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Ytlaya posted:It affects less than this, because the actual "production" from livestock farms isn't going to change based upon your own consumer choices. It's not like, by choosing not to buy chicken, you're bringing the chicken that was killed back to life. Or that the company is going to be aware that you didn't buy chicken at a restaurant and reduce its chicken production by 1 in the future. It's the sort of consumer choice that has literally zero impact unless it reaches a threshold where it makes farms actually decrease their "production." And I would argue that it's impossible for enough consumers to voluntarily reduce their consumption to such a degree, because our society/economy is so strongly intertwined with meat production. A real meaningful decrease would require government action (and this would require a fundamental change to our political system). There's a good chance that, even if there was a significant and widespread change in consumer behavior, meat production would still stay the same, with the products just being used in different ways (sort of like we've seen with other farming products, where the industry is powerful and has its own influence over the government, which provides it with subsidies). DrSunshine posted:The environmental/social argument doesn't hold water for me because it frames it according to the "personal responsibility" model. Do you vote?
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Aug 31, 2022 03:36
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Enjoy posted:Do you vote? Why would this be relevant?
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Aug 31, 2022 03:41
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Harold Fjord posted:Why would this be relevant? It's an individual action people take in hopes of other people doing the same on a large scale, in order to change society for the better. Definitely interested in how those two posters respond. If they're Marxists and say they don't I'd then bring up the law of the transformation of quantity into quality.
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Aug 31, 2022 03:51
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I would say that encouraging people to vote for politicians who will enact system-wide top-down climate action is probably more worthwhile than trying to convince people to become vegans person-by-person. Voting is a tool that can unlock large systemic changes in a much quicker timeframe than it would take to convince everybody to voluntarily become vegan. This is just from the perspective of the climate change / environmental argument.
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Aug 31, 2022 03:54
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How are u posted:I would say that encouraging people to vote for politicians who will enact system-wide top-down climate action is probably more worthwhile than trying to convince people to become vegans person-by-person. Voting is a tool that can unlock large systemic changes in a much quicker timeframe than it would take to convince everybody to voluntarily become vegan. This is just from the perspective of the climate change / environmental argument. We can do both, as I do.
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Aug 31, 2022 03:56
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Enjoy posted:Do you vote? Why is the reply so short? Those were very good attempts to take this topic seriously.
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Aug 31, 2022 04:04
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god please help me posted:Why is the reply so short? Those were very good attempts to take this topic seriously. Why have you not replied to my response to your post? It was a good attempt to take your post seriously.
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Aug 31, 2022 04:06
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god please help me posted:Why is the reply so short? Those were very good attempts to take this topic seriously. I think it will demonstrate that they are either hypocrites or doomers (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 31, 2022 04:07
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Kalit posted:Why have you not replied to my response to your post? It was a good attempt to take your post seriously. why is everyone so sarcastic and snippy? I was actually quite positive about your post because I'm more interested in the legislation part about it, but I think I just need to distance myself from everything vegan related at this rate. And besides some of the posts and points that I've made went uncommented on anyway besides the post getting called Jordan Peterson for getting back on to the standard after getting malnutrition from trying to follow vegan diet guides online. I think I'm pretty much done here, and won't look at the resources you posted. Enjoy posted:I think it will demonstrate that they are either hypocrites or doomers I don't really have much to say about that, then. God, please don't attack me for whatever reply I'm trying to make nonsarcastically. I think I'm pretty much done here.
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Aug 31, 2022 04:58
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The "individual choices/actions don't matter" is a bit tiresome because all choices and actions are made by individuals, and to convince yourself that none of them matter is a bad life philosophy, both for yourself and for others. Certainly you can use this idea to justify any unethical behavior, but internalizing the thought will make you unhappy. The 100 million strong vegan movement has absolutely changed the world for the better already and might save us all yet. But in the end, what matters to me is that i live according my ethics and beliefs. Mata fucked around with this message at 07:56 on Aug 31, 2022 |
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Aug 31, 2022 07:48
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Enjoy posted:I think it will demonstrate that they are either hypocrites or doomers How did you become a vegan, for you personally was there an issue that held more weight? Your first post was diverse, which I think is great because in my experience there are many different reasons why people choose to become vegan. I don't know if you would view my posting as that of a doomer, but it is somewhat apparent we have reached a similar point through different paths. Is the position of the two longer arguments you quoted something you disagree with? If so, why? Personally I'm inclined to agree that individual action is limited. But so what? This is true for almost all of the greater issues facing society. Rather than dismissing their arguments, you can easily point out that you are doing what you can. You did more than me by starting this conversation. I would like to thank you for that by the way. I generally lurk and the way you raised the topic made me engage. You raised a contentious topic with a good effort post including varied arguments.
