Why You Should Go Vegan

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Why You Should Go Vegan

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

god please help me posted:

Spending a lifetime on an alternative diet plan can only affect the animals you would've consumed in your own individual lifespan. Improving laws that will enrich the lives of livestock animals as a whole well beyond what they would naturally experience in nature (which is to say, short brutal deaths because nature is mean and there are no peaceful natural deaths)? Well that's something I do find worth struggling for.

I have no faith that veganism can do much by itself without any legislative effort to improve agriculture. It just feels so much the same way that oil corporations placed blame on individuals using the notion of a "personal carbon footprint," so that way no one would notice the major systemic issues.

I don't want to poo poo on people for doing what the feel is better for them, of course. I just want to know if there are any legislative pushes I can help support that improves animal welfare.

Why do you think those who are vegan aren't pushing for legislative efforts? I can tell you with 100% confidence that a lot of them do (including myself years ago). The more people you get into veganism, the more people you'll get to push for these efforts (even if it's not a 1:1 ratio).

You should look up the work done by organizations such as Animal Legal Defense Fund, Humane Society of the United States, Mercy for Animals, etc. They are why protection acts have gotten passed over the years (e.g. CA Proposition 2 in 2008, CA Proposition 12 in 2018, etc).

Kalit fucked around with this message at 01:25 on Aug 31, 2022

# ¿ Aug 31, 2022 01:14

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# ¿ May 14, 2024 16:08

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

god please help me posted:

Why is the reply so short? Those were very good attempts to take this topic seriously.

Why have you not replied to my response to your post? It was a good attempt to take your post seriously.

# ¿ Aug 31, 2022 04:06

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

silence_kit posted:

Oh you just mean meat production. OK. Good luck with that--I think it would be wildly unpopular in the US. The reason why meat production is industrialized in the US is because people here overwhelmingly want meat to be plentiful and cheap.

The idea of de-industrializing all of farming is also an often-stated left-wing food politics idea, and doesn't make a lot of sense IMO. In other threads on this forum, posters make statements like: 'healthcare and college education are human rights'. Well you greatly reduce the wealth of society and totally throw those kinds of ideas out the window by calling for a return to subsistence farming.

Let�s split the difference and stop subsidizing the livestock industry so much more than other aspects of the food industry (well, non junk food aspects). In case you didn�t know, that�s the only reason why meat is so cheap in our country

Kalit fucked around with this message at 14:43 on Aug 31, 2022

# ¿ Aug 31, 2022 14:26

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

silence_kit posted:

The following is not a problem that most people who live in the first world have (they usually have the opposite problem), but a great thing about animal-based food products for people who need high calorie diets is that they can have a high protein density and a high caloric density. You don't need to spend all day eating to get the calories you need.

I've never followed a vegan diet, but have had plenty of vegan meals which didn't have some kind of ingredient which served as a meat substitute. The thing that struck me the most about them was that I could just keep eating and eating the food. I would get tired of the act of eating before getting full. This is probably a good thing for most Americans, but for people who actually need high calorie diets (which most people do not) it is kind of a bad thing.

What point are you trying to make?

Vegan powerlifters/athletes in general exist, so we know it�s not impossible. Sure, a vegan diet for high calorie diets requires more planning since it�s not a mainstream thing. But I�m having a hard time figuring out what you�re trying to say with these vague statements.

# ¿ Sep 5, 2022 16:19

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

silence_kit posted:

Read my post as a reply to Enjoy�s post. High energy density/high protein density food sources, like animal food products, are great for high calorie diets.

That�s why I�m asking for clarification. It sounds like you�re implying that it�s infeasible to get quality calories for a high protein diet from vegan sources. But things such as tofu/pea protein powder/etc are still really high in protein relative to their total calorie contents

# ¿ Sep 5, 2022 16:42

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

silence_kit posted:

Follow the thread! I came into the thread to reply to Elukka to say that beans are not that great a source of protein. Even the high protein beans are mostly carbs. Enjoy replied to my post to say that protein density of foods is not an important figure of merit, since people who need high calorie diets need to eat a lot of calories in general.

I replied to his post to say that, in the rare case where you actually need a high calorie diet, an often important constraint is energy/protein density of food. It becomes hard to eat a large amount of calories if you stick to low calorie density foods. (An aside--I suspect that probably most of the touted health benefits of moving away from animal products and towards more plant-based diets are likely due to this effect) A great thing about animal products for people who need high calorie diets is that they tend to be more calorie and protein dense than plant-based products. This is the only argument I was making!

I am following the thread? My point is a vegan diet is not a constraint for athletes with proper planning!

# ¿ Sep 5, 2022 16:56

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

Communist Thoughts posted:

The last time there was a vegan discussion I asked if anyone could post good vegan recipes that didn't involve something weird as a subsistute.

