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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Lol ok, the Guardian's actual Mark is hidden in the class feat, as a one action feat at level 2: Yeah should probably be a save against your class DC and they lose the action if they fail it, which is both more reasonable (in that it doesn't give you perfect lockdown) and not really a nerf because it's a possibility of them wasting an action rather than just not bothering to try to escape Something like this might be better "Enemy must save vs your class DC to use a move action to move outside your reach" Critical Success: They move as normal Success: They move as normal but take X damage (strength bonus? some other scaling bonus?) Failure: They stop just before they would exit your reach Critical Failure: They stop just before they would exit your reach and fall prone (or maybe just the damage again) Also the Taunt should probably not give them a bonus to hit you at all, IMO, it's not like really any stronger than Intimidate and you lose all the intimidate support Piell fucked around with this message at 22:31 on Apr 29, 2024 |
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Apr 29, 2024 22:26
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Not a bad suggestion, but we keep running into an issue: "against the class DC" stuff allows higher level monsters to just stomp right through their poo poo and ignore it. Which, ok, that seems to be the theme. Spells don't work, abilities fail, attacks miss, and now: marks don't stick. I guess this class ain't any different - which wouldn't be a problem except the other tank class, the Champion, does not have this issue at all IIRC.
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Apr 29, 2024 22:49
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redeemers would be a whole lot worse if their reaction gave a save against their class dc, enfeebled 1 on success 2 on failure
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Apr 29, 2024 22:51
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Not a bad suggestion, but we keep running into an issue: "against the class DC" stuff allows higher level monsters to just stomp right through their poo poo and ignore it. Which, ok, that seems to be the theme. Spells don't work, abilities fail, attacks miss, and now: marks don't stick. I guess this class ain't any different - which wouldn't be a problem except the other tank class, the Champion, does not have this issue at all IIRC. atelier morgan posted:redeemers would be a whole lot worse if their reaction gave a save against their class dc, enfeebled 1 on success 2 on failure Hmm, maybe if leaving your reach automatically triggered taunt as a free action 1/round instead? Still a save but works it into the class feature more and they're still penalized unless they crit save Piell fucked around with this message at 22:59 on Apr 29, 2024 |
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Apr 29, 2024 22:56
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I think reliability on tanking abilities is incredibly important to them feeling good to use, if someone can just make a save or ignore it, you feel like a chump. OTOH blanket negation is rough, I think you playtest this and see how bad it feels, particularly if classes archetype in to grab it and try it with the standard knockdown and AoO builds. Possible places to go with it include it just forcing an extra action surcharge on moving away from the person with Hampering Strikes.
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Apr 29, 2024 23:04
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in a dirge of doom world i don't think there's any problem with taunt being targeted -2 to hit everybody but the guardian without involving any kind of save at all or any bonus to hitting the guardian
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Apr 29, 2024 23:10
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Dear Uncle Paizo-Claus, All I want for Christmas is a Hobbogobbo Commander Iconic. I have been a very good boy this year and haven’t derailed a single game with rules lawyery bullshit. Thanks in advance, -Chevy Slyme
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Apr 29, 2024 23:27
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Hampering Sweeps should be a class feature (an archetype?) instead of a class feat. Don't ruin their one cool thing because someone else can multiclass to pick it up. They also shouldn't have to waste a feat on what makes them actually work.
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Apr 29, 2024 23:45
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Chevy Slyme posted:Dear Uncle Paizo-Claus, It wouldnt be too hard to retcon General Ironfang Invasion person into just this I'll take my consultancy fee now Paizo
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Apr 30, 2024 00:30
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We can get 10 offensive martials and everyone thinks that's fine, we get a second defensive martial and everyone immediately declares it to just be champion again.
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Apr 30, 2024 01:47
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Hellioning posted:We can get 10 offensive martials and everyone thinks that's fine, we get a second defensive martial and everyone immediately declares it to just be champion again. I mean I agree that Guardian needs some refinement, but yeah. For one thing, Taunt should not penalize the Guardian, jesus.
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Apr 30, 2024 02:00
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Yeah Taunt is, I'm going to immediately house rule that away for playtesting because what the gently caress? Other than that it looks pretty neat thematically, and I know plenty of players who will want it. What country in Golarion would be good to host a game with a Guardian and Commander as characters? I'm thinking Numeria and maybe one of those Northern kingdoms I haven't read enough on.
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Apr 30, 2024 02:20
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To be fair, guardians do get options for some damage resistance and even for negating crits. But honestly, crits are nasty, and yeah no small amount of resistance is going to matter when eating crits. Especially when crits can have extra effects beyond just damage, which aren't accounted for by the mechanics.
