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You hear reactionaries complain about "woke" films and TV shows. But what makes a film woke exactly? We can start with the obvious stereotypes-any story whose subject matter is centered on people or concepts that are not heterosexual, white, and cis male. Anything politically left also gets lumped into this group as well. But there's a lot more to allegations of "wokeness" than just all that. I get the sense that because they assume "go woke go broke", if a film was unsuccessful it was obviously because they arbitrarily decided to shoehorn in actors and concepts that worked against the story itself. Either it was a remake/adaptation ruined by actors that don't look/act anything like the source material, or it's a new story that is too "political". Wokeness also follows the One Drop rule; even a drop of Wokeness makes the whole movie ruined according to detractors. Sometimes it feels like people are rather inconsistent about what makes a movie woke too. Is there some kind of bechdel test for a woke movies? The success of films like Minions 2 and Top Gun:Maverick get treated as an indictment on wokeness, the idea that if they only focused on the STORY and kept the characters faithful to the source material, it will be very successful. But how does this contrast with successful woke movies?
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Aug 9, 2022 22:00
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I automatically assume someone is a bigot if they say a film, or anything for that matter, is too woke. I don't know if that's fair to jump to conclusions like that, but whatever I guess.
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Aug 9, 2022 22:11
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John Yossarian posted:I automatically assume someone is a bigot if they say a film, or anything for that matter, is too woke. I don't know if that's fair to jump to conclusions like that, but whatever I guess.
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Aug 9, 2022 22:50
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Are there women in the movie? People of colour? Minority representation at all, no matter how milquetoast? Congrats your movie is woke, in the eyes of the people who throw that word around as an insult. If the movie doesn't make money they point to the "wokeness" as the reason, regardless if it was a bad movie that wouldn't have made money no matter what. If the movie makes money or is even just good, they conveniently pretend they never predicted its failure or talked about it all so they don't have to reflect on their behaviour. Panfilo posted:
Just lol if you think these people have any consistency or enough self awareness at all to even think about it. Once their anger about one movie fades they'll move onto the next movie or show that allows them to stay angry. And if they like a movie they'll come up with reasons why the "wokeness" (ie, a female lead) worked, and if they didn't like a movie they'll point to the "forced diversity" of having a female lead as the reason. They're just angry and they don't self interrogate their own thoughts. I'm fairly sure there's too much lead in the drinking water at their homes. They're stupid people and trying to apply logic to anything they're saying is a losing battle. If in Top Gun, if instead of goose's son it was goose's daughter, and literally nothing else about the movie was different, all dialogue and plot identical, these people would have been screaming bloody murder about Top Gun going "woke". Mad Max fury road is apparently woke because Furiosa shot the cannibal guy instead of Max. If it was a dude playing that character they would have been dead silent. They just hate women. They're not worth thinking about OP. stratdax fucked around with this message at 00:03 on Aug 10, 2022 |
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Aug 9, 2022 23:41
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Yeah, the only people out there quantifying “wokeness” wrt media are doing so only because they have a culture war axe to grind. It’s not worth devoting much thought to because it’s so disingenuous.
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Aug 10, 2022 00:52
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They're fine with minorities, but it's narrowly defined. The Blade trilogy has a black protagonist yet they wouldn't consider it a woke series. They like the Alien franchise but I don't think they'd view it as positively if it were a new series. These are their fallbacks if you accuse them of racism. Battle Angel Alita is acceptable to them, and really they jumped the gun on hating on Furiosa since in the actual story Max had physically overpowered her in spite of being half dead, and later Max has to save her life when she gets badly wounded. Ghostbusters is a popular target for them, and I think it has more to do with them taking exception to trying to use accusations of bigotry to ignore genuinely badly written movies. Another example is the upcoming lord of the rings series. Regardless of casting choices the costumes are rather cheap looking and they seem worried about the idea of using a beloved franchise as a soapbox for the directors political views.
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Aug 10, 2022 01:49
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https://twitter.com/Chukwu77/status/1555790413684002817?t=hltywa8Uy8UgV3iZ4aoUkw&s=19
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Aug 10, 2022 03:41
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I bet they’ll cite the wolf Predator who single handedly killed so many drat aliens and even squashed one with his foot and didn’t burn his foot off.