Iirc I got posted a buncha stuff with yeast sludge pretending to be cheese

So the animals are gonna have to continue taking one for the team.

I do wanna try it out some day though cause I just have no idea what you'd even eat. I cook a lot of diff stuff and I don't think any of them are vegan. Salads without any good dressing or cheese...
I could make daal without ghee I guess or veggie chilli without stock or lard

In general, there are really good/fairly simple recipes with a large variety of cuisines at https://minimalistbaker.com. Not everything is vegan, but most of the recipes are.

If you�re a fan of Korean food, one of my favorite easy/simple recipes that doesn�t use meat/seafood like substitutes is https://vegan8korean.wordpress.com/2010/12/05/gaji-bap-eggplant-rice-recipe/. As a side note, I usually sub a crushed up nori sheet for the kelp powder. Or if I�m out of nori sheets, I�ll just omit it and it�s still delicious

Kalit fucked around with this message at 18:09 on Sep 5, 2022

# ¿ Sep 5, 2022 18:04

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

Harold Fjord posted:

I agree that a cow can suffer. I don't know that I agree that it has "interests" the way people do.

On top of what DrBox posted, if you want a non-PETA source of how cows interact/show personalities, here's a University of Sydney study: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-54968-4

Kalit fucked around with this message at 04:26 on Sep 8, 2022

# ¿ Sep 8, 2022 03:59

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

silence_kit posted:

What I don't understand is animal rights activists who dedicate most of their lives to the political issue. There are so many injustices in this world, and animal welfare is what they selected as their moral crusade? Come on.

Why do you look down upon those who do? And do you think the people who you�re talking about aren�t fighting [directly] against other injustices too?

Kalit fucked around with this message at 13:00 on Sep 8, 2022

# ¿ Sep 8, 2022 12:55

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

silence_kit posted:

If someone is making the noble decision to dedicate their entire life to a moral/social/political cause, and the issue they select is animal welfare, I think it reveals that their sense of morality is wack. There are so many greater injustices in this world for moral crusaders to dedicate their lives to than the well-being of animals.

But why do you think it�s more inferior than whatever else? Do you think, for a single example, someone who spends their life advocating for rescuing/re-homing dogs from inhumane conditions (dog fighting, abusive homes, etc) also have a wack sense of morality?

Kalit fucked around with this message at 13:55 on Sep 8, 2022

# ¿ Sep 8, 2022 13:51

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

Harold Fjord posted:

This might also be the wrong word. But virtue signalling means they don't care. I think they do. I think animal welfare is fraught and complicated and veganism is an easy answer. But that doesn't make it the most correct or moral.

I think most of the US would highly disagree with this. If it was, most people would be vegan by this point.

# ¿ Sep 9, 2022 15:49

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

Harold Fjord posted:

I think most of the US doesn't give a poo poo but maybe you have some evidence otherwise

Here's some polls:
https://news.gallup.com/poll/183275/say-animals-rights-people.aspx

quote:

Almost a third of Americans, 32%, believe animals should be given the same rights as people, while 62% say they deserve some protection but can still be used for the benefit of humans. The strong animal rights view is up from 2008 when 25% thought animals' rights should be on par with humans'.

https://today.yougov.com/topics/society/articles-reports/2022/05/31/american-support-strengthening-laws-animal-cruelty

quote:

Nearly half of Americans (46%) believe that animal-cruelty laws in the U.S. are not strict enough, while about one-third (32%) say they�re about right and 5% say they�re too strict.

quote:

About one in three Americans say that animals don�t have enough legal rights in society. A similar share say animal rights are good as is, and only 8% say animals have too many legal rights.

As a reminder, ~10% of the US population is vegetarian: https://allianceforscience.cornell.edu/blog/2022/03/1-in-10-americans-say-they-dont-eat-meat-a-growing-share-of-the-population/. Full veganism is a little harder to find, maybe 2-6%: https://www.plantproteins.co/vegan-plant-based-diet-statistics/.

So, if veganism was the easy answer, I expect a lot more people who answered yes about more animal protections would be vegan.

I do really wish people eating less/no meat/animal products was the easy answer, then we'd be doing a lot better on the climate change front.

Kalit fucked around with this message at 16:06 on Sep 9, 2022

# ¿ Sep 9, 2022 16:00

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

Harold Fjord posted:

Vegans are just lazy thinkers.

How so? Does consuming animal products somehow give humans the ability to think more critically? What enlightenment can you bring to the table? Beyond shitposting one liners, like you've been doing for most of this page

# ¿ Sep 9, 2022 16:41

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

Epic High Five posted:

Yeah I've looked into the algal oil and it looks promising, the big issue there is that it's way more expensive and my dog doesn't like capsules and he needs it at least as much as I do for his old joints. I figure if all the animal products I consume is a bottle of cod liver oil a month I'm in pretty good shape, mostly just curious about the science/ethics on this point.

