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Mantis42 posted:Well the first prerequisite with that is making sure what's being made is actually a story being told by a storyteller, you know. With most Marvel movies or Star Wars or whatever does it matter who the director is or what the cast looks like if it's not being made to explore an idea or convey any sort of personal truth? The casts and crew get more diverse but there's less intellectual diversity over time. I think it's a fair critique, but one that can lead to buying into the very narrative it's critiquing.
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Oct 11, 2022 03:47
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It might be because I love the film (and play), but I always considered 12 Angry Men a pointed commentary on how easily white America is willing to drat it's minority youths. There's even a line referring to the accused Puerto Rican boy with, "You know how they are."
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Oct 11, 2022 04:12
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KVeezy3 posted:Certainly, but the final part of this tripartite is representation as a tool of oppression, in the reassertion of an order with an outsized effect to those same people. Even taken idealistically, the end goal appears to be the uniform distribution of oppression/exploitation along diverse lines. The use of race/gender rhetoric to undermine and attack class-based rhetoric is also a key part. I don't even need to get into 'Bernie Bros', or how 'Intersectionality' was dropped like a hot potato by so many people once 'intersectionality includes class' came up. See also #Girlboss, make that money Obama, etc.
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Oct 11, 2022 07:07
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Timeless Appeal posted:I think it's a valid point, but one that I think shouldn't be used as a bludgeon. Disney deserves a lot of poo poo, but we can also mistakenly run right into their own desire for us to see a corporation as a person. An example was the point made in this thread about how Disney puts in lovely and meaningless "gay" moments just to get press while not really telling gay narratives. Once you actually do some research though, there actually were creators who were pushing really hard for those choices against the corporation. She-Hulk-- which according to Youtube is the new low of wokeness for Disney-- has a good showrunner and a great star who've made something fun and interesting.
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Oct 11, 2022 12:28
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Jaxyon posted:A good post. There's numerous great examples of movies that are misogynist but also pass the Bechdel. Ita actually hard to remember now that "Karen" was initially "suburban cul de sac white mom who calls the police on black people minding their own business." The Right tried hard, hard to call any leftist woman that, and still are, but it hasn't quite caught on like woke did.
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Oct 12, 2022 01:09
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Woke began when Trump was gaining popularity. His fans called themselves woke because they could finally see the light in Trump. Somewhere it flipped, probably on one of the chans, and it became an insult to include anything that wasn't white straight male. Someone mentioned Blade wasn't considered woke. I'd argue it most definitely would be if it was released to day, and i'm sure conservatives in the 70s had issues back then as well - it just wasn't a main stream issue as much as Capt. Kirk kissing Uhura was at the time in that era.
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Oct 12, 2022 16:58
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Philthy posted:Woke began when Trump was gaining popularity. His fans called themselves woke because they could finally see the light in Trump. Somewhere it flipped, probably on one of the chans, and it became an insult to include anything that wasn't white straight male. Someone mentioned Blade wasn't considered woke. I'd argue it most definitely would be if it was released to day, and i'm sure conservatives in the 70s had issues back then as well - it just wasn't a main stream issue as much as Capt. Kirk kissing Uhura was at the time in that era. Woke definitely did not begin this way. Is this a joke? Also, the Blade character is nearly fifty years old and has always been black. It's not a case of a POC or woman actor being cast in the role of a traditionally white legacy character, which seems to be one of the most common scenarios wherein media is referred to as "woke" pejoratively. If Blade were released today and people labeled the film "woke" merely because its about a black vampire hunter, those are the dumbest people in the world and nobody should pay attention to them.
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Oct 12, 2022 18:03
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I think they’re confusing the red pill appropriation of MRA folks with being woke, or are a bot.
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Oct 12, 2022 18:04
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Philthy posted:...and i'm sure conservatives in the 70s had issues back then as well - it just wasn't a main stream issue as much as Capt. Kirk kissing Uhura was at the time in that era. Yeah, it doesn't get mentioned much now but if you go back to the 1970s and earlier a high percentage of conservatives weren't even engaging with movies, TV, music etc. Star Wars actually opened the floodgates in this respect. Nowadays the religious right is on board and not afraid to step into a theater or own a television.
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Oct 12, 2022 21:41
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Rental Sting posted:If Blade were released today and people labeled the film "woke" merely because its about a black vampire hunter, those are the dumbest people in the world and nobody should pay attention to them. I think you missed Black Panther. It is absolutely what is happening today. Any person other than a straight white male is "woke". We are a month away from including other than blonde hair and blue eyes as well.
