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How are u posted:
tbh in that situation I totally side with her. It's extremely reasonable to be annoyed when you specifically tell them you want something to be excluded from a food order, only to have it be there. I wouldn't eat that guac either.
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Aug 30, 2022 21:22
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Ytlaya posted:It affects less than this, because the actual "production" from livestock farms isn't going to change based upon your own consumer choices. It's not like, by choosing not to buy chicken, you're bringing the chicken that was killed back to life. Or that the company is going to be aware that you didn't buy chicken at a restaurant and reduce its chicken production by 1 in the future. It's the sort of consumer choice that has literally zero impact unless it reaches a threshold where it makes farms actually decrease their "production." And I would argue that it's impossible for enough consumers to voluntarily reduce their consumption to such a degree, because our society/economy is so strongly intertwined with meat production. A real meaningful decrease would require government action (and this would require a fundamental change to our political system). There's a good chance that, even if there was a significant and widespread change in consumer behavior, meat production would still stay the same, with the products just being used in different ways (sort of like we've seen with other farming products, where the industry is powerful and has its own influence over the government, which provides it with subsidies). Agreed, except I feel that sometimes fish don't get butchered quickly enough. I've seen some cases in Japan where I feel like in the search for "the freshest fish possible" that the fish gets dragged to hell and back just so it can get slaughtered in your own home I guess. I would much rather that fish and shellfish get killed immediately and painlessly before going through any market system. The technology exists for shellfish to get zapped immediately and instantly die before they know what's going on. I just wish it was more widespread. Maybe it might be marketable for seafood companies to offer this service, who knows, maybe emailing them about it would be worthwhile. But yeah, other than that I agree completely.
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Aug 30, 2022 21:51
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How are u posted:I was using it as an example of how somebody who does not eat meat can be thoughtfully flexible and considerate if the context requires it. The hard vegan would refuse the hospitality and not care if it was offensive. It would be pretty weird to get incredibly offended by someone saying "no thank you."
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Aug 30, 2022 22:15
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god please help me posted:I mean. I'm just concerned by that article since it seems that according to it, only 3.7% of the sample household spent anything on a meat substitute. You can certainly eat a diet of nothing but carbs and vegetables and have it indeed be inexpensive in comparison, but god that's not going to be healthy nor is it going to be that great if you're a working class poor person who does very labor intensive jobs (like me). Eating meat strikes the best nutrition/cost balance for working class poor people. I do not mind there being more people choosing a vegan diet, but there is a decent risk of being malnourished for those who don't know what they're doing. It is probably worth considering that "tried it, filled up on carbs, no attempt to make up the protein" does not impart the nutritional expertise to weigh in on what is generally going to be healthy or no. Protein is readily available from lots of plant sources that aren't gonna be regarded as "meat substitute."
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Aug 30, 2022 22:27
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ReadyToHuman posted:It would be pretty weird to get incredibly offended by someone saying "no thank you." If people who basically have nothing scrape together their most precious ingredients to offer you the best possible hospitality and you refuse on principle, that's kind of a dick move. Though they may not say it, in their eyes that action can mean "Your meat isn't worth eating and you failed as a host." Srice posted:tbh in that situation I totally side with her. It's extremely reasonable to be annoyed when you specifically tell them you want something to be excluded from a food order, only to have it be there. I wouldn't eat that guac either. On the one hand, that woman sounds a bit exhausting to hang out with. On the other hand, I'd be annoyed with that restaurant too if they add stuff which was explicitly excluded in the order. Sure it's just some cheese sprinkles due to a personal eating habit. But would they act the same way if you'd request keeping out shellfish due to severe allergies? cant cook creole bream fucked around with this message at 22:40 on Aug 30, 2022 |
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Aug 30, 2022 22:36
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cant cook creole bream posted:If people who basically have nothing scrape together their most precious ingredients to offer you the best possible hospitality and you refuse on principle, that's kind of a dick move. Though they may not say it, in their eyes that action can mean "Your meat isn't worth eating and you failed as a host." If they truly can't wrap their minds around the idea that there are people who don't eat meat and are offended if someone politely refuses while explaining that they don't eat meat, that's all on them.