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Apr 30, 2024 02:25
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mind the walrus posted:What country in Golarion would be good to host a game with a Guardian and Commander as characters? I'm thinking Numeria and maybe one of those Northern kingdoms I haven't read enough on.
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Apr 30, 2024 02:30
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Hellioning posted:We can get 10 offensive martials and everyone thinks that's fine, we get a second defensive martial and everyone immediately declares it to just be champion again. then make it more different from a champion
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Apr 30, 2024 02:39
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sugar free jazz posted:then make it more different from a champion They have basically nothing in common with a champion!
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Apr 30, 2024 02:57
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SithDrummer posted:Iblydos too, I think. I'm getting the Firebrands book so I might hybridize where it's a 4-martial/1-spellcaster crew of pirate Firebrands doing something-or-other in the Inner Sea -- Bloodcove or Corentyn in Cheliax look like a good fit for that.
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Apr 30, 2024 02:58
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Hellioning posted:They have basically nothing in common with a champion! they're both built around having heavy armor, e: wait holy poo poo they don't even get expert armor proficiency at level 1 that makes the +2 to be hit on taunt so much worse. you don't even need the debuff to hit other targets they'll attack you anyway for making yourself as crittable as a caster lol atelier morgan fucked around with this message at 03:29 on Apr 30, 2024 |
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Apr 30, 2024 03:26
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atelier morgan posted:they're both built around having heavy armor, For an additional downside Champion's reaction also gives DR against all damage whereas the Guardian's is physical damage only (with energy DR coming from a feat) Andrast fucked around with this message at 03:39 on Apr 30, 2024 |
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Apr 30, 2024 03:32
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Hellioning posted:They have basically nothing in common with a champion! lol
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Apr 30, 2024 03:32
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Guardian is a bit half-baked compared to a champion but seems like a pretty easy fix since it just needs a couple of buffs to the intercept/taunt mechanics and some bonus feats/automatic upgrades and it's fine.
Andrast fucked around with this message at 03:46 on Apr 30, 2024 |
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Apr 30, 2024 03:43
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I agree that taunt should not have the penalty and intercept could probably do with a range increase but I think guardian focusing on active defense with taunt and making themself tankier would be significantly different than the champion's reactions.
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Apr 30, 2024 03:57
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atelier morgan posted:they're both built around having heavy armor,  While the Guardian ability is very explicit that the Guardian themselves takes the damage:  quote:e: wait holy poo poo they don't even get expert armor proficiency at level 1 that makes the +2 to be hit on taunt so much worse. you don't even need the debuff to hit other targets they'll attack you anyway for making yourself as crittable as a caster lol It feels like Taunt might work better if it works that way, but the enemy is now off-guard or gets some other kind of penalty for your allies -- like they get they +1 or +2 to attack rolls against them. Better risk/reward. Andrast posted:For an additional downside Champion's reaction also gives DR against all damage whereas the Guardian's is physical damage only (with energy DR coming from a feat) Even then though, like why does the Guardian have to fill every aspect of the Champion? Party synergy is Queen in PF2e, so if you know one of your party members are a Guardian then you should plan for energy DR another way, or let that be a weak point you guys can work around. And if I hear a word of "well I don't want to have my other party members dictating my character choices" then maybe it's not the right system for you. It's not like Paizo hasn't given a truly staggering level of horizontal options to choose from for this purpose.
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Apr 30, 2024 04:03
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mind the walrus posted:To be fair Retributive Strike is only for 1 of 6 potential Champion builds and the ally takes the damage: i'm aware, and 'taking the damage yourself' is a significantly worse rider on the DR than getting a free strike or inflicting Enfeebled 2 no save (or even a free Step action, much as that's weaker than the others), notwithstanding how much less you're able to use an ability that protects within 5 ft rather than 15 ft guardian doesn't need to do everything champion does, in fact i quite like the 'explode your armor at people' and 'be so swole you just shoulder check people or ground pound everyone on their asses' feats as a unique flavor direction, they just need to be tuned up atelier morgan fucked around with this message at 04:09 on Apr 30, 2024 |
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Apr 30, 2024 04:04
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lol i knew i recognized this from pf1. it's Antagonize as a class feature, but worse. pretty sure there were some kind of cavalier orders or paladin archetypes that did this too.
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Apr 30, 2024 04:21
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mind the walrus posted:Yeah Taunt is, I'm going to immediately house rule that away for playtesting because what the gently caress? Lastwall.
