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I deeply hated Captain Marvel's character. She was a huge prick for most of the movie.
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Aug 15, 2022 03:09
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CelticPredator posted:If they replaced John Connor with another annoying white boy it would be okay you see If they replaced him with anything and told a different story it'd be fine, if they replaced him with anyone and did what they did and just....retold his story? It's not going to be great, because we just watched the last person to experience that story get murdered. Why the gently caress do I care about this new crew that will be inevitably murdered when a new time traveling monster comes back to take them out? There's nothing different about their experience, no new lessons they learned. They aren't more competent or better equipped. They aren't worse, either. They are just....same. Repeating a story I just watched end in tragedy. Like when you end the story on a woman preparing herself to protect her child from a terrible future after beginning it watching a different mother lose her child, it's not painting an optimistic chance for her outcome. And it's fine to tell downer stories, but did we really need to come back to a played out franchise to poo poo on it one more time?
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Aug 15, 2022 03:35
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Take it up with the guy who created the series
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Aug 15, 2022 03:48
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I think there's a contradiction between Hollywood becoming increasingly algorithm driven and this sort drive to be more inclusive. To truly tell female stories or minority stories requires broadening the kinds of movies that get made, yet the exact opposite is happening, you know?
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Aug 15, 2022 03:52
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Das Boo posted:I can't talk from a minority standpoint so I'm mostly writing this from an ace woman's perspective of woke: You touched on an issue that happens as well, I don't know the word for it-but it's when someone on the right and also someone on the left are critical of something, but for entirely opposite reasons. Reactionaries will criticize pandering in a film but it's because they're opposed to the very existence of that demographic outside of stereotype. Leftists of course don't like cheap pandering that is insincere products of rainbow washing. Good evaluation of Ripley as a character though I wonder if the reactionaries that use her as an example would do so if Aliens came out last week and not decades ago. There's certainly female characters that are blatant Mary Sues but I imagine the threshold for such a claim is extremely low. We don't seem to treat male protagonists with the same level of scrutiny-nobody complains Forrest Gump is implausibly successful but a female counterpart would draw tons of poo poo for it.
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Aug 15, 2022 03:55
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Panfilo posted:There's certainly female characters that are blatant Mary Sues but I imagine the threshold for such a claim is extremely low. We don't seem to treat male protagonists with the same level of scrutiny-nobody complains Forrest Gump is implausibly successful but a female counterpart would draw tons of poo poo for it. Panfilo posted:Good evaluation of Ripley as a character though I wonder if the reactionaries that use her as an example would do so if Aliens came out last week and not decades ago.
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Aug 15, 2022 06:48
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Das Boo posted:I can't talk from a minority standpoint so I'm mostly writing this from an ace woman's perspective of woke: This is why fascists are melting down about Boys. It does a good job sending up false wokeness but if you are wearing rose colored glasses red flags are just flags. representationis good but what does it mean to be represented? there is an invisible line between "increased visibility" and "empty pandering" and it can be a hard call. I'm not as down on corporate pride as some of my friends because like I can be out at my job and not dragged behind a truck? That's a solid check in the W column for me. I don't think capital is my friend, we were never going to be friends. It's Bowie man. I'll take authentic artificiality over artificial authenticity.
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Aug 15, 2022 08:11
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Timeless Appeal posted:Except it's not. John Connor was killed off because Cameron wanted to shock the audience and make it clear that their expectations were off the table. And you can criticize that, I personally don't think they should have made any Terminator movies beyond 2. lol one post and we're already to the YOU'RE A CONSPIRACY CHUD, CHUD state of things. my mistake for thinking CD could have a mature discussion about this stuff.
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Aug 15, 2022 09:33
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Horizon Burning posted:lol one post and we're already to the YOU'RE A CONSPIRACY CHUD, CHUD state of things. my mistake for thinking CD could have a mature discussion about this stuff.
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Aug 15, 2022 12:06
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2nd Amendment posted:This is why fascists are melting down about Boys. It does a good job sending up false wokeness but if you are wearing rose colored glasses red flags are just flags. 2nd Amendment posted:I'm not as down on corporate pride as some of my friends because like I can be out at my job and not dragged behind a truck? That's a solid check in the W column for me.
