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Ghost Leviathan posted:Unfortunately like a lot of media it's the fringe stuff that often has the worst ageing and yet also some of the best and most progressive sexual themes, because it was all on the fringe back then. (the more horrible stuff less so) 80s anime in particular was when the "otaku" community was first firmly established and also when Japan was most glut from the economic bubble. There was a lot of money being thrown around pretty freely and a lot of amateurs vacuuming those funds up to produce either independent projects or studio projects with little over sight. It's not surprising that what that period produced stretched the full range from gross to progressive. (All that aside, gnarly cyberpunk having gross sexual politics is kind of part and parcel for the genre.)
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Oct 22, 2022 17:38
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I think something everyone missed is also that people tend to compare the best example of what they like to the worst example of what they dislike. So in propping up anime as some kind of anti woke apolitical paragon they are fixating on the media beloved by them. This content is, of course, "political" but the significance of it is that it exists in a form that is easy to ignore. In contrast, the content they dislike tends to have themes that are very "blatant" to them, is overly preachy, and pushes values they consider a threat to their status quo. They often have a big grudge against the "calarts" style and while many groups will groan about it, reactionaries seem to attribute the style with a particular ideology. This also then branches into conspiracy theories that "woke" artists can't bear the idea of conventionally attractive female protagonists-they have to be suitably dumpy looking, with hairy legs, buzz cuts, lumpy etc. So anime gets put in the 'good' category to them. Anime has plots that they like, and draws characters with proportions they find attractive. They feel the creators earn their place through merit and the shows/films are financially successful. Western animation gets put in the 'bad' category. It embraces art styles offensive to them, with themes that make them angry/uncomfortable. They think the showrunners got to where they were through affirmative action wokeness, and the lack of success of the content is a testament to that in their mind.
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Oct 22, 2022 17:50
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80s anime is interesting because it is still a little crude and there's a lot of B-movie genre mash-up stuff that I can definitely see being the most appealing to American audiences, because live action B-movies can't afford to do all this, etc. Lots of kinda grimy, kinda ornate films, still with gratuitous sex and violence, a lot of that is what got imported, with an eye towards the young male demo. Especially since at a certain age you're less likely to notice that they're constantly recycling frames and skimping on backgrounds or that all the sound effects are stolen from other movies.
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Oct 22, 2022 23:52
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To me anime will always be Vampire Hunter D, the Akira with ninja turtle-sounding Kaneda yelling “Tetsuo,” Robot Carnival, and that scene at the start of Bubblegum Crisis where a chick wakes up in her underwear while the radio talks about how hot it is. Thanks, Sci-Fi Channel.
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Oct 23, 2022 01:50
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Maxwell Lord posted:80s anime is interesting because it is still a little crude and there's a lot of B-movie genre mash-up stuff that I can definitely see being the most appealing to American audiences, because live action B-movies can't afford to do all this, etc. Lots of kinda grimy, kinda ornate films, still with gratuitous sex and violence, a lot of that is what got imported, with an eye towards the young male demo. Especially since at a certain age you're less likely to notice that they're constantly recycling frames and skimping on backgrounds or that all the sound effects are stolen from other movies. The whole reason anime took off so hard in the 90s in particular was because it presented something totally different from what cartoons were, as well as filling a niche of adolescent media that was officially completely empty then when kids were expected to 'graduate' to tween sitcoms or whatever. It was cheap, flawed and formulaic but in ways that Western audiences hadn't already gotten sick of.
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Oct 23, 2022 04:00
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Panfilo posted:So in propping up anime as some kind of anti woke apolitical paragon they are fixating on the media beloved by them. This content is, of course, "political" but the significance of it is that it exists in a form that is easy to ignore. In contrast, the content they dislike tends to have themes that are very "blatant" to them, is overly preachy, and pushes values they consider a threat to their status quo. That was the point I was trying and failing to make. Anime has politics, it's just chud weebs have no clue about actual Japanese politics so they miss any and all references and basically live out that meme of 'whoa cool robot!!' while the point sails over their head. A recent example of some series or other whose name escapes me had a trans character and they swore up and down the localizers added it in and she was trans originally.