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Aug 10, 2022 04:32
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The internal logic of the Predator franchise should not be used to prove or disprove anything because it becomes a pretty big mess when you think about it even a little.
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Aug 10, 2022 04:54
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A woke film is one that panders to liberals (or "libs" as they're sometimes called). It's an extremely obvious aesthetic even if it's hard to define.
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Aug 10, 2022 05:07
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found the Chud.
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Aug 10, 2022 05:46
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Panfilo posted:They're fine with minorities, but it's narrowly defined. The Blade trilogy has a black protagonist yet they wouldn't consider it a woke series. They like the Alien franchise but I don't think they'd view it as positively if it were a new series. These are their fallbacks if you accuse them of racism. You've put more thought into their actions than they have. They have the self awareness of a sea cucumber.
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Aug 10, 2022 05:49
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Panfilo posted:You hear reactionaries complain about "woke" films and TV shows. But what makes a film woke exactly? It's a giant catch-all phrase. Portraying multiculturalism and/or miscegenation as neutral/good. Anti-police rhetoric, lack of edgy and overt racism, cynical and unpatriotic stuff are all things that can get that label. A lack of minority criminals. Not allowing white characters to scream that one word when they get angry. That was once commonplace in the 1980s and earlier and a lot in that cohort are pining for those days again. Also, any films that contain actors/actresses/directors/musical artists et al. who are affiliated with any of the above things. Panfilo posted:The success of films like Minions 2 and Top Gun:Maverick get treated as an indictment on wokeness, the idea that if they only focused on the STORY and kept the characters faithful to the source material, it will be very successful. But how does this contrast with successful woke movies? The ideological go-tos. It'll either be ignored or dismissed. I remember reading rightist comments about how Black Panther was going to be an epical failure etc. When it made a ton of money it was just because "all those liberal schools were busing kids in. They'd never do that for John Carter!" Now a lot would say that was far from a woke film but for some the mere fact of non-whites as leads is enough.
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Aug 10, 2022 05:50
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stratdax posted:found the Chud. If you want to take about Woke Films at all you're automatically forced to take the perspective of a Chud. It's a chud category, they make the rules.
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Aug 10, 2022 06:53
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Also, shouldn't it be a good thing for a film to be woke? To at least try to address systemic racism, the existence of queer people, etc? Those things in of themselves are no guarantee a movie will be good but are still preferable to the alternative. If chuds hate a movie it certainly makes me more interested in it. The mention of Black Panther is funny because that movie is also part of their rhetoric. Blackwashing is OK but whitewashing is bad, and they don't like that double standard. If you try to justify the existence of black people in Arendelle to them, they'll snap back at how much more outrage there would be if a black panther remake had T'Challa be Caucasian. There was a crazy person online that complained about the lack of poc in Brave and reactionaries seem to ape those disingenuous claims. You're right that they often lack the ability to read between the lines. From a critical standpoint, it's also a cop out to say a movie was bad solely due to the demographics of the cast, it's not like they'd enjoy it any more if they got exactly what they wanted (Big Joel on YouTube talks about the very generic Christmas movies that get released from hallmark, and the Pureflix library which are all extremely paint by numbers.)
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Aug 10, 2022 11:32
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Panfilo posted:Also, shouldn't it be a good thing for a film to be woke? To at least try to address systemic racism, the existence of queer people, etc? Those things in of themselves are no guarantee a movie will be good but are still preferable to the alternative. If chuds hate a movie it certainly makes me more interested in it. To an extant. I don't think a movie is made good solely by having politics I might agree with (or vice versa). I think there are a lot of Hollywood movies that want credit for addressing important issues but are just overly didactic and shallow. Crash is a famous example.
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Aug 10, 2022 12:02
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Panfilo posted:https://twitter.com/Chukwu77/status/1555790413684002817?t=hltywa8Uy8UgV3iZ4aoUkw&s=19 The first tweet is a pretty good microcosm of this imo, it has a lot of the key hallmarks. 1) It’s obvious they didn’t see the new movie 2) they’re misremembering the old movie or may not have ever seen at all, but either way it’s clear they have no special connection to it because they don’t seem to know what’s going on and 3) it’s expressed in a way that makes me want to pants the guy who posted it and smash a beer bottle over their dorkass head.