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Aug 15, 2022 12:13
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2nd Amendment posted:This is why fascists are melting down about Boys. It does a good job sending up false wokeness but if you are wearing rose colored glasses red flags are just flags. representationis good but what does it mean to be represented? there is an invisible line between "increased visibility" and "empty pandering" and it can be a hard call. I'm not as down on corporate pride as some of my friends because like I can be out at my job and not dragged behind a truck? That's a solid check in the W column for me. I don't think capital is my friend, we were never going to be friends. It's Bowie man. I'll take authentic artificiality over artificial authenticity.
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Aug 15, 2022 12:25
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I did a little experiment where I actively engaged people who complained about things being "woke" on social media to test some hypothesis I had. I noticed a few things. - A large portion, maybe even the largest percentage - weren't American. Given that a lot of "woke" complaints are American politics-focused, that was pretty odd. - A lot of people have copy-pasted vague statements that (a) don't actually name the media in question, (b) don't mention anything particular about the film that would identify it, and (c) are clones of whatever someone else had said. Essentially, the format is "I don't care about it having (race/sexuality/gender) in it, the movie was just (random negative attribute) and used woke politics instead of (random positive attribute). Which leads to the 3rd point: - It was painfully obvious that the people complaining hadn't even seen the media by and large. If you ask for specifics, you get crickets or deflections. Tying that into them being incredibly vague with copy-pasted comments, a lot is just pure trolling, people just trying to fit in on a side of the culture war, or possibly even some kind of astroturfing. Also, it's pretty hilarious in the case of Sandman because the comic is the "wokest" thing to ever woke for its time, the Endless specifically look like whatever the person seeing them thinks, the gender swap in one case is Lucifer and in another case is specifically using a different character due to rights issues, and every creator is behind every change so they have no hill whatsoever to stand on. They still *try* mind you, but it normally ends in self-ownage.
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Aug 15, 2022 13:47
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A Buttery Pastry posted:I get the usual meaning, but I'm not sure I understand the flag bit here. In any case, I figure another reason they might get pissed off (if they're the polite type) is because the show basically says the difference between "patriots" and old school Nazis is just marketing. I'm sure that pissed them off too but what I was trying to express is that if you view wokeness as fundamentally pandering then the Boys sending up rainbow washing just looks like a criticism of wokeness. From the fascist point of view they are the same thing. Which is also why they are surprised and angry when the show "suddenly" turned on them. quote:I feel like this is giving it more credit than is due? Corporate pride is what happens when society has moved far enough that corporations think they can make money off it, which is kind of orthogonal to the question of the safety of LBGTQ+ people. Or the causality is reversed, and corporate pride happens when the struggle of LGBTQ+ people has finally brought them a measure of safety. Which I suppose is at least still possibly better than the hosed up poo poo that is Pride embracing cops. I feel that is underselling early adopters like Goldman Sachs. Rich white gay men really leveraged their privilege to make pride "respectable" and to make being gay "respectable". Basically folding it into the mainstream. Is it more profitable to oppress gay people or to sell to them? That's not orthogonal to the question of safety at all.
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Aug 15, 2022 15:32
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I'm not sure it makes a lot of sense to discuss what makes a film "woke" because the people using that term unironically don't have a consistent definition. Like CRT, it's been hijacked to label everything the chuds find objectionable at the moment. An actual question of representation is different matter of course. Could the next James Bond be recast as an asexual Black-Chinese nonbinary Muslim? Sure, I suppose, but I would question why. The character is what it is, and I think trying to shoehorn diversity there would not come across as genuine. On the other hand, I like what Fury Road did, Mad Max is still Mad Max, and yet they could also tell a woman's story. Panfilo posted:I was going to mention the Boys as an example as well, because it was pretty on the nose about rainbow washing and cynical marketing.  Panfilo posted:Good evaluation of Ripley as a character though I wonder if the reactionaries that use her as an example would do so if Aliens came out last week and not decades ago.    Although I think someone should start a "chuds react" channel where zoomer chuds are shown old stuff they haven't seen and their reactions are recorded for all to see.
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Aug 15, 2022 17:05
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Horizon Burning posted:lol one post and we're already to the YOU'RE A CONSPIRACY CHUD, CHUD state of things. my mistake for thinking CD could have a mature discussion about this stuff. Having a reply that disagrees with you and getting super mad about it definitely shows how mature and above this conversation you are. We aspire to your level.