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Oct 13, 2022 19:58
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Philthy posted:I think you missed Black Panther. It is absolutely what is happening today. Any person other than a straight white male is "woke". We are a month away from including other than blonde hair and blue eyes as well. This is a pretty good example of where social media white people are at: 
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Oct 13, 2022 21:05
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Philthy posted:I think you missed Black Panther. It is absolutely what is happening today. Any person other than a straight white male is "woke". We are a month away from including other than blonde hair and blue eyes as well. Indeed, I saw somebody go on a tear that Marvel should do a white version of a super advanced secret society, perhaps called Thule. The obvious was pointed out to him nearly immediately.
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Oct 13, 2022 21:52
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I feel like Black Panther has to be a special case, given that those people came around and celebrated the movie for being ideologically aligned with them after having watched it/being told what it was about. Which I suppose means they can actually identify with non-white protagonists/stories, they just need to be steeped in a specifically American type of race essentialism.
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Oct 14, 2022 05:29
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A common complaint I see about films that that used an existing IP but changed the race/gender of some characters is idea that a new character dynamic would be better served as a new film in itself. Once they get to that point, they can go back and claim that the people who make "woke" movies are creatively bankrupt, since they want to settle for taking an existing story and changing it to their liking rather than coming up with an entirely new one independent of that IP. Recently on Twitter I saw nerds arguing that the lack of success/cancelation of a recent Scooby-Doo remake was because they made Velma Indian and queer. Why change it so much instead of just having a standalone story about a queer Indian girl that solves mysteries? They ask. This is part of a greater reactionary theory that claims many animated series that recently got canceled or utterly memory holed was solely due to it being "too woke" and by going out of their way to make it "woke" instead of "good" they sabotaged their own efforts. Then they'll often compare it to anime/manga to try to prove that the Japanese counterparts to these showrunners actually got their jobs on merit and not due to affirmative action, and that's why you can have anime with poc/queer characters without it being woke and bad 
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Oct 14, 2022 13:20
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Don't try to make sense of their arguments, there isn't any. Especially when Japan is involved.
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Oct 14, 2022 13:40
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Panfilo posted:A common complaint I see about films that that used an existing IP but changed the race/gender of some characters is idea that a new character dynamic would be better served as a new film in itself. Once they get to that point, they can go back and claim that the people who make "woke" movies are creatively bankrupt, since they want to settle for taking an existing story and changing it to their liking rather than coming up with an entirely new one independent of that IP. There are varying degrees of ignorance but it's still ignorance. Stories are constantly being ripped off and remolded into things that are palatable for modern/domestic audiences. And that audience includes every single person who ascribes to brokeness via wokeness. A lot of them have fooled themselves into thinking their favorite thing is some 100% original work of art. It's not. Going back to authenticity. Conservatives love war films but if you actually put a few hundred of them in a theater and showed them 100% authentic battles many would be sick and horrified. It'd be rated NC-17 (or banned) and have some of the most horrifying/nasty stuff that most couldn't even imagine. I remember meeting with a guy who survived The Battle of the Bulge and the unfiltered stories from actual veterans is the stuff nightmares are made of. It'll never be reenacted on film as it'd be highly offensive to even most edgelords.
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Oct 14, 2022 22:55
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Panfilo posted:A common complaint I see about films that that used an existing IP but changed the race/gender of some characters is idea that a new character dynamic would be better served as a new film in itself. Once they get to that point, they can go back and claim that the people who make "woke" movies are creatively bankrupt, since they want to settle for taking an existing story and changing it to their liking rather than coming up with an entirely new one independent of that IP. I do agree that hollywood should tell stories that are culturally based in minority experiences rather than *just* casting a PoC into a role that is still fundamentally a white story, because hollywood should not be just white euro storeis with diverse casting. But that's not the argument those people are making. It's just a cover for them being mad that something that was "white" is being "taken" from them, and that PoC should be...uh...separate but equal(and they don't really want equal). Mostly seperate.
