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gently caress i thought i was in cspam
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Sep 5, 2022 10:29
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platzapS posted:gently caress i thought i was in cspam No irony here comrade, we are saving the world from capitalism's excesses
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Sep 5, 2022 10:32
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god please help me posted:In that case, I don't think you get that meat contains more protein than rice and beans. The idea that you can't get enough protein from a vegan diet doesn't hold any water. At least as long as you don't have a legume allergy. Elukka fucked around with this message at 11:30 on Sep 5, 2022 |
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Sep 5, 2022 11:22
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Elukka posted:Depends on the bean. You can definitely get enough protein from them. Use protein/calorie as the figure of merit. Lean chicken and tuna are almost pure protein, with some fat. Lentils are like 2/3 carbs, 1/3 protein. Elukka posted:The idea that you can't get enough protein from a vegan diet doesn't hold any water. At least as long as you don't have a legume allergy. I would agree with that. The amount of protein that you really need in your diet I think is overstated, especially if you are like most Americans and don't do a lot of physical activity. silence_kit fucked around with this message at 11:40 on Sep 5, 2022 |
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Sep 5, 2022 11:38
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silence_kit posted:Use protein/calorie as the figure of merit. Lean chicken and tuna are almost pure protein, with some fat. Lentils are like 2/3 carbs, 1/3 protein. Humans need 2,000 calories a day to live. People who need to worry about protein, like weightlifters, athletes and manual labourers, might need 3,000 calories or more!
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Sep 5, 2022 11:40
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cant cook creole bream posted:I'd love to get some more protein from lentils and other legumes, since they can be quite delicious, but they give me massive indigestion with strong gas. So that alternative nutrition isn't really for me. seek the assistance of a medical professional, your GI tract is clearly malfunctioning if you can't tolerate rice or legumes.
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Sep 5, 2022 11:45
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Enjoy posted:Humans need 2,000 calories a day to live. People who need to worry about protein, like weightlifters, athletes and manual labourers, might need 3,000 calories or more! The following is not a problem that most people who live in the first world have (they usually have the opposite problem), but a great thing about animal-based food products for people who need high calorie diets is that they can have a high protein density and a high caloric density. You don't need to spend all day eating to get the calories you need. I've never followed a vegan diet, but have had plenty of vegan meals which didn't have some kind of ingredient which served as a meat substitute. The thing that struck me the most about them was that I could just keep eating and eating the food. I would get tired of the act of eating before getting full. This is probably a good thing for most Americans, but for people who actually need high calorie diets (which most people do not) it is kind of a bad thing. silence_kit fucked around with this message at 12:20 on Sep 5, 2022 |
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Sep 5, 2022 12:13
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silence_kit posted:The following is not a problem that most people who live in the first world have (they usually have the opposite problem), but a great thing about animal-based food products for people who need high calorie diets is that they can have a high protein density and a high caloric density. You don't need to spend all day eating to get the calories you need. I don't think this is a reasonable criticism when compared to the benefits to animal welfare, individual health and the environment.
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Sep 5, 2022 13:39
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silence_kit posted:The following is not a problem that most people who live in the first world have (they usually have the opposite problem), but a great thing about animal-based food products for people who need high calorie diets is that they can have a high protein density and a high caloric density. You don't need to spend all day eating to get the calories you need. who are you talking about here, michael phelps or somebody? this seems like such a niche example it's not worth discussing. even people who work physical jobs tend to eat too much, as evidenced by the number of overweight blue collar workers. The computer toucher who deadlifts isn't gonna need a whole lot more than maintenance--assuming they want to be at a healthy bodyweight, of course. The need for calories is greatly overstated in general.
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Sep 5, 2022 13:52
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I didn’t bring it up. Enjoy did.
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Sep 5, 2022 15:33
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silence_kit posted:The following is not a problem that most people who live in the first world have (they usually have the opposite problem), but a great thing about animal-based food products for people who need high calorie diets is that they can have a high protein density and a high caloric density. You don't need to spend all day eating to get the calories you need. What point are you trying to make? Vegan powerlifters/athletes in general exist, so we know it’s not impossible. Sure, a vegan diet for high calorie diets requires more planning since it’s not a mainstream thing. But I’m having a hard time figuring out what you’re trying to say with these vague statements.