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Aug 15, 2022 18:20
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2nd Amendment posted:I'm sure that pissed them off too but what I was trying to express is that if you view wokeness as fundamentally pandering then the Boys sending up rainbow washing just looks like a criticism of wokeness. From the fascist point of view they are the same thing. Which is also why they are surprised and angry when the show "suddenly" turned on them. 2nd Amendment posted:I feel that is underselling early adopters like Goldman Sachs. Rich white gay men really leveraged their privilege to make pride "respectable" and to make being gay "respectable". Basically folding it into the mainstream. Is it more profitable to oppress gay people or to sell to them? That's not orthogonal to the question of safety at all. As for the safety aspect, who became safer? And by how much? My understanding is that being poor and queer still makes you extremely vulnerable in the US, even if rich cis gay guys are comfortable enough to hang out with fascists.
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Aug 15, 2022 18:31
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A Buttery Pastry posted:I get you. I'm probably not keyed into the fascist position on The Boys enough to actually know what they feel like is a case of the show turning on them, because I don't really see it changing at any point. The show absolutely did not change, fascists are just really bad at media. But part of that is because rainbow washing is real. If that's all you think "being woke" is, then The Boys is making fun of "being woke". There is a lot of schaden to be had when you read the Boys thread because fascists on reddit are absolutely having meltdowns when they realize the show is skewering them, not wokescolds. It's pretty funny. A Buttery Pastry posted:Did they make being gay "respectable", or being gay and well-off enough to buy poo poo "respectable"? Being "respectable" can even be a poison chalice, convincing people there is no more struggle to be fought, and certainly the more "respectable" you make things the more likely you are to create structures in what used to be a protest movement that suddenly start siding with the oppressors. Whether that is supporting cops, the MIC, or whatever other organization that is still supporting discrimination against you or your peers, at home and/or abroad. I mean, I think it would be incredibly hard to argue that things aren't substantially better for gay people now than 20 years ago. A core plank of W's re-election campaign was "Let's make it legal to hunt gay people for sport again!" There are numerous protections that would have been unthinkable 20 years ago including legal protections like the right to marry nationwide (for as long as that lasts) and many many states with strong legal protections. Entertainment and representation has changed (not just having visible gay characters but also not having daytime talk shows being a weird carnival exploiting gay and trans people). It still sucks to be poor in America. It still sucks to be a gender and/or racial minority in America. Tacking gay onto either (or both!) of those isn't going to make for a great ride. There is still a lot of work to be done. But that doesn't diminish the very real progress that has happened over the last two decades. It's absolutely unequally shared, rich white men have the biggest piece of the pie by far. But that has more to do with their wealth, whiteness and masculinity than their gayness.
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Aug 15, 2022 19:48
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Panfilo posted:The Blade trilogy has a black protagonist yet they wouldn't consider it a woke series. Racists were absolutely mad at Blade despite it being canonically a black protagonist.
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Aug 15, 2022 19:55
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2nd Amendment posted:The show absolutely did not change, fascists are just really bad at media. But part of that is because rainbow washing is real. If that's all you think "being woke" is, then The Boys is making fun of "being woke". There is a lot of schaden to be had when you read the Boys thread because fascists on reddit are absolutely having meltdowns when they realize the show is skewering them, not wokescolds. It's pretty funny. 2nd Amendment posted:I mean, I think it would be incredibly hard to argue that things aren't substantially better for gay people now than 20 years ago. A core plank of W's re-election campaign was "Let's make it legal to hunt gay people for sport again!" There are numerous protections that would have been unthinkable 20 years ago including legal protections like the right to marry nationwide (for as long as that lasts) and many many states with strong legal protections. Entertainment and representation has changed (not just having visible gay characters but also not having daytime talk shows being a weird carnival exploiting gay and trans people).
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Aug 15, 2022 20:32
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2nd Amendment posted:The show absolutely did not change, fascists are just really bad at media. But part of that is because rainbow washing is real. If that's all you think "being woke" is, then The Boys is making fun of "being woke". There is a lot of schaden to be had when you read the Boys thread because fascists on reddit are absolutely having meltdowns when they realize the show is skewering them, not wokescolds. It's pretty funny. The show made Homelander more blatantly Trump adjacent in the last season because he was tired of right wingers misinterpreting the character and liking him although he was obviously one of the villains. There was some complaints about things in this season losing any subtlety whatsoever, which was by design for that reason.