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Aug 30, 2022 22:41
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ReadyToHuman posted:It would be pretty weird to get incredibly offended by someone saying "no thank you." I definitely disagree, it can be very offensive to refuse hospitality, especially when the people offering the hospitality are sacrificing / spending a lot in doing so. cant cook creole bream posted:On the one hand, that woman sounds a bit exhausting to hang out with. Totally. There's an enormous difference, from my perspective, between dangerous food allergies and and diet restrictions that are purely a choice. I would have been right there with the cheese-refuser if she had a terrible cheese allergy. How are u fucked around with this message at 22:45 on Aug 30, 2022 |
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Aug 30, 2022 22:41
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ReadyToHuman posted:It would be pretty weird to get incredibly offended by someone saying "no thank you." It’s really not that weird or unusual for someone to get offended when they offer food or a gift to another person who declines the offer. Really offended/infuriated, sure, maybe that is unusual. But offended? Not really.
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Aug 30, 2022 22:41
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ReadyToHuman posted:It is probably worth considering that "tried it, filled up on carbs, no attempt to make up the protein" does not impart the nutritional expertise to weigh in on what is generally going to be healthy or no. Protein is readily available from lots of plant sources that aren't gonna be regarded as "meat substitute." Brown rice and legumes are still carbs.
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Aug 30, 2022 22:51
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I'd love to get some more protein from lentils and other legumes, since they can be quite delicious, but they give me massive indigestion with strong gas. So that alternative nutrition isn't really for me. My body tends to prefer high protein and barely any carbs. Like chicken breast with mushrooms and eggs. I even feel bloated and heavy if I eat a lot of rice. cant cook creole bream fucked around with this message at 23:02 on Aug 30, 2022 |
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Aug 30, 2022 22:58
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I think it takes a while for your body to get used to the fiber intake. Edit: oh if you get that from rice, maybe that isn’t it. silence_kit fucked around with this message at 23:04 on Aug 30, 2022 |
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Aug 30, 2022 23:02
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OP, what's your opinion on lab grown meat? Do you support its use as a temporary substitute for real meat? Do you support its use as a permanent major food source for humanity? I've encountered vegans who are opposed to it and I wonder if there is a coherent reasoning against it that goes beyond the disgust factor. I guess it's more carbon intensive than eating plant food directly, but assume production methods improve enough that's it's on par with other luxury foods like strawberries or kiwis.
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Aug 30, 2022 23:03
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Tofu is pretty low in carbs and high in protein. Ditto with seitan, though it's not as low carb as tofu (though it has a wildly high amount of protein in it).
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Aug 30, 2022 23:04
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cant cook creole bream posted:I'd love to get some more protein from lentils and other legumes, since they can be quite delicious, but they give me massive indigestion with strong gas. So that alternative nutrition isn't really for me. I can relate to this, and I actually have a soy allergy as well so overall vegetarian/vegan diets are pretty much untenable for me. I am very interested in lab-grown meat becoming both more common, and higher quality, though.
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Aug 30, 2022 23:08
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cant cook creole bream posted:If people who basically have nothing scrape together their most precious ingredients to offer you the best possible hospitality and you refuse on principle, that's kind of a dick move. Though they may not say it, in their eyes that action can mean "Your meat isn't worth eating and you failed as a host." I do not think this situation comes up much outside of an RPG.
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Aug 30, 2022 23:12
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Fun fact, 75% of the population are lactose intolerant. Most people have gastrointestinal bacteria that allows them to process it to some degree. Many vegans have bacteria that has adapted to their diet. From experience surprise cheese can come at a high price. The pescatarian who works with people in marginalized communities in which meat dishes are cultural and traditional touchstones seems like an amazing person. I assume that you agree the analogy with your friend refusing an incorrect order of nachos could be seen as antagonistic.
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Aug 30, 2022 23:13
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GABA ghoul posted:OP, what's your opinion on lab grown meat? Do you support its use as a temporary substitute for real meat? Do you support its use as a permanent major food source for humanity? I've encountered vegans who are opposed to it and I wonder if there is a coherent reasoning against it that goes beyond the disgust factor. I guess it's more carbon intensive than eating plant food directly, but assume production methods improve enough that's it's on par with other luxury foods like strawberries or kiwis. Lab meat is funny because it has to be fed with fresh blood serum. It'll mitigate the harm of animal agriculture but still needs fresh animals to be processed to keep growing the cultures. The vegetable sciences have come a long way, so the vat meat may wind up being fairly superfluous for most use cases.