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Sep 5, 2022 16:19
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Read my post as a reply to Enjoy’s post. High energy density/high protein density food sources, like animal food products, are great for high calorie diets.
silence_kit fucked around with this message at 16:27 on Sep 5, 2022 |
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Sep 5, 2022 16:23
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Don't the fake meat substitutes have similar caloric and protein content to real meat? That could be a decent solution since it seems like they have way lower environmental impact than meat, though a bit higher than raw plants. From this article I skimmed earlier: https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/09/how-sustainable-are-fake-meats/ Anyway most people in rich countries should be eating fewer calories, not more.
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Sep 5, 2022 16:27
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silence_kit posted:Read my post as a reply to Enjoy’s post. High energy density/high protein density food sources, like animal food products, are great for high calorie diets. That’s why I’m asking for clarification. It sounds like you’re implying that it’s infeasible to get quality calories for a high protein diet from vegan sources. But things such as tofu/pea protein powder/etc are still really high in protein relative to their total calorie contents
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Sep 5, 2022 16:42
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Kalit posted:That’s why I’m asking for clarification. It sounds like you’re implying that it’s infeasible to get quality calories for a high protein diet from vegan sources. But things such as tofu/pea protein powder/etc are still really high in protein relative to their total calorie contents Follow the thread! I came into the thread to reply to Elukka to say that beans are not that great a source of protein. Even the high protein beans are mostly carbs. Enjoy replied to my post to say that protein density of foods is not an important figure of merit, since people who really need protein need to eat a lot of calories in general. I replied to his post to say that, in the rare case where you actually need a lot of protein and a high calorie diet, an often important constraint is energy/protein density of food. It becomes hard to eat a large amount of calories if you stick to low calorie density foods. (An aside--I suspect that probably most of the touted health benefits of moving away from animal products and towards more plant-based diets are likely due to this effect. It is harder to overeat and to get fat when you restrict yourself to low calorie density foods.) A great thing about animal products for people who need high calorie diets is that they tend to be more calorie and protein dense than plant-based products. This is the only argument I was making! silence_kit fucked around with this message at 16:56 on Sep 5, 2022 |
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Sep 5, 2022 16:51
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silence_kit posted:Follow the thread! I came into the thread to reply to Elukka to say that beans are not that great a source of protein. Even the high protein beans are mostly carbs. Enjoy replied to my post to say that protein density of foods is not an important figure of merit, since people who need high calorie diets need to eat a lot of calories in general. I am following the thread? My point is a vegan diet is not a constraint for athletes with proper planning!