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Aug 15, 2022 21:08
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Darko posted:The show made Homelander more blatantly Trump adjacent in the last season because he was tired of right wingers misinterpreting the character and liking him although he was obviously one of the villains. There was some complaints about things in this season losing any subtlety whatsoever, which was by design for that reason.
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Aug 15, 2022 21:19
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Oh things have improved for sure, I'm just hesitant to place much of that progress at the feet of corporations. Not saying it has done nothing, but you also have to weigh it against the negatives of rainbow washing. I think people in general but especially leftist underestimate the power of corporate propaganda. We are constantly inundated with it, swimming in it. Corporate propaganda in America is very much on the side of "it is OK to be gay" and that does shape discourse a lot more than people give it credit for. Small companies are still fiefdoms that can mean whatever but big companies? There is an unprecedented acceptance of being gay. Homosexuality has more protections at a major retailer like Target than black hair.
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Aug 15, 2022 21:51
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Alfred P. Pseudonym posted:Related to this topic, there is a phenomenon in recent years where a studio will cast a woman or a person of color in a role specifically to stir up poo poo and get free marketing off the back of the “controversy” (which they then amplify). This is 90% of the “culture wars” Mostly just loud, unhinged assholes on the internet feeding off each other in a bizarre, symbiotic relationship.
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Aug 16, 2022 03:01
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MLSM posted:This is 90% of the “culture wars” Some of these discussions are stuck in the twitter threads of deepest hell for a reason.
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Aug 16, 2022 04:12
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After watching Prey I actually had a look at the reactionary grifter narrative on it pre and post release and it lead to an interesting analysis of how the right-wing outrage critics try to create drama in pretty much any piece of media that is perceived as woke, but also attempt to disengage from it if it is perceived as being a good piece of media rather than something that they can use as another example of "go woke = go broke". The pre-release youtube videos and discussion of Prey centred around the trailer primarily and it was veritable feast for the right-wing grifters, because it had all of the hallmarks of a "woke" movie. I did some searches post-release and there were still a few youtube channel decrying the film as woke, but they seemed to be smaller channel with sub 10k views, while most of the big-guns seemed to remain quiet on the subject, or alternatively create videos with titles such as "I saw Prey and it ISN'T WOKE". The latter was somewhat interesting to me, because I wasn't sure if it was just a cynical attempt to exclude Prey from being a successful "woke" film. Most of the conversation about Prey not being woke was primarily concerned with the fact that it had strong male characters and thus that because it didn't actively demonise men, it could not be considered woke. This attempt to un-woke the movie seems to me to be somewhat cynical, since the movie has all of the hallmarks of being a woke movie: a female protagonist that succeeds where men have failed, minority representation, casting white people in a bad light etc etc. I think successful, widely acclaimed films like Prey do create problems for right-wing grifters, because if they try to create outrage against the film they can get pushback from people that would normally watch their videos, but haven't gone full brainworms and actually like the movie in question. Something similar happened to Fury Road, where the film was so critically acclaimed that the voices denouncing it as "woke" were marginalised because the overall consensus was that it was a great movie.
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Aug 16, 2022 12:18
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"Go woke and go broke please don't pay attention to Black Panther grossing more than Infinity War and all but 2 other marvel movies."
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Aug 16, 2022 18:06
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MLSM posted:This is 90% of the “culture wars” I'm old enough to remember when "woke" was called "affirmative action" in the 90s with the culture war. A lot of the talking points are the same now as they were during that culture war (you know like "they only got the job because they are a woman and are unqualified yadda yadda"). The difference today is that we have social media and the Internet in general. I mean there were BBSes in the 90s but it was usually just a small handful of weird nerds screeching about The Simpsons or something instead of unhinged assholes flaring their nostrils over Captain Marvel.