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Aug 31, 2022 10:27
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Going full vegan still seems unnecessarily extreme. We'd probably get optimal* results pushing people to poultry over red meat. *In terms of total benefit. more people doing a little vs one guy doing a lot and diminishing returns as you eliminate various animal products. I think we'll also get more effective** results pushing to vote away factory farms than by trying to undermine them economically one spender at a time. Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 13:14 on Aug 31, 2022 |
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Aug 31, 2022 13:11
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Harold Fjord posted:Going full vegan still seems unnecessarily extreme. Chicken rocks. I suspect that the US is kind of already trending that way, maybe due to cost of beef. It seems like fast food is becoming more chicken-oriented. Chicken sandwiches and chicken restaurants seem to be becoming more popular than burgers and burger places. Harold Fjord posted:I think we'll also get more effective** results pushing to vote away factory farms than by trying to undermine them economically one spender at a time. The idea of de-industrializing food production doesn't make a lot of sense, IMO, unless your goal is to make food more expensive and scarce.
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Aug 31, 2022 13:20
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Well, the official thread goal is to make people stop eating meat and that's how you get it done. Expensive and scarce.
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Aug 31, 2022 13:21
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Oh you just mean meat production. OK. Good luck with that--I think it would be wildly unpopular in the US. The reason why meat production is industrialized in the US is because people here overwhelmingly want meat to be plentiful and cheap. The idea of de-industrializing all of farming is also an often-stated left-wing food politics idea, and doesn't make a lot of sense IMO. In other threads on this forum, posters make statements like: 'healthcare and college education are human rights'. Well you greatly reduce the wealth of society and totally throw those kinds of ideas out the window by calling for a return to subsistence farming. silence_kit fucked around with this message at 13:57 on Aug 31, 2022 |
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Aug 31, 2022 13:55
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Do you not perceive any room at all between subsistence farming and our currently massively abusive and unsustainable factory farming system?
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Aug 31, 2022 14:06
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Harold Fjord posted:Do you not perceive any room at all between subsistence farming and our currently massively abusive and unsustainable factory farming system? I think asking for food production to be more costly and more inefficient is asking for people in the first world to lower their standards of living. Good luck with that. Food would become more expensive, less readily available, have less variety, etc. One of the great things about living in a modern society is that you have constant access to a large variety of foods at low cost. This is a part of the standard of living in the first world. Goons (and other people did this too, but given the political bent of Goons, this makes Goons the biggest hypocrites) during the height of the COVID pandemic wailed and gnashed their teeth whenever there was a shortage of some kind of product that they had become accustomed to, which lowered their standard of living even in the most minor way.
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Aug 31, 2022 14:20
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silence_kit posted:Oh you just mean meat production. OK. Good luck with that--I think it would be wildly unpopular in the US. The reason why meat production is industrialized in the US is because people here overwhelmingly want meat to be plentiful and cheap. Let’s split the difference and stop subsidizing the livestock industry so much more than other aspects of the food industry (well, non junk food aspects). In case you didn’t know, that’s the only reason why meat is so cheap in our country Kalit fucked around with this message at 14:43 on Aug 31, 2022 |
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Aug 31, 2022 14:26
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Please argue with things people actually post and not your rough sense what they will do politically based on the fact that you read someone complain on the internet about something once I actually agree with you that any of this is unlikely until it is mandated by disaster but that's why I shifted to talking about relative impact and achievability
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Aug 31, 2022 14:36
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silence_kit posted:I think asking for food production to be more costly and more inefficient is asking for people in the first world to lower their standards of living. Good luck with that. Food would become more expensive, less readily available, have less variety, etc. One of the great things about living in a modern society is that you have constant access to a large variety of foods at low cost. This is a part of the standard of living in the first world. I don't really get these arguments unless your point is just to outline what's going to get us all killed. Like yeah, getting people to lower the quality of living in the first world is not easy and very ugly. The quality of living in the first world is also killing the planet and our species. Identifying that something is hard to do doesn't mean you've identified if it's possible or necessary. I don't know if Veganism is the answer but we absolutely need to make changes in our diets as a species because we're currently working to a collapse. We can't sustain ourselves long term with our current practices and I fear that the decline of quality of life will come either by hook or crook. Gumball Gumption fucked around with this message at 15:04 on Aug 31, 2022 |
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Aug 31, 2022 14:57
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Content to Hover posted:How did you become a vegan, for you personally was there an issue that held more weight? Your first post was diverse, which I think is great because in my experience there are many different reasons why people choose to become vegan. I saw video of male chicks in the egg industry being fed into a macerator and then tried to analyse why I found it repulsive. I'd seen vegan arguments before but it hadn't registered emotively until then. The short essay under 1.1 is basically a distillation of my thoughts. The process took a few years, because I had to be prodded to go from pescetarianism to vegetarianism to veganism. Some people need prodding to get out of their cognitive safe space.