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Oct 23, 2022 16:20
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Kaewan posted:I would have liked to see Pixar take the Paranorman approach instead. One of the main characters at the very end just drops a line about how he has a boyfriend. I think it would have been really cool if Buzz perhaps had the same treatment rather than some disposable side character who ended up being fairly one dimensional. Quick anecdote, I'm a college student and our student theater played Paranorman as a midnight movie a few weeks ago. That line got such an insane positive reaction, the cheers drowned out like 2 more lines of dialogue. People loving love Paranorman. I think a movie is "woke" if the characters don't spend at least 3/4 of the movie dreaming. The only non-woke films are Paprika, Inception, Waking Life, The Wizard of Oz, and Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind. BTW, the "anime is not political" thing is partially because these guys only watch real bottom-of-the-barrel romance poo poo and also shows that are for 12 year olds. That game Dawgstar is referring to is Guilty Gear, the character is
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Oct 24, 2022 04:36
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The "anime isn't political" poo poo is still mindblowing. Have any of these distinguished anime fans seen Full Metal Alchemist, or any Gundam show, or Evangelion, even anime postgame final boss Legend of the Galactic Heroes? Or any video game by Matsuno, Kojima or Yoko Taro. Hell, I'm even sure the slave raping Isekais they all watch probably have a jab at the LDP or something.
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Oct 24, 2022 05:01
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anime is fascist and ought to be banned
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Oct 24, 2022 05:07
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mutantIke posted:I think a movie is "woke" if the characters don't spend at least 3/4 of the movie dreaming. The only non-woke films are Paprika, Inception, Waking Life, The Wizard of Oz, and Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind. This is Nightmare on Elm Street erasure, Freddy's gonna get ya for that. Related, has there been any backlash against reading NoES 2 as gay? I get a bit of a chuckle out of imagining chuds calling that kind of reading "woke", it would fit right in with them not having seen the movies they talk about.
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Oct 24, 2022 07:44
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I loved how the cast/crew response to NoES2 being a big gay film was, "Somehow nobody noticed and we feel dumb as hell because it's really, obviously, 100% gay."
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Oct 24, 2022 08:09
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Grendels Dad posted:This is Nightmare on Elm Street erasure, Freddy's gonna get ya for that. No but see in those movies you have to get woke or else Freddy gets ya.
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Oct 24, 2022 09:41
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Now I want a Nightmare on Elm Street sequel where Freddy goes after bigots. Like they appear in a big fire pit on a pile of Judy Blume novels and Freddy yells, “looks like you just got banned from the library!” and he lights them up. Of course, that gets into that weird inappropriate sympathy from villains territory, like Dr. Doom crying over 9/11.
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Oct 24, 2022 13:20
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I'm reminded of my idea of a summer camp slasher movie with the twist where it's a forced conversion 'therapy' camp, and it's the staff (and maybe some visiting parents) being brutally slaughtered.
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Oct 24, 2022 13:54
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Sorry to say that one's already been done. It's called "They/Them" (get it? "they slash them") and it is generally not very good.
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Oct 24, 2022 15:02
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I AM GRANDO posted:Of course, that gets into that weird inappropriate sympathy from villains territory, like Dr. Doom crying over 9/11. I was going to joke "Dr. Doom should go after bigots too" but then I remembered Magneto, so I guess that base is already covered.
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Oct 24, 2022 15:18
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I liked Brian Clevinger's take on the Infinity Gauntlet where he had Dr Doom join the avengers in the aftermath because everyone knew that if he were left alone, he'd conquer the earth in the power vacuum, so they put him on the team to keep an eye on him.
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Oct 24, 2022 15:24
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I AM GRANDO posted:Of course, that gets into that weird inappropriate sympathy from villains territory, like Dr. Doom crying over 9/11. Oh, that's not even the best one. Juggernaut was there who, himself, had brought down one of the towers earlier in X-Force.