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Aug 17, 2022 00:12
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Justin Godscock posted:I'm old enough to remember when "woke" was called "affirmative action" in the 90s with the culture war. A lot of the talking points are the same now as they were during that culture war (you know like "they only got the job because they are a woman and are unqualified yadda yadda"). The difference today is that we have social media and the Internet in general. I mean there were BBSes in the 90s but it was usually just a small handful of weird nerds screeching about The Simpsons or something instead of unhinged assholes flaring their nostrils over Captain Marvel. Affirmative Action = PC Police = SJW = Cancel Culture = Woke probably missed a few
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Aug 17, 2022 00:34
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Jaxyon posted:Affirmative Action = PC Police = SJW = Cancel Culture = Woke CRT
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Aug 17, 2022 00:49
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The most straightforward definition is "anything they will profit off if they call it woke". I've only skimmed the thread, but here are some more examples: fathers being portrayed as irresponsible or unempathetic, men not being allowed to beat villains, men not being allowed to give correct advice or being punished for trying to give advice, reducing established male characters to ineffectual wimps (Terminator Carl, Luke Skywalker, Joel in TLOU2). There's also a weird fixation with weight and strength, which of course only matter when a woman gets into a fight. I think Terminator and Alien are spared mostly because they're widely acclaimed older films, not for other reasons. I think some of their valid points shouldn't be dismissed, such as the tokenization of minorities or fabricated controversies. Spermando fucked around with this message at 00:55 on Aug 17, 2022 |
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Aug 17, 2022 00:53
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Timeless Appeal posted:There is no such thing as woke cinema because that misunderstands the original intent of the word. I mean, while words change meaning all the time, I think we can at least distinguish between "woke" as it was used for decades, and "woke" as this new pejorative. I think the newness of the pejorative sense of "woke" also means that the way it's used is in flux and its meaning is pretty sloppy. But there tend to be a few regularities: (1) it's an attempt to state that an object (or person) is anti-racist or anti-sexist with a negative connotation. (2) it's a sarcastic inversion of Black vernacular associated with anti-racist activism (I think the way the word became current in twitter is Deray McKesson signing his tweets with "stay woke"), which means that like a lot of right-wing criticism against liberalism it can carry an accusation that the target is insincere. The target is accused of espousing anti-racism or anti-sexism tribally, essentially promoting their 'side' with no real commitment to the ideals. This is connected to the persistent reactionary idea that people don't really believe that racism is bad, and that moral rules are arbitrarily enforced for the sake of power. This part of pejorative "woke" helps explain why, as an earlier poster noted, the biggest complaints coalesce around movies promoted as "girlboss feminism." Those are objects that are not just obviously surface-level feminist, but they're also easy to criticize as expressions of a corporate pseudo-feminism from a ruling class trying to claim righteousness. (3) it serves as a kind of group identifier. To accuse something of being "woke" identifies the speaker as someone who opposed the "woke" and picks fights with the "woke." It provides people with language they can kind of ritualistically repeat, performing their part in the culture war. This connects the word with what Darko identified, where people yammering about "wokeness" on twitter are just kind of repeating prepared lines with no particular connection to the media in question. The canned lines make it easy to be "anti-woke," since you can just repeat them whenever need be and be convinced of your correctness. So I think you can identify "woke cinema" but as a category it's going to be something like "movies which get termed "woke" by reactionary culture warriors." The category isn't going to reflect on the movies in any meaningful sense, but it will tell us about the people mad about them. Zogo posted:Yes, it's important to note that white Christians are now a minority in the US for the first time in hundreds of years. That fact scares a lot of people and is the source for some of great replacement/genocide stuff. I think Christian Nationalists have been around 2% of the population for a while. So there isn't a new minoritarian fear, but also they've been this way for some time.
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Aug 17, 2022 01:44
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Jaxyon posted:Affirmative Action = PC Police = SJW = Cancel Culture = Woke Affirmative Action is a different category because it had immediate real world economic consequences
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Aug 17, 2022 04:22
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War and Pieces posted:Affirmative Action is a different category because it had immediate real world economic consequences Yeah but my understanding it is only raised wages (albeit quite modestly) for minorities and women while not affecting overall productivity nor decreasing white male wages. Silly to get angry at others doing better unless you are a nutjob, which folds nicely into the other talking points. The John Birch Society has had a lasting impact on America. I'd have a diagram with "Civil Rights" and "Women's Rights" feeding into a charging cable tangle of things like satanic panic, anticommunism, private schools, abortion eventually feeding out into cables we can now identify as "Christian Nationalism" and "White Nationalism" but both are feeding into the same port. 2nd Amendment fucked around with this message at 05:53 on Aug 17, 2022 |
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Aug 17, 2022 05:49
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Hand Knit posted:I think Christian Nationalists have been around 2% of the population for a while. So there isn't a new minoritarian fear, but also they've been this way for some time.