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Sep 5, 2022 16:56
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The last time there was a vegan discussion I asked if anyone could post good vegan recipes that didn't involve something weird as a subsistute. Iirc I got posted a buncha stuff with yeast sludge pretending to be cheese So the animals are gonna have to continue taking one for the team. I do wanna try it out some day though cause I just have no idea what you'd even eat. I cook a lot of diff stuff and I don't think any of them are vegan. Salads without any good dressing or cheese... I could make daal without ghee I guess or veggie chilli without stock or lard
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Sep 5, 2022 17:04
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Kalit posted:I am following the thread? My point is a vegan diet is not a constraint for athletes with proper planning! Yeah, in principle, you could be vegan. Or you could just eat chicken, tuna, eggs, etc. like most of the rest of the first world. silence_kit fucked around with this message at 17:07 on Sep 5, 2022 |
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Sep 5, 2022 17:04
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Communist Thoughts posted:The last time there was a vegan discussion I asked if anyone could post good vegan recipes that didn't involve something weird as a subsistute. https://www.bbc.co.uk/food/diets/vegan silence_kit posted:Yeah, in principle, you could be vegan. Or you could just eat chicken, tuna, eggs, etc. like most of the rest of the first world. Three quarters of Americans are obese or overweight https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/obesity-overweight.htm so you should avoid eating like the rest of the first world. Enjoy fucked around with this message at 17:19 on Sep 5, 2022 |
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Sep 5, 2022 17:12
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tricking people into trying BBC recipes is assault e: whoops didnt realise i was posting in D&D, i'll shitpost less funny that the first 2 recipes i clicked on were for fake fishfingers made of cauliflower and olives (!?) and some kinda fake sausage casserole tho Communist Thoughts fucked around with this message at 17:35 on Sep 5, 2022 |
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Sep 5, 2022 17:32
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Communist Thoughts posted:The last time there was a vegan discussion I asked if anyone could post good vegan recipes that didn't involve something weird as a subsistute. In general, there are really good/fairly simple recipes with a large variety of cuisines at https://minimalistbaker.com. Not everything is vegan, but most of the recipes are. If you’re a fan of Korean food, one of my favorite easy/simple recipes that doesn’t use meat/seafood like substitutes is https://vegan8korean.wordpress.com/2010/12/05/gaji-bap-eggplant-rice-recipe/. As a side note, I usually sub a crushed up nori sheet for the kelp powder. Or if I’m out of nori sheets, I’ll just omit it and it’s still delicious Kalit fucked around with this message at 18:09 on Sep 5, 2022 |
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Sep 5, 2022 18:04
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Communist Thoughts posted:The last time there was a vegan discussion I asked if anyone could post good vegan recipes that didn't involve something weird as a subsistute. Think of it like eating any different cuisine, if you just use vegan substitutes for ingredients you are familiar with it will probably taste wrong to your sensibilities. Lots of meat free recipes are predicted on the fact people don't like getting outside their comfort zone, which is why you get something pretending to be cheese or fake fishfingers. You mentioned ghee, so obviously you aren't unfamiliar with Indian food. There are plenty of Indian dishes that don't contain meat and never have. For a long time, meat was expensive so most cultures have plenty of dishes that don't have much if any meat in them. Your comment about lard in veggie chilli and salads without cheese or dairy based dressing make it sound like you want to eat meat and dairy without having to defend yourself. Personally I feel if that is the case, go ahead. Not sure why you would need to post about it in this particular thread though.
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Sep 5, 2022 18:12
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The way I think of it is that vegetables = spices. So you want to go in on curries and other dishes that don't rely too much on protein for flavor, and then just add like edamame or something for texture (but definitely not as a meat "substitute"). Edit: Then again, I am a terrible cook so whatever. Clarste fucked around with this message at 18:25 on Sep 5, 2022 |
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Sep 5, 2022 18:22
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There are many nice veggie and rice Frozen packets that make it perfectly good meal without meat. Trader Joe's sells one.
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Sep 5, 2022 18:26
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Communist Thoughts posted:The last time there was a vegan discussion I asked if anyone could post good vegan recipes that didn't involve something weird as a subsistute. I make the Budget Bytes lentil chili recipe a lot and as listed it's vegan. I'm definitely of the mind that if you're going to exclude animal products, you should just work with that instead of trying to work around something pretending to be an animal product. https://www.budgetbytes.com/slow-cooker-vegetarian-lentil-chili/ I don't cook with meat but I'll eat it if served to respect hospitality and I don't trust non-fish sources of omega-3 so I'll dig into sardines as well. I think it's a more realistic model for wider adoption because all you'd have to do to create it is stop subsidizing meat production. Also you'd probably get full fascism in the next cycle but there'd be more animals alive for it at the start at least
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Sep 5, 2022 18:34
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Out of curiosity, is there a vegan position on "rewilding" ideas involving the reintroduction of animal species to habitats in order to improve their resiliance? Because to me it would seem to be something that they should oppose.