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Aug 30, 2022 23:16
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How are u posted:I definitely disagree, it can be very offensive to refuse hospitality, especially when the people offering the hospitality are sacrificing / spending a lot in doing so. It's pretty normal if you're going to some Great Lengths to provide hospitality to learn anything about your guests. "Do they have any dietary restrictions" is a very normal thing to ask because there are a lot of things people can't or won't eat for ethical, religious or health reasons.
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Aug 30, 2022 23:19
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It’s definitely arguable whether it is really host’s responsibility to make special accommodations for one person when they could just pick off the cheese on the guacamole. Now if you exclusively associate with society which is heavily Vegan, well, then that’s different.
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Aug 30, 2022 23:23
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god please help me posted:Brown rice and legumes are still carbs. I do not think you know what a carb is. Lots of foods contain multiple macronutrients in different amounts.
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Aug 30, 2022 23:23
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ReadyToHuman posted:I do not think you know what a carb is. Lots of foods contain multiple macronutrients in different amounts. In that case, I don't think you get that meat contains more protein than rice and beans.
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Aug 30, 2022 23:27
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silence_kit posted:It’s definitely arguable whether it is really host’s responsibility to make special accommodations for one person when they could just pick off the cheese on the guacamole. I have to know what the situation is where you get offered a bowl of cheezy guac and everyone will be mad if you decline politely. What is the pretext, is this a relative? A coworker? Is it a cookout or an office party or a psychological gauntlet when you meet your honey's parents?
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Aug 30, 2022 23:30
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god please help me posted:In that case, I don't think you get that meat contains more protein than rice and beans. Are you on the Jordan Peterson diet or something?
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Aug 30, 2022 23:34
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I dislike the philosophical argument because I think it follows the flawed modern logic that we exist outside of nature but I'm with the rest of it since even with a view that we exist within nature as a large predator we're still committing actions that will lead to a collapse of our species and a large diet change would help stop that.
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Aug 30, 2022 23:41
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ReadyToHuman posted:I have to know what the situation is where you get offered a bowl of cheezy guac and everyone will be mad if you decline politely. What is the pretext, is this a relative? A coworker? Is it a cookout or an office party or a psychological gauntlet when you meet your honey's parents? I don't know what to tell you man. If you are in a large group of people at a dinner party, gathering, or are picking a restaurant to go to, and you, the Vegan, are in the minority, you are forcing everybody/the planner/the host to make special accommodations for you, or to not accommodate you at all. Many people feel like they have a social obligation to accommodate everybody. Many people despise picky eaters for this reason--their opinion often doesn't wildly change when the reason why you don't eat a huge variety of foods is a moral one that they don't personally agree with. Food is deeply cultural. silence_kit fucked around with this message at 23:49 on Aug 30, 2022 |
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Aug 30, 2022 23:44
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How are u posted:I was using it as an example of how somebody who does not eat meat can be thoughtfully flexible and considerate if the context requires it. The hard vegan would refuse the hospitality and not care if it was offensive. That sounds reasonable. I personally find one person's dramatic and fussy is another person expressing boundaries. Going to a restaurant, telling them your restrictions, and having them screw that up is a big deal for the person with restrictions. If they had accidentally put a tiny bit of pork on top I don't think anyone would think it reasonable to ask someone to eat around the non kosher food. The whole food discussion is very... silly. As a picky eater I suck it up and eat the thing I don't want in the 1% of situations where it would be a sacred offense to not eat and in the other 99% no one gives a poo poo and I'm not some shunned pariah. Gumball Gumption fucked around with this message at 23:51 on Aug 30, 2022 |
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Aug 30, 2022 23:46
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ReadyToHuman posted:Are you on the Jordan Peterson diet or something? I think this post illustrates the reason why most people are turned away by veganism tbh. There's the animal wellfare component that I want to believe most people are receptive to, but god forbid the accusations of being a "carnist" or (insert famous bad person who is strident about eating only meat here) are inevitable. I'm not too sure about the rules of D&D, because there is a very famous vegetarian who did even worse bad things than Jorp I could link to. Anyway, I still don't think animal welfare requires veganism nor do I appreciate rude vegans trying to dunk on me for having a bad time trying to ascribe to their nutritional guidelines. Primarily I think that improving agriculture, yes even plant agriculture, on a legislative measure would be a better way reduce animal suffering.