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Aug 10, 2022 17:08
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Panfilo posted:Also, shouldn't it be a good thing for a film to be woke? To at least try to address systemic racism, the existence of queer people, etc? Those things in of themselves are no guarantee a movie will be good but are still preferable to the alternative. If chuds hate a movie it certainly makes me more interested in it. stratdax posted:found the Chud. Certainly, the “anti-woke” discourse is largely driven by right-wing reaction, but there are valid leftist critiques to be made in addressing its particular construction centered on identity politics and critical race theory.
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Aug 10, 2022 20:36
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Panfilo posted:They're fine with minorities, but it's narrowly defined. The Blade trilogy has a black protagonist yet they wouldn't consider it a woke series. They like the Alien franchise but I don't think they'd view it as positively if it were a new series. These are their fallbacks if you accuse them of racism. It's important to remember that a lot of the parents and grandparents of those now saying "go woke go broke" did not receive Alien and Star Wars or New Hollywood well (or even Old Hollywood). A lot of them were segregationists who'd look at Lando and ask why he was Han's friend and ran a city rather than being some strange alien cut down with a light saber. Likewise, with Alien it'd be "Why is Parker allowed on that ship and why is he allowed to flirt with Lambert?" For the next generation, the more younger/socialized audiences that stuff would be subtle and laughable if questioned. Blacks/whites talking or being friends is okay but for those picketing against school integration and interracial marriage it'd stick out noticeably. You won't find these questions on the Internet too often because the people who thought that are really old to be posting about it and there's much bigger fish to fry now. Their deprecated slogans won't work anymore either. That's why you won't find many mainstream politicians campaigning on things like "Don't mix the races!" Things are a lot more coded and vague now.
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Aug 10, 2022 20:48
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Woke originally just meant being aware of racists systems of oppression about police, more in the sense of being cautious. Its reemergence in the 2010s with the BLM movement led to a broader adoption of understanding systems of oppression by anyone and less about specific marginalized groups being careful. And then it adopted by Conservatives as just a blanket term that basically just means PC. Anyway the point is that like "Cancelled," "woke" is another piece of evidence that Black people can't just have an idle thought before white people over analyze, co-op, and then weirdly demonize it. There is no such thing as woke cinema because that misunderstands the original intent of the word.
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Aug 10, 2022 20:52
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Panfilo posted:Also, shouldn't it be a good thing for a film to be woke? To at least try to address systemic racism, the existence of queer people, etc? Those things in of themselves are no guarantee a movie will be good but are still preferable to the alternative. If chuds hate a movie it certainly makes me more interested in it. Mantis42 posted:To an extant. I don't think a movie is made good solely by having politics I might agree with (or vice versa). I think there are a lot of Hollywood movies that want credit for addressing important issues but are just overly didactic and shallow. Crash is a famous example. Yes, there's usually an assumption that the really woke films will be extremely preachy and didactic. Propaganda is a turnoff for a lot of viewers no matter what viewpoints are being presented (even if they agree with it). Panfilo posted:The mention of Black Panther is funny because that movie is also part of their rhetoric. Blackwashing is OK but whitewashing is bad, and they don't like that double standard. If you try to justify the existence of black people in Arendelle to them, they'll snap back at how much more outrage there would be if a black panther remake had T'Challa be Caucasian. There was a crazy person online that complained about the lack of poc in Brave and reactionaries seem to ape those disingenuous claims. Yeah, there are a lot of blind spots. Another odd complaint was that "no African society could ever have that technology." Meanwhile, this disregards the countless films with white protagonists wielding all kinds of magical weapons and technologies and doing superhuman things, time travel etc. That's never met with "no European society could ever!" e.g. TRON:Legacy is possible but only with captains of industry located in the US.