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Aug 31, 2022 17:20
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Enjoy posted:I saw video of male chicks in the egg industry being fed into a macerator and then tried to analyse why I found it repulsive. I'd seen vegan arguments before but it hadn't registered emotively until then. The short essay under 1.1 is basically a distillation of my thoughts. Yeah, those videos doesn't push me to veganism but 7 billion male chicks being born each year just to get thrown into a grinder because they're a male chick is a good example of modern agriculture being wastefully broken. Edit: The current progress in this field for the agriculture industry has been being able to more actually sex the unhatched eggs and destroying them early in the egg development. Germany has recently adopted this and outlawed chick culling. It's better but still I marvel at the scale of waste it produces. Gumball Gumption fucked around with this message at 17:48 on Aug 31, 2022 |
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Aug 31, 2022 17:45
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How are u posted:I would say that encouraging people to vote for politicians who will enact system-wide top-down climate action is probably more worthwhile than trying to convince people to become vegans person-by-person. Voting is a tool that can unlock large systemic changes in a much quicker timeframe than it would take to convince everybody to voluntarily become vegan. This is just from the perspective of the climate change / environmental argument. When I see a politician who will do that then yes, certainly. Unfortunately the best available are still trying to maybe enact some policy which will incentivize people to individually make more ecologically-friendly consumer choices, which kind of ties back to veganry.
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Aug 31, 2022 19:06
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ReadyToHuman posted:When I see a politician who will do that then yes, certainly. Unfortunately the best available are still trying to maybe enact some policy which will incentivize people to individually make more ecologically-friendly consumer choices, which kind of ties back to veganry. If you're referencing the recently passed IRA then I'm happy to inform you that the vast vast majority of the climate provisions in that law are meant to encourage systems-wide change in entire industries, rather than depending on consumers changing industries from the bottom-up.
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Aug 31, 2022 19:11
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How are u posted:If you're referencing the recently passed IRA then I'm happy to inform you that the vast vast majority of the climate provisions in that law are meant to encourage systems-wide change in entire industries, rather than depending on consumers changing industries from the bottom-up. ... Primarily through incentives, in the hopes that they can nudge the market toward sorting this out.
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Aug 31, 2022 22:04
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in a world of completely vegan humans, how would we handle pet cats and other obligate carnivores?
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Aug 31, 2022 22:23
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ReadyToHuman posted:... Primarily through incentives, in the hopes that they can nudge the market toward sorting this out. It's not so much "hoping" the market will "nudge" as much as it is smashing the fist of government down on the scale, in favor of clean energy industries. All of the analysis from a plethora of parties agrees that it will be transformational.
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Aug 31, 2022 22:41
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Mr. Fall Down Terror posted:in a world of completely vegan humans, how would we handle pet cats and other obligate carnivores? That question presupposes that vegans are a monolith. We aren't and as a thought experiment, a premise that nobody believes will come to pass isn't particularly useful. I can only speak for myself, to me the decision to choose my actions and their consequences is the fundamental reason I am vegan. I don't see cats as being capable of similar decision making and as you say they are obligate carnivores. In New Zealand before the arrival of humans there were two mammals, both bats. Cats were brought over and now we have a feral cat issue. There are many wonderful and endangered species of birds that do not exist anywhere else in the world. Life is full of plenty of compromises. I acknowledge the reasons that people run trap lines to catch and humanely kill cats. I know that I personally do not have it in me to do this. Maybe there is some degree of hypocrisy in that, I view it as being self aware.
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Aug 31, 2022 23:10
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Gumball Gumption posted:I don't really get these arguments unless your point is just to outline what's going to get us all killed. Like yeah, getting people to lower the quality of living in the first world is not easy and very ugly. The quality of living in the first world is also killing the planet and our species. What is wrong with industrial agriculture? Similarly, what problems does de-industrializing agriculture solve?
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Aug 31, 2022 23:40
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silence_kit posted:What is wrong with industrial agriculture? Similarly, what problems does de-industrializing agriculture solve? The first post in this thread has multiple sections about the issues with industrial agriculture that are well laid out, brief and even has links.
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Sep 1, 2022 02:41
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silence_kit posted:What is wrong with industrial agriculture? Similarly, what problems does de-industrializing agriculture solve? Eh, I think you've fallen off track since I would say that there isn't anything wrong with industrialized agriculture. A modern vegan agriculture would still be industrialized. The argument that this line started from seems to be about the current practices within our farming industry like factory farming which the OP does have a lot of info about the farm is causing. I just don't know what to tell you, we get fat steaks on the table and a dead planet or no fat steaks and an alive planet. We're not really getting both.