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Aug 30, 2022 23:59
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ReadyToHuman posted:It's pretty normal if you're going to some Great Lengths to provide hospitality to learn anything about your guests. "Do they have any dietary restrictions" is a very normal thing to ask because there are a lot of things people can't or won't eat for ethical, religious or health reasons. In the cases that I'm referencing the hosts have been Indigenous people and the food has been traditional recipes / dishes that are served on special occasions for valued guests. I, personally, would feel hugely uncomfortable and rude refusing that hospitality. Your milage may vary.
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Aug 31, 2022 00:09
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Gumball Gumption posted:I dislike the philosophical argument because I think it follows the flawed modern logic that we exist outside of nature but I'm with the rest of it since even with a view that we exist within nature as a large predator we're still committing actions that will lead to a collapse of our species and a large diet change would help stop that. What about environmental or health based arguments? I don't see a lot of value in judging other people on what they choose to eat, I do find hearing their reasoning interesting though. Think of it like recycling, on a global scale I am fully aware my impact is next to nothing. That doesn't stop me from doing it because it meshes with my moral philosophy.
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Aug 31, 2022 00:11
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I feel like veganism specifically is odd from an environmental point of view because volume matters a lot more than your personal elimination of every particular product. If everyone cut like, I dunno, a tenth of the meat they eat it would have the same effect as making one in ten people completely vegan. I would interpret it as a very after-the-fact argument. The personal moral one is more consistent.
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Aug 31, 2022 00:14
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OwlFancier posted:I feel like veganism specifically is odd from an environmental point of view because volume matters a lot more than your personal elimination of every particular product. If everyone cut like, I dunno, a tenth of the meat they eat it would have the same effect as making one in ten people completely vegan. I would interpret it as a very after-the-fact argument. The personal moral one is more consistent. Sure, but given you only really have agency over yourself, if you cut it out it achieves the same as if ten people had cut down as by your example.
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Aug 31, 2022 00:27
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What I mean is that I think that radical a dietary change is likely to have a bit of a limit on how widely it's going to be adopted, and I don't think it necessarily gets at the core of the environmental argument either. I also think that a lot of its present growth is down to it being commodified by capitalism itself as way to sell people a sense of moral superiority in the form of marked-up vegetable products, similarly to all other kinds of "more ethical consumption" type stuff, but that this is likely to reach something of a limit if it threatened the viability of the animal product industry, as you would see far more counter-messaging. I suppose I am skeptical of the extent of its effectiveness as something that I think is extremely dependent on that commodification. Frankly I'm not sure if it has much staying power either other than as a food fad, though it is of course possible that food shortages will in time necessitate the transition to a more staples based diet, but that isn't voluntary veganism in the here and now, that's disaster response on an economic planning level in the future, and would happen regardless of veganism as a concept. Recycling is a good comparison in that as far as I'm aware most of the stuff I recycle just goes to landfill anyway via a more roundabout process and probably overseas, so doing it probably isn't actually helping, but I might as well rearrange the deck chairs on the titanic I suppose. It's something to do.
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Aug 31, 2022 00:51
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god please help me posted:Spending a lifetime on an alternative diet plan can only affect the animals you would've consumed in your own individual lifespan. Improving laws that will enrich the lives of livestock animals as a whole well beyond what they would naturally experience in nature (which is to say, short brutal deaths because nature is mean and there are no peaceful natural deaths)? Well that's something I do find worth struggling for. Why do you think those who are vegan aren't pushing for legislative efforts? I can tell you with 100% confidence that a lot of them do (including myself years ago). The more people you get into veganism, the more people you'll get to push for these efforts (even if it's not a 1:1 ratio). You should look up the work done by organizations such as Animal Legal Defense Fund, Humane Society of the United States, Mercy for Animals, etc. They are why protection acts have gotten passed over the years (e.g. CA Proposition 2 in 2008, CA Proposition 12 in 2018, etc). Kalit fucked around with this message at 01:25 on Aug 31, 2022 |
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Aug 31, 2022 01:14
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How are u posted:In the cases that I'm referencing the hosts have been Indigenous people and the food has been traditional recipes / dishes that are served on special occasions for valued guests. I, personally, would feel hugely uncomfortable and rude refusing that hospitality. Your milage may vary. What an incredibly rare and specific example, like I said you suck it up in the 1% of the times it would be a sacred offense and 99% no one gives a gently caress if you have a special diet. There's also about a million miles of air between your friend not eating cheese and a sacred indigenous meal so I don't know how your argument wandered to that. Gumball Gumption fucked around with this message at 01:37 on Aug 31, 2022 |
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Aug 31, 2022 01:34
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Content to Hover posted:What about environmental or health based arguments? I don't see a lot of value in judging other people on what they choose to eat, I do find hearing their reasoning interesting though. Yeah, I pretty much agree with all of that in the part of the post past the first few words.