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Oct 14, 2022 23:03
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Jaxyon posted:The fact that it was popularized by a white academic is part of white supremacy, yes. It's not a new concept and it's essentially a white woman selling things that black people have been saying for a long time, which white people are more willing to listen to because it comes from a white mouth. Specifically, the concept of white fragility (along with its sister term “white privilege”) are formally aligned with a distinct brand of white feminism. Much more generally, the approach can be traced back to Booker T. Washington in the treatment of racism as pure pathology. Timeless Appeal posted:I don't think that has to be the intent of widening diversity and representation at all, although you're right that some or many people view things that way. That may not be what people intend, but in the absence of articulating specific structural changes, one necessarily opens up the space for it to be easily co-opted. Of course co-option can happen to almost anything, but then we should be able to articulate/refine a cogent response. It was rudimentary for corporations to integrate diversity & white fragility/privilege discourse into their operations, and the results have been rather dubious; but what isn't is their improved ability to legally protect themselves, while still being able to profit from and reassert a racist society. To be clear, I’m not saying that diverse stories don’t have value, but that it should be properly contextualized as media. If one is going to critique white supremacy in films, it must necessarily go deeper than skin, considering that diversity can also be a tool of white supremacy. In aesthetic theory, some Marxists straight-forwardly locate an art object’s value in its capacity to resist the market — despite the film landscape being awash with fantastical/alien worlds, they are largely indistinguishable from our own. With The Northman, while undoubtedly benefiting from the whiteness of its story/cast in getting funded, we do get an encounter of something actually alien to our sensibilities, along with a critique of the mythic individual and his subjectivity contrasted with the economic/labor relations of the story. Ghost Leviathan posted:The use of race/gender rhetoric to undermine and attack class-based rhetoric is also a key part. I don't even need to get into 'Bernie Bros', or how 'Intersectionality' was dropped like a hot potato by so many people once 'intersectionality includes class' came up. See also #Girlboss, make that money Obama, etc. I think the geopolitical analogue is neocolonialism, where a country is allowed to keep its cultural signifiers (Language, religions, indigenous leaders, etc.), but the capacity for self-determination (Labor workforce, factories, natural resources etc.) is hollowed out.
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Oct 14, 2022 23:21
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KVeezy3 posted:Specifically, the concept of white fragility (along with its sister term “white privilege”) are formally aligned with a distinct brand of white feminism. Much more generally, the approach can be traced back to Booker T. Washington in the treatment of racism as pure pathology. That's why i asked you what terms you prefer.
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Oct 14, 2022 23:47
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KVeezy3 posted:I think the geopolitical analogue is neocolonialism, where a country is allowed to keep its cultural signifiers (Language, religions, indigenous leaders, etc.), but the capacity for self-determination (Labor workforce, factories, natural resources etc.) is hollowed out. Oh, that's a good one. It's all the same poo poo in the long run, where only neutered and harmless expressions by smiling, helpless minorities are acceptable, in ways that are very specifically not a threat to aspirational capitalism. You can only have perfect victims of the completely inexplicable contagion of bigotry. Now I'm weirdly reminded of how Japan's economic crash was basically being ordered by the US to commit economic suicide, and Europe is now following suit.
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Oct 15, 2022 06:08
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People complaining that films are "woke" because they simply include a diverse cast (see 4chan, Rings of Power YouTube commentators, etc.) are so aggravating. Are people really plainly this bigoted and weirdly white nationalist? I hate how far the overton window has seemingly been pushed right to where these people even have a platform and recurring views -- why isn't everyone laughing them out of the room.
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Oct 15, 2022 21:49
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Snuff Melange posted:People complaining that films are "woke" because they simply include a diverse cast (see 4chan, Rings of Power YouTube commentators, etc.) are so aggravating. Are people really plainly this bigoted and weirdly white nationalist? I hate how far the overton window has seemingly been pushed right to where these people even have a platform and recurring views -- why isn't everyone laughing them out of the room. Disaffected youths (and loser adults) latch on to people talking about how their failures are not their own fault or those they were brought up to support but instead others in society screwing them over instead. "Woke" culture stuff is "they're taking our jobs" just applied to media. Every generation has this; the Internet just gives it a more obvious platform. Generally, otherwise, we wouldn't even be seeing this until people organized to march or politically organize around it.
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Oct 16, 2022 16:56
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Rings of Power would get a lot less criticism if it were good
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Oct 17, 2022 13:22
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War and Pieces posted:Rings of Power would get a lot less criticism if it were good  I've now had multiple conversations with people comparing Rings with House of the Dragon. And yeah, it turns out that despite both being spinoffs of more famous fantasy properties, the latter still attempts to draw interesting characters and has a propulsive plot while RoP is a billion-dollar exercise in if people will watch 10 hours of material indirectly relating to events they legally cannot depict. Shockingly, the "can elves or magic dragon people be Black" question did not really speak to the quality of either series.