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Aug 17, 2022 06:08
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War and Pieces posted:Affirmative Action is a different category because it had immediate real world economic consequences Actual affirmative action is great. "Affirmative Action" is also bigot shorthand for anyone non-white getting a job, if you're a boomer. As in "get a load of this affirmative action hire that got promoted over me, the obvious choice being white and male" or college admission or whatever the gently caress.
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Aug 17, 2022 08:01
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Das Boo posted:
This was a good post, DB
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Aug 17, 2022 08:25
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War and Pieces posted:Affirmative Action is a different category because it had immediate real world economic consequences So does putting minorities or women in white male roles for the people getting those roles. It's the exact same thing just applied somewhere that everyone can visibly and easily see it as opposed to made up anecdotes about the Native Transgender person getting the job over them because they're a minority, not because theyre more qualified. Now they can say, "look, you can see it happening in this movie!" When I feel like someone actually wants to converse about the subject and is being genuine on not knowing why there was even a push to get more women and people of color mainstream roles, I typically point out that as a starting actor in casting calls a black man typically only gets thug or cop roles as the quota quickly gets filled for businessman or whatever because the casting director only wants a "couple" for their office scene because they subconsciously of consciously thinks it looks weird if the ratio is too high for minorities to white people in that scene. This leads to horrendous upward mobility for black actors. It's basically a "known" thing that the only way for a black person to become a star, especially in the 90s and early 2000s, is to leverage popularity in one field to get a studio to put you in that typically non black role as opposed to starting more organically. The biggest Gen X black stars were basically all musicians and comedians that got roles because they were already a proven moneymaker with a built in audience as opposed to rising up through normal acting ranks. There are exceptions, but even currently where it's a little better, current rising black stars like Michael B Jordan were still noticed by their first major role being "drug dealer" as a child. Boseman also started off playing small roles as drug dealer and stuff too (anecdote: I was able to get cast as part of Boseman's entourage when he played a boxer and got bumped up to coveted role of "news reporter"; one of the few times I didn't get cop/thug). This spreads across all minorities too, Indian people get tech guy and store worker, Southeast Asia gets possibly the worst representation, etc. The excuses for this are exactly the same as they are for affirmative action - if you want to get hired, minority should make your own movie - just like minority should start their own business. Which ignores anything having to do with generation legacy to be able to do so. Darko fucked around with this message at 15:32 on Aug 17, 2022 |
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Aug 17, 2022 12:57
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One thing touched on here is that reactionaries get angry that the taboo about whitewashing doesn't cut in the other direction. If you remade Blade with a non black actor there would be a lot more outrage than if you did a live action Little Mermaid with a black Ariel. And sometimes mediocrity of the product itself makes it really easy to bury bigoted grievances within it. A lot of people panned the live action Cowboy Bebop but for some they directly attributed things like Jet's actor or Jill's lesbianism to why they think it's bad. It creates a situation where they can convince themselves other critics agree with them, or some people care more about representation than an actual good story.
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Aug 17, 2022 15:00
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Darko posted:So does putting minorities or women in white male roles for the people getting those roles. Why should I or anyone else care about millionaires celebrities? If you'd allow me pull out my tinfoil hat I'd say that "Representation matters" was a psyop to distract from the dismantlement of affirmative action. It's cheaper and easier to have a handful of affirmative action hires in Hollywood than the economy writ large.
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Aug 17, 2022 16:47
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War and Pieces posted:Why should I or anyone else care about millionaires celebrities? If you'd allow me pull out my tinfoil hat I'd say that "Representation matters" was a psyop to distract from the dismantlement of affirmative action. It's cheaper and easier to have a handful of affirmative action hires in Hollywood than the economy writ large. You know most actors aren't millionaires and are struggling, right? I just explained why minority actors dont *get* to a status where they can even really comfortably support themselves in there as well. And even still, who cares about millionaires except a sour grapes thing? Racism is racism. Darko fucked around with this message at 18:10 on Aug 17, 2022 |
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Aug 17, 2022 18:07
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