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Oct 24, 2022 16:07
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Ghost Leviathan posted:The whole reason anime took off so hard in the 90s in particular was because it presented something totally different from what cartoons were, as well as filling a niche of adolescent media that was officially completely empty then when kids were expected to 'graduate' to tween sitcoms or whatever. It was cheap, flawed and formulaic but in ways that Western audiences hadn't already gotten sick of. There was a bit of (probably manufactured) underground cred to it too, with the sexualised and futuristic visuals dovetailing with late-millenium/early internet utopian AND dystopian ideas. How much of this was me being 12, I don't know, but I can't separate that period of anime from things like the first Atari Teenage Riot record which sampled 3x3 Eyes. But I think its true that chuds really position it in opposition to "woke calarts trash", which is wild to me, because when I've watched Steven Universe or She-Ra or whatever with my partner who's and animation nut, the influence of Dragonball Z and Sailor Moon always seems huge to me. Disco Pope fucked around with this message at 16:25 on Oct 24, 2022 |
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Oct 24, 2022 16:19
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Disco Pope posted:But I think its true that chuds really position it in opposition to "woke calarts trash", which is wild to me, because when I've watched Steven Universe or She-Ra or whatever with my partner who's and animation nut, the influence of Dragonball Z and Sailor Moon always seems huge to me. Yeah, everybody doing animation now under a certain age (and possibly over it) grew up on Toonami.
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Oct 24, 2022 16:49
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IIRC Steven Universe is really heavily influenced by Utena to the point where it got homaged in some of the fights
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Oct 24, 2022 17:12
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It is, specifically with Pearl vs her doubles. There's a huge cultural exchange now with Western and Eastern animation because we all grew up watching each other's poo poo. Despite being told in art school that we have to be purists to find work, lol. My showrunner on Superman literally called me last night to chat about anime. Oh, but Lois is Korean-American and Jimmy is black, so I guess we're ruining Superman with wokeness!
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Oct 24, 2022 17:54
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Feldegast42 posted:IIRC Steven Universe is really heavily influenced by Utena to the point where it got homaged in some of the fights There's an absolutely ridiculous number of Utena references that get less and less subtle. Half of Pearl's whole character for one. Disco Pope posted:There was a bit of (probably manufactured) underground cred to it too, with the sexualised and futuristic visuals dovetailing with late-millenium/early internet utopian AND dystopian ideas. How much of this was me being 12, I don't know, but I can't separate that period of anime from things like the first Atari Teenage Riot record which sampled 3x3 Eyes. Also yeah, absolutely exactly the cartoons they complain about being woke and gay are the ones lovingly homaging anime at every opportunity. BioEnchanted posted:I liked Brian Clevinger's take on the Infinity Gauntlet where he had Dr Doom join the avengers in the aftermath because everyone knew that if he were left alone, he'd conquer the earth in the power vacuum, so they put him on the team to keep an eye on him. Dr Doom is basically just Tony Stark with a broader skillset and less substance abuse problems.
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Oct 24, 2022 17:57
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I AM GRANDO posted:Now I want a Nightmare on Elm Street sequel where Freddy goes after bigots. Like they appear in a big fire pit on a pile of Judy Blume novels and Freddy yells, “looks like you just got banned from the library!” and he lights them up. Final Destination 4 (the worst one) did have the cartoonishly bigoted guy that Death apparently REALLY didn't like and gave him a stupid, over the top, ironic death that combined multiple types of lynching into one.
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Oct 24, 2022 18:00
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Das Boo posted:It is, specifically with Pearl vs her doubles. There's a huge cultural exchange now with Western and Eastern animation because we all grew up watching each other's poo poo. Despite being told in art school that we have to be purists to find work, lol. This has always been the case to one degree or another, too. All the big anime studios in the 60s and 70s where extremely cognizant of Hanna-Barbera and Jay Ward Productions and the like, while on the other end you have Wacky Races and Dynomutt which are basically more comedic takes on Speed Racer and Casshern.
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Oct 24, 2022 18:05
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Das Boo posted:My showrunner on Superman literally called me last night to chat about anime. Oh, but Lois is Korean-American and Jimmy is black, so I guess we're ruining Superman with wokeness! I wondered if Lois was Asian! Neat.
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Oct 24, 2022 18:20
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Disco Pope posted:There was a bit of (probably manufactured) underground cred to it too, with the sexualised and futuristic visuals dovetailing with late-millenium/early internet utopian AND dystopian ideas. How much of this was me being 12, I don't know, but I can't separate that period of anime from things like the first Atari Teenage Riot record which sampled 3x3 Eyes. Reactionaries aren't denying the similarities. If anything, they'll dismiss western stuff as talentless and hollow facsimiles of what they like about anime. This can also extend to controversies about the translations of subtitles, where they're starting to accuse the subbers of shoehorning woke language in older works through the translation. In their mind, anime is 'pure' in that the themes and concepts can be conveyed subtly in a way that has broad appeal-hence the local success of some anime and manga compared to western counterparts. They think the medium isn't as "in your face" about politics. Western animation then to them fails because it is too "political". Not because it's political per se but because the delivery is too in your face smug preachy detached from reality values, at least to them. I think they see western animation as this strawman of all the insufferable aspects of Lisa Simpson and Brian Griffin. Like I said before, they're never doing a 1:1 comparison here, it's often comparing the most popular female sentai series (I'll assume Sailor Moon) to some obscure short lived western counterpart. So this makes it easier to bitch and complain about it.