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Oct 17, 2022 20:48
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Here's another example of a person claiming anime isn't 'woke' because Shounen anime is the only media that depicts 'traditional' men. https://twitter.com/305Independent/status/1576245003151556608?t=pBrIBFeNclBwn3B9VX9P1w&s=19 Here's a guy claiming Naruto is channeling Jordan Peterson https://twitter.com/ReedMichaelMc/status/1582040625402490880?t=jCfv74FvvXUgGt2i92xJVw&s=19
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Oct 17, 2022 20:57
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In what universe is Naruto about upholding tradition? He deliberately bucks it out of spite for the established order because the establishment treats him like poo poo, then breaks the taboo of the tailed beasts by actively working to release them from human control, which has been one of the things keeping the ninja wars in check for centuries Every major fight is basically the present cast fighting people from further and further back in ninja history so that they can be free to do anything BUT what they did.
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Oct 17, 2022 21:04
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War and Pieces posted:Rings of Power would get a lot less criticism if it were good Rings of Power IS good. The investment in "RoP is bad!!! bad!!" indicates there's a lot of stuff going on that isn't necessarily an objective review of the show.
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Oct 17, 2022 21:17
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Naruto's first kiss was Sasuke.
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Oct 17, 2022 23:46
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The 'anime is not political' because I guess they think Japan has no politics remains hilarious.
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Oct 18, 2022 00:37
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To them politics is when you say things you know aren’t true so that you win points with people and to get cute girls to like you.
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Oct 18, 2022 00:42
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I AM GRANDO posted:To them politics is when you say things you know aren’t true so that you win points with people and to get cute girls to like you. And then they say things they know aren't true to win points with their crowd and they still can't get the cute girls to like them, so they lash out
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Oct 18, 2022 00:57
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24 years since Skunk Anansie released "Yes It's loving Political" and chuds have yet to grasp that literally everything is political.
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Oct 18, 2022 01:04
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I AM GRANDO posted:To them politics is when you say things you know aren’t true so that you win points with people and to get cute girls to like you. Politics is when a woman is black and in a movie.
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Oct 18, 2022 02:04
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BioEnchanted posted:In what universe is Naruto about upholding tradition? He deliberately bucks it out of spite for the established order because the establishment treats him like poo poo, then breaks the taboo of the tailed beasts by actively working to release them from human control, which has been one of the things keeping the ninja wars in check for centuries Every major fight is basically the present cast fighting people from further and further back in ninja history so that they can be free to do anything BUT what they did. They are dumb, BE. They are so, so dumb. And not the good kinda dumb, the type where you don't know about a thing, but then go on to try to learn about it, but the bad kind, whereby they reinforce their own dumbness for fear of analysis.
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Oct 18, 2022 09:17
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Lumbermouth posted:Politics is when a woman is black and in a movie. Woman in movie: Political Black woman in movie: Radically Political
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Oct 19, 2022 01:39
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Lol https://twitter.com/willsommer/status/1583092516186132481?t=8-9gdcHcK94WBN_1pEcbhQ&s=19
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Oct 20, 2022 18:48
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Panfilo posted:Lol Wow, it's like an episode of Leverage.
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Oct 20, 2022 19:59
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Dawgstar posted:The 'anime is not political' because I guess they think Japan has no politics remains hilarious. My "period" of anime was gnarly cyberpunk from 1988 on VHS tapes, but I remember bouncing off of it in my mid-teens because the sexual politics were usually pretty gross - of course, that's not true of all anime, but eroticised sexual threat was an incredibly common trope.
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Oct 22, 2022 13:59
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Disco Pope posted:My "period" of anime was gnarly cyberpunk from 1988 on VHS tapes, but I remember bouncing off of it in my mid-teens because the sexual politics were usually pretty gross - of course, that's not true of all anime, but eroticised sexual threat was an incredibly common trope. ...yeah, that's one of the reasons I couldn't get into it myself. I mean, now I know there are some which AREN'T like that, but all the stuff that I remember hearing about back in the day just made me feel real uncomfortable.
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Oct 22, 2022 15:11
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80s anime is... okay when you get down to it not really that much worse or better than 80s anything else pop culture for sexuality (or racism or so on, and doesn't help all this pop culture feeds into each other) but still tends to be pretty awfully lurid. Unfortunately like a lot of media it's the fringe stuff that often has the worst ageing and yet also some of the best and most progressive sexual themes, because it was all on the fringe back then. (the more horrible stuff less so)
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Oct 22, 2022 17:15
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