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Aug 10, 2022 20:55
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ironically, Black Panther is a pretty good example of a (pejoratively) "woke" film from a leftist perspective because it uncritically portrays the CIA agent as a good guy. it's just never for the dumbass reasons reactionaries are mad about. it's usually because the movie itself cloaks itself in a specific language of progressivism while having conservative messaging throughout. I don't really find it worthwhile to engage in that kind of criticism because 1. lol its a movie and 2. reactionaries have made it hard to have good faith discussions about that criticism
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Aug 10, 2022 21:06
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Famethrowa posted:ironically, Black Panther is a pretty good example of a (pejoratively) "woke" film from a leftist perspective because it uncritically portrays the CIA agent as a good guy. Starship Troopers probably wouldn't get panned as a woke movie, though a lot of Nazis that enjoyed it didn't seem to catch the films indictment of fascism. I know that has been discussed at length. Captain Marvel was mainly panned by reactionaries because of Brie Larson's remarks-meanwhile the film itself served as propiganda for Lockheed Martin and the air force.
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Aug 10, 2022 21:29
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There's no point in trying to define what makes a movie "woke" because the people who use the term as an insult are never going to be consistent about it. It has almost nothing to do with the politics of the film but the politics of the viewer, who are not concerned with the text of the film at all but rather outside culture war stuff. No one calling a movie "too woke" cares about what's in the movie they just want to be mad.
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Aug 10, 2022 21:53
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stratdax posted:found the Chud. Not necessarily, this is a valid critique from the Left and if you think otherwise then you're basically ceding power to Hollywood which is LMAO for example Tolkien's world is deeply christian and paleoconservative, a literal reskin won't change the message here.
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Aug 11, 2022 00:33
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Flying Zamboni posted:There's no point in trying to define what makes a movie "woke" because the people who use the term as an insult are never going to be consistent about it. It has almost nothing to do with the politics of the film but the politics of the viewer, who are not concerned with the text of the film at all but rather outside culture war stuff. It's this. The "woke" label is applied after the fact once conservatives take notice of a film and its possible relevance in the culture war, and they are craven enough that the definition will change to suit their needs whenever possible. There is absolutely zero logical reason why Lightyear, a film with a single same-sex kiss taking up half a second of the far background of one shot, is more "woke" than Alita Battle Angel, whose protagonist is a Latina woman and carries themes of class warfare, except for the fact that Captain Marvel (the film Alita was presented as a "non-woke" alternative to by some fans) starred an actress who directly addressed sexism in the film industry and they got to hold up CGI Rosa Salazar as "one of the good ones." It's also reached a kind of cultural saturation where people use it to describe anything that annoys them for reasons they don't have the vocabulary to expound upon. When people say Ghostbusters 2016 was "woke," what they actually mean was that they were turned off by attempts to use identity politics as a marketing strategy - and given it is a strategy, there are as many examples of it succeeding as there are of it failing. When "anti-woke" people parrot "get woke go broke," and then list a bunch of movies that failed because of "wokeness," they are conveniently leaving out that at least half of "woke" movies have actually been very successful, but they don't consider them to be "woke" because they didn't notice the marketing appeal, which is kind of the goal of marketing. By all definitions of "woke," extremely successful movies like Black Panther, Get Out, and The Lion King meet it, but are never listed as such because they were successfully marketed - so you can view the accusation of being "woke" as just a failure of marketing, which is also why it tends to happen most often in franchises that shake up their formula to involve less white, male, or heteronormative elements - much to the dismay of the expectations of those already attached to the franchise. Pirate Jet fucked around with this message at 00:59 on Aug 11, 2022 |
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Aug 11, 2022 00:56
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Flying Zamboni posted:There's no point in trying to define what makes a movie "woke" because the people who use the term as an insult are never going to be consistent about it. It has almost nothing to do with the politics of the film but the politics of the viewer, who are not concerned with the text of the film at all but rather outside culture war stuff. Especially because a lot of people who yell about such things basically use the same script each time, presumably in hopes that they'll strike gold with something people are outraged about. It's a total bore!