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Apr 30, 2024 04:27
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mind the walrus posted:
Set it in The Shackles, make the Commander a pirate captain, and the Guardian the ship's armorer. (Set every campaign in The Shackles IMO)
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Apr 30, 2024 05:50
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Chevy Slyme posted:Lastwall. VikingofRock posted:Set it in The Shackles, make the Commander a pirate captain, and the Guardian the ship's armorer.
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Apr 30, 2024 11:45
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If you want an almost automatic ability add an automatic level of success so bosses can only escape on crit
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Apr 30, 2024 13:17
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I've talked one of my players into running a couple combats and me playing the Guardian this weekend. One of them is going to be an L+4 which I think is gonna be the fight that really shows up the conceptual problems of basing your tanking ability around enemy saves, but we'll see.
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Apr 30, 2024 21:12
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I had a realization about Taunt. You're not supposed to taunt everything - mostly the little guys who peel away from you to go after your back line. For the big guys, you're supposed to move in to engage them and keep them stuck to you with stuff like Hampering Sweeps and Athletics moves (which Guardian already starts trained in and emphasizes Strength for). Even if you have to taunt a stronger enemy, you can taunt and move away from them to make them waste an action moving to you, which can keep them from doing worse three-action moves. Guardian is about tanking, tactically - much like Commander - and now I'm understanding even more why it and Commander are being paired together. Megaman's Jockstrap posted:I've talked one of my players into running a couple combats and me playing the Guardian this weekend. One of them is going to be an L+4 which I think is gonna be the fight that really shows up the conceptual problems of basing your tanking ability around enemy saves, but we'll see. I assume that the PL+4 boss test isn't being thrown at a level 1 party with starting gear. I can't imagine level 1 characters having the breadth of options needed to deal with a threat like that.
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Apr 30, 2024 21:38
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Very valid point/question. We're doing Level 6. Everybody else is playing characters they know how to play (DPS Flurry Ranger, support Bard, DPS Ranged Fire Kineticist), and I'm replacing the Fighter who plays as a sort of flex guy.
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Apr 30, 2024 22:07
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Very valid point/question. We're doing Level 6. Everybody else is playing characters they know how to play (DPS Flurry Ranger, support Bard, DPS Ranged Fire Kineticist), and I'm replacing the Fighter who plays as a sort of flex guy. This fight is probably going to rely on Hampering Sweeps, Tripping, and Reactive Strike. Assuming that you're coming fully armed and this is a solo boss, my thoughts are that you'd want a Also you probably wouldn't be using Taunt in this fight. vvv Oop. Thank you. I knew one of the two had a +3. ZZT the Fifth fucked around with this message at 23:01 on Apr 30, 2024 |
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Apr 30, 2024 22:49
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ZZT the Fifth posted:my thoughts are that you'd want a tower shield for that extra +1, Are you thinking of a fortress shield? Tower shield is the option that gives you a an additional +2, but only if you spend an extra action.
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Apr 30, 2024 22:57
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ZZT the Fifth posted:This fight is probably going to rely on Hampering Sweeps, Tripping, and Reactive Strike. Assuming that you're coming fully armed and this is a solo boss, my thoughts are that you'd want a We're going to try it two ways. One of those ways will be without Hampering Sweeps. Yes, I'm aware that the character doesn't function well without it, but that's kind of the point.
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Apr 30, 2024 23:47
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I need some help understanding how curse diseases work. The description does't say how to get rid of it, so I'm trying to piece it together from rules in several places. He failed the save, so now he is both cursed and diseased. It looks like this isn't one of those afflictions where you get to keep making the save every day? He failed once and now the save doesn't matter and he just takes the effect (damage and stupefied 2) once per day? Stupefied lasts all day unless a Restoration spell is used? He can't be healed of the disease or any damage caused by the disease until cured of the curse. Curse can be removed with the aptly named "Remove Curse" spell. But this is a counteract check instead of just working. quote:Counteracting What? The counteract check is against the affliction's DC, but that isn't listed in this stat block. So is it the DC 26 fortitude save number? Or do I use the of the creature that inflicted it, a level 9 mummy so . . . DC 26? Or something else? And this would be vs. the caster's "spellcasting ability modifier plus your spellcasting proficiency bonus" + d20? Basically the same as a spell attack roll against the curse DC. Once the curse is lifted damage from the disease can be healed, but the disease itself is not healed. How do you heal the disease? quote:Treat Disease We've used Treat Disease before, but that just gives you a bonus to your next saving throw to the disease. Except this disease doesn't have saving throws? Once you have it you have it until you die, I think, you'll never recover naturally. Does that mean you can't cure it with Treat Disease and would have to use the "Remove Disease" spell? Once you've used Remove Curse and Cure Disease successfully does that mean the Stupefied 2 goes away by itself, or do you have to finish off with a Restoration spell?