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Sep 5, 2022 18:50
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OwlFancier posted:Out of curiosity, is there a vegan position on "rewilding" ideas involving the reintroduction of animal species to habitats in order to improve their resiliance? There are plenty of positions, many of which have outspoken members who will tell you that they speak with authority for all vegans. My position would be that nothing exists in a vacuum. Climate change makes the idea of stable habitats pretty dubious. I am not quite sure what you think I oppose. Is there an argument predicted on the idea that vegans should oppose animals behaving naturally or is it some other aspect?
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Sep 5, 2022 19:17
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I would generally take the position that animals behaving naturally is still really poo poo for them, nature is barbaric and I don't think animals in their natural state have what I would call a good quality of life, much in the sense that humans are subject to horrific conditions that it requires constant effort and industry for us to try to minimise. But when the existence of those animals is predicated on human intervention I don't really see how it is different from agricultural use combined with neglect? You're breeding animals for human benefit and not looking after them. Which, I mean, I'm fine with because I don't have an issue with using animals for human ends generally, but it would seem like it would conflict with veganism. But a lot of people seem to think that even if humans have the ability to intervene in "natural" affairs, what happens within our possible control is sort of... not under the scope of moral judgement as long as a human isn't actively the one doing it. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 19:23 on Sep 5, 2022 |
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Sep 5, 2022 19:20
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I think not looking after them is better than locking them in cages their entire lives. I suppose there's a certain weirdness to the idea that we can just abandon an animal in the wilderness and just wash our hands of any responsibility for what happens afterward, but... I don't think there's a canon "vegan" stance on animal cruelty other than that factory farms are particularly bad, or rather the idea that an animal is a machine that we can freely extract value out of however we want. Life in the wild may not be paradise, but it's living, as it were.
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Sep 5, 2022 19:26
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It would be interesting if we collectively decided to work on improving life for all animals cause I do agree that the wild looks like it sucks and seems to mean constant hunger, anxiety and violence for a lot of animals. I suppose there's a kind of Star Trek style prime directive thinking here, but I never really agreed with the idea of that either personally.
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Sep 5, 2022 19:37
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I suppose generally the thing that sticks with me is that it is necessary to at least accept that humans are going to be making all the decisions for animals, basically all the time, because there are very few of them that are not in some way within our reach. Thus I don't really see a great distinction between direct-human-inflicted suffering or human-absence-subsequent suffering. If it is OK to keep animals around to starve and kill each other because it contributes to our own environmental security, or just because we imagine it to be aesthetically pleasing, then I find it difficult to say that we can't keep them around to kill and eat. You could certainly make the argument that we could improve the process by which we do that to reduce some of the suffering involved but I don't think that is quite veganism, which appears to seek to totally divest from animal exploitation, or at least to do so in a more extreme form than simply improving agricultural processes.
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Sep 5, 2022 19:50
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There is an argument that the action of intentionally causing suffering is harmful in and of itself. I'm not a particularly optimistic person, I don't see the liklihood of vegans as a movement being in a position to make the larger societal decisions you are talking about. While such hypotheticals are interesting, I think that the decision to become vegan is basically a personal one. Usually based on animal welfare although from an ecological point of view meat reduction is hard to argue with.