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Aug 11, 2022 01:09
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Every accusation of "wokeness" I see online only reminds me of that interview Jack Albertson (Uncle Joe from Willy Wonka) gave in the 60s decrying the end of blackface acting in film
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Aug 11, 2022 01:47
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Famethrowa posted:ironically, Black Panther is a pretty good example of a (pejoratively) "woke" film from a leftist perspective because it uncritically portrays the CIA agent as a good guy. It's further confusing because many in the US have a strong love/hate relationship with the three letter agencies depending on the recent year and circumstances of a specific case. Panfilo posted:There's quite a few examples of this, actually. The Hunt is a fun example; on the surface it was about Conservatives being hunted by Democrats when the twist was Betty Gilpin's character being kidnapped by accident because she had the same name as the intended victim, and the Liberal antagonists are all depicted as being craven and incompetent.. Many have watched Falling Down but conveniently ignore the last few minutes. I remember reading that some thought Zootopia was pure strain woke propaganda at its release but then The Angry Birds Movie being the polar opposite. Almost like the two factions having an option to choose for their kids. I haven't seen the latter so IDK. Then there's lots of people discussing films at length and they haven't seen them at all. The Last Temptation Of Christ and Cuties immediately come to mind as two lightning rods of controversy. The detractors (for the most part) refuse to watch them.
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Aug 11, 2022 05:01
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Pirate Jet posted:There is absolutely zero logical reason why Lightyear, a film with a single same-sex kiss taking up half a second of the far background of one shot, is more "woke" than Alita Battle Angel, whose protagonist is a Latina woman and carries themes of class warfare, except for the fact that Captain Marvel (the film Alita was presented as a "non-woke" alternative to by some fans) starred an actress who directly addressed sexism in the film industry and they got to hold up CGI Rosa Salazar as "one of the good ones." Kissing scenes definitely set off alarm bells for many. The infamous Star Trek kiss from the 1960s scared some so much that it was banned in areas for years AFAIR. By the time Shatner and Iman did the same thing in the early 1990s (the sixth Star Trek film) I don't believe there was big controversy. Anecdotally, I saw that in the theaters and there weren't any big gasps. OTOH, 25 years later when Daisy Ridley and John Boyega did there was some guy nearby who let out a loud "You gotta be kidding me."
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Aug 11, 2022 05:13
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Rey and Finn never kissed.
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Aug 11, 2022 05:33
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Yeah, I meant when Rey put her lips to Finn's forehead.
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Aug 11, 2022 05:47
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Zogo posted:Yes, there's usually an assumption that the really woke films will be extremely preachy and didactic. Propaganda is a turnoff for a lot of viewers no matter what viewpoints are being presented (even if they agree with it).
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Aug 11, 2022 06:45
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War and Pieces posted:Not necessarily, this is a valid critique from the Left and if you think otherwise then you're basically ceding power to Hollywood which is LMAO I think people can and should make those criticisms without using “woke” to describe it because it’s become another word used by right wing pundits to keep meemaw and peepaw on the couch running out the clock to their network. It’s painful.
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Aug 11, 2022 11:43
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I get annoyed when they have some random side character be a minority/ gay/ not neuro-typical, but don’t develop the character in any way. They’re just there as something to check off the list. For example the new Buzz Lightyear movie. It felt very artificial and tacked on. I would have liked to see Pixar take the Paranorman approach instead. One of the main characters at the very end just drops a line about how he has a boyfriend. I think it would have been really cool if Buzz perhaps had the same treatment rather than some disposable side character who ended up being fairly one dimensional. Or maybe that’s too woke?