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May 1, 2024 04:44
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ZZT the Fifth posted:I had a realization about Taunt. You're not supposed to taunt everything - mostly the little guys who peel away from you to go after your back line. For the big guys, you're supposed to move in to engage them and keep them stuck to you with stuff like Hampering Sweeps and Athletics moves (which Guardian already starts trained in and emphasizes Strength for). Kinda just seems worse at doing that than a champion with the one exception of a level 2 feat (Hampering sweeps)
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May 1, 2024 04:59
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Once you hit level 2, you make a saving throw every single day. That is what the (1 day) at the end of the stage 2 effect means. You can make the save, but that just means that it goes to the 'carrier with no ill effects' stage, which has a one minute timer; you're going to fail that eventually. Yes, the stupefied 2 lasts all day because of the disease. Yes, you use the DC 26 number to indicate the target number for a counteract roll., and yes it's basically the same as a spell attack roll. Once the curse is lifted, 2 successful saving throws in a row (or one critical success on a saving throw) will get rid of the disease, as succeeding on a stage 1 (or crit succeeding on a stage 2) gets rid of a disease. The stupefied 2 will go away whenever the target is no longer in stage 2.
Hellioning fucked around with this message at 05:06 on May 1, 2024 |
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May 1, 2024 05:02
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When the afflictions timer is up it hits again and the victim needs to make another save. If they fail, they stay in final stage. The player makes a new save every day until they recover from the disease. The curse is basically just making the disease impossible to recover from until you cure the curse. Cure the curse, follow normal affliction rules from there. DC would be 26 since it’s the listed DC for the affliction. Here’s the affliction rules https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2389&Redirected=1
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May 1, 2024 05:10
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Facebook Aunt posted:I need some help understanding how curse diseases work. The description does't say how to get rid of it, so I'm trying to piece it together from rules in several places. This is correct.* quote:Stupefied lasts all day unless a Restoration spell is used? Yes. quote:He can't be healed of the disease or any damage caused by the disease until cured of the curse. Curse can be removed with the aptly named "Remove Curse" spell. But this is a counteract check instead of just working. I am pretty sure the affliction's DC is the 26 fortitude save number, since that is the only DC in the stat block. The "counteract level" is also relevant here -- it's the half the creature's level, rounded up, so 5. So if you cast Remove Curse at rank 4, you can remove the curse on a success, since the mummy rot's counteract level is only 1 greater than Remove Curse's counteract level (which in turn is equal to the spell rank). If you could get an NPC or whoever to cast Remove Curse at rank 6, though, they could remove the curse even on a failed check. quote:And this would be vs. the caster's "spellcasting ability modifier plus your spellcasting proficiency bonus" + d20? Basically the same as a spell attack roll against the curse DC. Correct, assuming you don't have anything else that helps the check here. quote:Once the curse is lifted damage from the disease can be healed, but the disease itself is not healed. How do you heal the disease? Treat Disease is helpful here, but not necessary. The player will make a saving throw every day. On a critical success, they are cured. On a regular success, they move back to stage 1, and have to make another save after a minute. If they succeed there, they are cured; if they fail, they are back to stage 2 for another day. quote:Once you've used Remove Curse and Cure Disease successfully does that mean the Stupefied 2 goes away by itself, or do you have to finish off with a Restoration spell? No need for any further action after the disease is gone; Stupefied goes away as soon as the player is not in Stage 2. Note that not all conditions work this way. For example, Drained and Doomed have a specific way that they reduce their values (get a full night's rest), so those apply. If there is nothing like that listed for the condition, though, it gets better when the condition causing it ends. PS: don't feel bad about being confused here; this is definitely the most complex part of PF2e's rules IMO. PPS: I think the rules are ambiguous as to when to make the daily check. I would do it every day at either sunset, sunrise, or midnight, because those seem like cool times to do it. *I think you could make an argument that every day that you are cursed and diseased, when you make your check, you can temporarily reduce your stage to 1, and just not fully heal it. But you have to make a new check every minute until you fail, so it almost certainly doesn't matter, unless there is an action you really really want to take during that minute where you don't want to be stupefied. Whether you can do this depends on whether "cannot be healed" means "can't get any better at all" or "can't be fully gotten rid of". I'd probably pick the latter if they players argue for it, just because I think that is the most interesting.
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May 1, 2024 05:24
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