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Oct 24, 2022 18:50
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Grendels Dad posted:Related, has there been any backlash against reading NoES 2 as gay? I get a bit of a chuckle out of imagining chuds calling that kind of reading "woke", it would fit right in with them not having seen the movies they talk about. I don't think that was ever in the pantheon of great films for MAGAs etc. So probably too niche and dated to get backlash these days. Some MAGAs consider all horror films to be degenerate trash at best and a portal to demonic possession at worst anyway. So if it was gay it'd make even more sense. Other MAGAs don't care about that stuff. A good bellwether example would be Rob Halford and Judas Priest. Some conservatives didn't care when Rob Halford came out in the late 1990s and others had some sort of identity crisis for ever liking the music.
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Oct 24, 2022 23:46
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Zogo posted:I don't think that was ever in the pantheon of great films for MAGAs etc. So probably too niche and dated to get backlash these days. Some MAGAs consider all horror films to be degenerate trash at best and a portal to demonic possession at worst anyway. So if it was gay it'd make even more sense. It's also a fool's errand to assume they are ever consistent about anything when it might be inconvenient for them.
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Oct 25, 2022 04:02
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I've seen some backlash to that reading of NoE2, but only in stuff like Shudder's comment sections. There's some people who are really upset about their documentaries about queer horror and black horror who are suddenly very vocal about authorial intent.
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Oct 26, 2022 08:38
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LMAO shudder has comment sections? I can't imagine those are any good
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Oct 26, 2022 16:42
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mutantIke posted:LMAO shudder has comment sections? I can't imagine those are any good They are EXACTLY what you imagine they are and I can’t fathom why they still exist
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Oct 26, 2022 18:53
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mutantIke posted:LMAO shudder has comment sections? I can't imagine those are any good Yeah, but I meant on Instagram too. They're a terrible idea and I'm not sure why the site itself has them, though.
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Oct 26, 2022 19:45
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Ghost Leviathan posted:It's also a fool's errand to assume they are ever consistent about anything when it might be inconvenient for them. Yeah, I've come to the conclusion that the horror genre isn't an effective launching pad for the airing of MAGA grievances. It's been done before but envisioning Trump screaming at one of his rallies about Pinhead being a guy and not a girl just seems too parodic. Maybe I'm forgetting some beloved horror franchise. That crowd has too many that are aghast at benign stuff like Hocus Pocus 2. I can only imagine what'd happen if legit horror films like The Beyond (1981) or Martyrs (2008) were on Disney+. Now if Bond ends up being played by a minority woman that'd be delicious red meat for the MAGA crowd to talk about for the next decade or so.
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Oct 26, 2022 21:00
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Zogo posted:Now if Bond ends up being played by a minority woman that'd be delicious red meat for the MAGA crowd to talk about for the next decade or so. The whole Bond thing is a bit of a comedy minefield considering you're talking about a character defined by constantly indulging in every remotely 'cool' vice and questionably necessary violence at every opportunity.
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Oct 28, 2022 02:29
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Can you stir or shake meth? Because I think Bond should do meth in the next reboot.
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Oct 28, 2022 07:48
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Grendels Dad posted:Can you stir or shake meth? I'd like meth. Crystal, not blue.
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Oct 28, 2022 09:20
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Grendels Dad posted:Can you stir or shake meth? You sure can! https://www.therecoveryvillage.com/meth-addiction/shake-and-bake-meth/
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Oct 28, 2022 15:18
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The original Bond was a WW2 veteran IIRC so he probably did.
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Oct 29, 2022 03:11
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 All Quiet on the Western Front is woke now?https://twitter.com/CoolGuySynth/status/1586045319934259200?t=7jMIFRqf-hVBLJsD06sD_A&s=19
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Oct 31, 2022 19:02
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