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Aug 11, 2022 11:56
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I think that I have an issue when people treat critique like categorization. Categorizing films as Leftist or Libshit isn't necessarily helpful critique for example. I think Black Panther is a good example of a film with strong antipolice imagery, metatextual critiques of the placement of Black people in cinema, and such. It's also a film with a muddled but at times decisively positive depiction of the CIA, refuses to offer any actual solutions or take any real world political stances, and offers a plot that never deals with the real world ethics of violent anti-racism and anti-slavery revolts. And you can obviously critique how Black Panther is a product of Marvel and Disney's relationship with Conservatives, Disney's history of racism, its dual role as a mass market product, etc. But categorization limits the lenses that you can view the film from which I think is one of the things that limits internet discourse, the view that there is one true critique or read of a film instead of the film as multifaceted thing that can be seen differently when you look at it from different angles. And categorization becomes problematic because the categories mean different things from different people. Not just in the sense that a Conservative would describe a film as leftist a pejorative and might have a wider umbrella of what being leftist includes, but in how many leftists will handwave a vague notion of "identity politics" as not really a key component of leftism. In the end when someone from the Left is calling a movie woke they usually mean that it is a movie that is trying to cash-in on recent trends instead of meaningful challenge systems or offer something subversive, and I'm not saying that doesn't happen because it clearly does and should be critiqued. But Woke was not intended as a badge of being smart or the most liberal. It was a descriptor of the quality of being aware of the systems of oppression that exist everyday that can risk the lives of marginalized people, specifically police. You saw Black twitter use it in a way that led well meaning white people to use it more broadly, but then saw Conservatives co-op it for a dogwhistle in their fake thirty year PC-battle. A lot of conservatives, or at least the ones the thread is generally talking about, do not believe by and large in the authenticity of politics rooted in altruism or challenging of systems. For them it's always just a fake game to accumulate power somehow. So, I don't actually think there is a leftist way to use woke as the pejorative because at best categorization is one of the lowest levels of critical thinking and so do better, but at worst you're just propagating right wing framing. t;ldr Just explain why Black Panther is an op instead of calling it woke with quotation marks. Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 03:24 on Aug 19, 2022 |
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Aug 11, 2022 13:13
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It may present itself as a general awareness of systemic oppression, but it isn’t in actuality abstract at all — to perceive leftist criticism as pointless sectarian violence is to deny that woke/identity politics contains a specific historical structure of the human subject that follows in the theoretical tradition of Michel Foucault. This mode of thought is reflected in your resistance to categories such that overly principled readings of films places unnecessary limits on their boundless potential. But the point is not to deny that a film can be endlessly interpreted in different ways, but to assert that they are not all (equally) substantive relative to the text. In other words, the rejection of categories/universals deprives us of the ability to think politically, in exchange for the infinite play of difference.
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Aug 11, 2022 17:22
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Timeless Appeal posted:I think that I have an issue when people treat critique like categorization. Categorizing films as Leftist or Libshit isn't necessarily helpful critique for example. I think Black Panther is a good example of a film with strong antipolice imagery, metatextual critiques of the placement of Black people in cinema, and such. It's also a film with a muddled but at times decisively positive depiction of the CIA, refuses to offer any actual solutions or take any real world political stances, and offers a plot that never deals with the real world ethics of violent anti-racism and anti-slavery revolts. And you can obviously critique how Black Panther is a product of Marvel and Disney's relationship with Conservatives, Disney's history of racism, its dual role as a mass market product, etc.
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Aug 11, 2022 17:51
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Conservatives use it interchangeably to describe anything that they believe has progressive (ie bad) views. The "they believe" is the key point here, because it allows for a massive amount of flexibility. Within a week you're going to see someone describe the FBI as "woke" (If they haven't already done that) and things like Silence of the Lambs or Seven will be decried as "woke movies" for showing FBI agents in lead roles. I think, once upon a time, it stemmed from the idea that media was consciously diversifying their casts and adding more obviously progressive themes in an attempt to appeal to people. But even that mostly stems from conservatives projecting their own prejudices and acting like everyone agrees with them while willfully ignoring things that contradict you. If you hate women, and I mean truly hate women like some people do, you're gonna say that Prey is the worst Predator movie because there's no way A GIRL could take down the Predator, and movies used to be SO MUCH BETTER before they had to pander to women. To keep this lie going you have to ignore the Terminator franchise, the Alien franchise, and a massive amount of horror movies. It also means that you have to watch a movie like The Predator and say "yup, this is exactly what movies should be".
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Aug 11, 2022 19:33
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It feels like woke tends to be shorthand for any idea that says the status quo is kinda hosed.Timeless Appeal posted:Woke originally just meant being aware of racists systems of oppression about police, more in the sense of being cautious. Its reemergence in the 2010s with the BLM movement led to a broader adoption of understanding systems of oppression by anyone and less about specific marginalized groups being careful. And then it adopted by Conservatives as just a blanket term that basically just means PC. Yeah. Especially that last sentence. Narzack fucked around with this message at 20:08 on Aug 11, 2022 |
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Aug 11, 2022 20:06
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