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Sep 5, 2022 20:45
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im an omnivore and probably dont have the will to change my habits, but i will say that its really not that hard to get as much protein as you want on a vegetarian diet, and certainly i could easily get enough to support my bodybuilding and other athletic pursuits. if you're going full vegan it can be a little harder, but it just requires a little research and planning (or you can just get vegan 'whey' which completely solves the issue and is probably about the same cost per calorie as meat)Coxswain Balls posted:(Sorry for interrupting, I just want everyone to know the One Easy Trick to making crow buddies) oh cool thank you i love crows
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Sep 5, 2022 21:32
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I did not even realize there was a D&D vegan thread! There I was over in c-spam trying to get real discussion going.Communist Thoughts posted:tricking people into trying BBC recipes is assault A lot of pop culture vegan recipes are like that to try to show that people can eat similar to how they eat now without learning how to cook all over again. I think it's usually better to focus on more whole foods but it's hard to convince someone to harm less animals while also trying to get them to start from square 1 in the kitchen. It's easy to ease into recipes you already know and go for easy swaps like lentils or TVP for mince etc. If you're curious for fully plant based options there are plenty of great recipes that are a google search away. Try to think outside your cultural conditioning for a second though. Why are plants breaded and fried strange but fish blended up, pressed together into shapes, breaded, and fried normal? Why are heavily processed animal parts in casing fine but plants processed and shaped in the same way wrong? Cheese sauce (a secretion from a cow, pasturized, heavily processed, fermented and melted down) is ok, but a cashew based alternative is fake sludge? OwlFancier posted:Out of curiosity, is there a vegan position on "rewilding" ideas involving the reintroduction of animal species to habitats in order to improve their resiliance? Generally veganism is a stance against human exploitation of animals although there are interesting discussions to be had around re-wilding. That's a different ethical and environmental argument however and it seems a bit like fussing over the colour of the carpet when the house is on fire. I'm not sure what the alternative would be though. If the world went vegan and we did not need so much land devoted to agriculture then what else would we do with all that space? I could pave over it to reduce suffering but I think restoring the ecosystem makes more sense even if it entails wild animal suffering. It's a tricky problem but has basically nothing to do with what you plan to buy at the grocery store. OwlFancier posted:You could certainly make the argument that we could improve the process by which we do that to reduce some of the suffering involved but I don't think that is quite veganism, which appears to seek to totally divest from animal exploitation, or at least to do so in a more extreme form than simply improving agricultural processes. Doing something wrong a little better is still wrong. It would be more morally consistent to stop. Even in idyllic conditions and even if the suffering is removed, breeding and killing animals at a fraction of their lifespan for a sandwich is still harm. DrBox fucked around with this message at 00:38 on Sep 8, 2022 |
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Sep 8, 2022 00:35
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DrBox posted:Doing something wrong a little better is still wrong. It would be more morally consistent to stop. Even in idyllic conditions and even if the suffering is removed, breeding and killing animals at a fraction of their lifespan for a sandwich is still harm. This seems to be a fundamental disagreement on what harm means.
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Sep 8, 2022 02:04
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Harold Fjord posted:This seems to be a fundamental disagreement on what harm means. I mean they could specify further, but killing is generally considered harm. You may not agree with the ethical argument as to whether it matters, but a dead animal was definitely harmed.
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Sep 8, 2022 02:48
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There are many painless deaths that I would say are harmless for animals but harmful to unwilling humans.
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Sep 8, 2022 02:59
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Harold Fjord posted:This seems to be a fundamental disagreement on what harm means. Suffering I would describe as pain or chronic discomfort. Basically the status quo for modern animal agriculture. Harm is more vague but I would consider killing a sentient being with an interesting in their own life and who does not want to die to be an example of harm. Do you disagree with either of those interpretations?
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Sep 8, 2022 03:17
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I agree that a cow can suffer. I don't know that I agree that it has "interests" the way people do. Things get very squirrely when you start really digging into these kinds of "harms" and the moral action you demand of people, because there's so much human suffering too. Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 03:42 on Sep 8, 2022 |
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Sep 8, 2022 03:40
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Harold Fjord posted:I agree that a cow can suffer. I don't know that I agree that it has "interests" the way people do. Do you really believe that? Only cows, or do you think this for dogs and cats as well? These animals have personalities and seem to exhibit desires and preferences. They avoid situations that cause them pain or make them afraid. As far as we can tell they seem to have an interest in continuing their life as much as any other animal. They do not have to have interests in exactly the same way people do in order to merit moral consideration but we can look to their behavior and infer they have some interest in their life or have a will to continue living. Here is a cool link that show some interesting behavior. Cows appear to have complex social lives and even mourn their dead. https://www.peta.org/issues/animals...20their%20loss. Harold Fjord posted:Things get very squirrely when you start really digging into these kinds of "harms" and the moral action you demand of people, because there's so much human suffering too. DrBox fucked around with this message at 03:52 on Sep 8, 2022 |
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Sep 8, 2022 03:49
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