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Sep 1, 2022 03:59
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Harold Fjord posted:Going full vegan still seems unnecessarily extreme. If you look at it purely in terms of animal welfare, or more specifically animal death, cows (or larger animals in general) will feed more people with fewer deaths than chickens will. Beef: 1 animal dies and feeds a family for a year. Chicken: 1 animal dies and feeds a family for a day. Shrimp: more than one animal dies to feed a single person a single meal. Now that's obviously not looking at any other factors like the resources necessary to raise a pound of meat from a cow vs. a chicken, or the relative intelligence/capacity for suffering of different animals (which we can only make educated guesses at, unless one of us has personal experience living as a shrimp). But I've always preferred "one animal dies and feeds me for a long time" over "every time I get hungry something has to die".
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Sep 1, 2022 08:59
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Great thread so far! Love discussing this topic. I’ve been vegetarian for about ten years now, and fully vegan for about four, with no intention of ever going back short of a full-on survival situation. The OP touches on a lot of my own reasons for going vegan, along with a few others that weren’t really on my radar but make a lot of sense to me. My #1 reason for going vegan hasn’t been discussed in this thread at all yet, and it’s a little more subjective so maybe not totally in the spirit of this discussion, but what about plain old revulsion at the idea of consuming body parts and fluids and so on? Back in my pre-veggie days, my idea of paradise was to be on a sunny patio with a frosty pint and a big basket of crispy golden brown chicken wings. It got to the point where I couldn’t even enjoy that anymore because I couldn’t stop my brain from reminding me constantly “THIS IS THE WING OFF A DEAD BIRD”. I want nothing to do with dead birds. I see them on the street sometimes and I make a point to avoid them. I would never pick one up and I would certainly never put one in my mouth. I recognize there’s an enormous hygienic difference between a piece of roadkill and chicken properly prepared in a restaurant, but fundamentally they’re both still just a dead bird. The meat was the bird’s flesh, the bones were his bones. A basket of wings is a scene of carnage and gore. It got to the point where that was just no longer okay with me.
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Sep 1, 2022 13:18
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I feel like that road leads you down "my skin is constantly covered in microorganisms writhing around and they're in my mouth and eyes and body and they're constantly multiplying and living in my secretions" Like yes it's true but it doesn't really matter.
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Sep 1, 2022 18:16
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mnlr posted:Great thread so far! Love discussing this topic. I’ve been vegetarian for about ten years now, and fully vegan for about four, with no intention of ever going back short of a full-on survival situation. Yeah this was a big part of it for me. It was like a switch flipped in my brain and I couldn't stomach meat any more. I grew up on a farm and used to hunt when I was a kid but I just changed when I was about 16. People asked me if I found it difficult to go vego and I genuinely haven't at all. I have basically zero self control with food and if it was difficult I could never do it! That's also probably the reason I'm vegetarian not vegan - I don't get that same revulsion from cheese!
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Sep 2, 2022 04:22
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OwlFancier posted:I feel like that road leads you down "my skin is constantly covered in microorganisms writhing around and they're in my mouth and eyes and body and they're constantly multiplying and living in my secretions" I don't see why that thinking wouldn't stop at things with sentience. There are mainstream religions that follow the same thinking as that post, not really with your example.
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Sep 2, 2022 04:29
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If you see a dead bird or other creature on the street, definitely pick it up (with a stick or gloves or something) and move it to the side of the road. It may not look appetizing to you, but they are definitely a jackpot for others and putting it on the side of the road makes eating it much, much safer for them! Crows and ravens in particular will remember you for this, and it's the easiest way to make corvid pals in your neighbourhood. It's at the point where there have been times they've somehow managed to steal meat from stores and the final step involves me cutting open the packaging. I'd post a pic but this probably isn't the place to share a picture of a sack of hundreds of dead mice they stole from a reptile store (I think??) and dragged to my bike path to have it cut open. (Sorry for interrupting, I just want everyone to know the One Easy Trick to making crow buddies)
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Sep 2, 2022 07:50
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How are u posted:I definitely disagree, it can be very offensive to refuse hospitality, especially when the people offering the hospitality are sacrificing / spending a lot in doing so. The issue, as I see it, is that the person honoring the food preference request (the restaurant, the host, whatever) doesn't necessarily know whether it's a food allergy or not, nor do they need to know, and either way should not be making assumptions. Like, what if they assume it's just "pickiness" but it was actually a religious requirement? There are a billion reasons someone might not eat something and it's not for other people to decide which ones are important enough to honor. Either honor the request or make it clear that it's impossible for whatever reason. No one should ever be "tricked" into eating something they don't want to. It's really that simple. Clarste fucked around with this message at 08:05 on Sep 5, 2022 |
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Sep 5, 2022 08:03
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e: unhelpful
platzapS fucked around with this message at 18:09 on Sep 5, 2022 |
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Sep 5, 2022 10:22
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platzapS fucked around with this message at 18:09 on Sep 5, 2022 |
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Sep 5, 2022 10:24
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