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Aug 31, 2022 01:35
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OwlFancier posted:I feel like veganism specifically is odd from an environmental point of view because volume matters a lot more than your personal elimination of every particular product. If everyone cut like, I dunno, a tenth of the meat they eat it would have the same effect as making one in ten people completely vegan. I would interpret it as a very after-the-fact argument. The personal moral one is more consistent. veganism is a combo of just maximizing good, "if 1 good is good then 2 good is better" kinda stuff, along with just being Ethically Correct in regards to the treatment of sentient beings personally i'll point out that vegetarian/veganism and philosophies of ethical food consumption are as old as human civilization itself yet meat eating remains broadly popular, and also it is disrespectful to the species we've spent thousands of years breeding as livestock to not eat them
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Aug 31, 2022 01:46
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Gumball Gumption posted:What an incredibly rare and specific example, like I said you suck it up in the 1% of the times it would be a sacred offense and 99% no one gives a gently caress if you have a special diet. There's also about a million miles of air between your friend not eating cheese and a sacred indigenous meal so I don't know how your argument wandered to that. The person I was originally responding to asked about flexibility, so I gave an example of such, coupled with an example of inflexibility. It sounds like you agree that flexibility is a good thing in circumstances that warrant it. I'm sure everybody has their own definition of what circumstances should require flexibility. I don't think there's any One Correct Way, but I certainly know what I feel to be appropriate circumstances myself.
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Aug 31, 2022 01:50
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OwlFancier posted:... I might as well rearrange the deck chairs on the titanic I suppose. It's something to do. I don't really disagree with your analysis. If you chooses to be vegan and are a realist you pretty much have to accept you are doing it for yourself. Depending on how you feel about the various arguments, doing something you feel is right can make you feel a little better about yourself as a person. Sometimes that is enough.
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Aug 31, 2022 02:24
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How are u posted:The person I was originally responding to asked about flexibility, so I gave an example of such, coupled with an example of inflexibility. It sounds like you agree that flexibility is a good thing in circumstances that warrant it. I'm sure everybody has their own definition of what circumstances should require flexibility. I don't think there's any One Correct Way, but I certainly know what I feel to be appropriate circumstances myself. I've got to ask, would you have expected your friend to have eaten around the cheese if it was a religious restriction?
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Aug 31, 2022 02:48
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The environmental/social argument doesn't hold water for me because it frames it according to the "personal responsibility" model. What I mean by this is that the argument is that one can, acting as an individual, by their choice to be a vegan, they can effect society-wide change in order to positively benefit the cause of animal welfare or the environment. This isn't convincing for me, because the marginal effect of a single individual in a society of 8 billion is minimal. At the scale necessary to effect material change, individual actions are replaceable: if you choose not to consume animal products, then someone else will. In effect, the animals exploited, the greenhouse gases emitted, are already baked into the system by the time you make your choice; the animals, raised in order to be food, are already dead. Now this doesn't mean that I oppose one's individual preference to be a vegan. In fact, I have already easily transitioned into a 4/3, 5/2 vegan/pescatarian diet simply because I prefer it that way. I've found that I like eating vegan food more than I like non-vegan food, and that I like eating seafood more than land food. I also agree with the argument from the standpoint of personal ethics. But to claim that individuals making the choice to become vegan because doing so will help X or Y social cause is somewhat specious to me, because socially effective changes require social-scale decisions, social-scale actions. In essence, it's not comparing apples to oranges. The correct tool for dealing with the cause of animal welfare would be to put pressure on manipulating the system of animal protection, the correct tool for dealing with the root cause of CO2 emissions from factory farming would be to put pressure on ending the system of factory farming. It requires a legal response, a response on the order of a conscientious social movement, not an individual response. EDIT: Essentially, I disagree with the framing of the topic. I think it should be "Why we should encourage veganism" or "Why we should stop society-wide animal cultivation". EDIT2: And well, Ytlaya already made my argument upthread. Woops! 
DrSunshine fucked around with this message at 03:10 on Aug 31, 2022 |
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Aug 31, 2022 03:05
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