I'm far from an expert, but here's a study done in 2011 for ALA vs EPA/DHA: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3223874/. Most of it is well above my comprehension, but the conclusion from it is (FA = fatty acid):

quote:

In conclusion, adults with metabolic syndrome taking (n-3) FA from either plant or marine sources for 8 wk, at doses that were either moderate and obtainable through dietary intake or high and would require supplementation, did not show a reduction in the blood concentrations of selected inflammatory markers. Although the relationship between (n-3) FA supplementation or consumption from fish and decreased cardiovascular events is generally accepted, the mechanism for this effect is not fully understood. The potential health benefits of (n-3) FA may be mediated by a mechanism that has an insignificant effect on specific markers of inflammation in the blood, such as the prevention of fatal arrhythmias (45). Further research is warranted to better elucidate the mechanism of action and ideal consumption of (n-3) FA for potential health benefits.

An additional thing to note is that this study was only 8 weeks long, so I don't know if that's a factor in overall conditions either. But yea, I agree that a bottle of cod liver oil/month is nothing in the grand scheme of things anyways.

# ¿ Sep 9, 2022 17:37

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

Harold Fjord posted:

This is a thread about veganism and getting rid of factory farming is one of the arguments in favor of going vegan. I support that goal, but don't see going vegan as necessary. I see veganism as unnecessarily extreme for meeting many of the stated goals.

Maybe I missed it, but who stated a reason to go vegan is to get rid of factory farming? I don't think I've ever even heard anyone state that as a reason for being vegan......

Harold Fjord posted:

gently caress turkeys. Calories per life is an absurd metric. Class solidarity, if any.

As a side note, if you're pro-class solidarity and pro-turkey consumption, you should absolutely be pro-factory farming. Otherwise, only the rich will be able to afford to eat turkeys/meat in general.

# ¿ Sep 9, 2022 19:11

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

Harold Fjord posted:

To the first point, it's in the OP.

Concern for workers rights, assuming that's the part of the OP that you're talking about, is not the same as "getting rid of factory farming".

# ¿ Sep 9, 2022 19:59

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

DrBox posted:

Two differences.

1. Animals do it out of necessity.
2. Animals are not moral agents.

This is torture for taste pleasure.

Your 2nd point is most likely false (one such example). I feel like claiming [non-human] animals have no morals is a talking point about why humans are superior, leading people to think we should care less about them.

# ¿ Sep 10, 2022 02:30

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

DrBox posted:

Displays of empathy and even culture does not mean they have the ability to rationalize morality. Children playing can do the same but we do not consider them moral agents.

Animals do not have to be equal in all respects to be worth moral consideration.

Edit: Here is a writeup on the moral agent vs moral patient distinction.

Don't you think that stating "animals are not moral agents" as an absolute fact is a misleading, at best, statement?

If we go by the everyday definition of it, something like this, they are. Then if you dig into the philosophy of it, then it gets to "well... maybe to some degree, but not the exact same degree as humans" as the definition gets stretched more and more. This is because there is no agreed upon philosophical definition of moral agency. In that article you linked, it even clearly states:

quote:

There is a spectrum of views regarding the moral agency of nonhuman animals (although there is growing evidence that some animals govern their own behavior according to recognizable moral principles such as justice, fairness, loyalty, nonmaleficence, and beneficence, including sacrificing their own interests for the sake of others), as well as expansive interpretations of human moral agency that include heteronomous (as opposed to autonomous) moral agency.[25]

Kalit fucked around with this message at 04:46 on Sep 10, 2022

# ¿ Sep 10, 2022 04:37

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

Harold Fjord posted:

Pet stores as they exist often confine animals in too small spaces. But you seem to oppose any kind of confinement, is that right?

Someone can correct me if I�m wrong, but I think nearly all pet stores [that actually sell animals] are puppy-mill type shops�

# ¿ Sep 11, 2022 04:20

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

DeadlyMuffin posted:

It also increases interest in things like marine preserves. Seafood is one of the only wild things we really eat, the ecological impact of farming matters, but pulling things out of habitat at a massive scale is even more direct. If we did to a forest what bottom trawlers do to the sea, there would be massive outrage.

FYI, mass deforestation is happening in the Amazon Rainforst, primarily due to the livestock industry. Unfortunately there�s no massive outrage, just a handful of news articles each year.

Unless I�m mis-interpreting what you mean by �if we did to a forest what bottom trawlers do to the sea�

Kalit fucked around with this message at 12:30 on Sep 11, 2022

# ¿ Sep 11, 2022 10:54

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

DrBox posted:

No one WANTs to consider themselves guilty of bad things, I agree, but none of this is a reason for me to lie to someone and tell them that reducing the harm they do is good enough of they themselves are acknowledging that it is harm. I will call it a good start and will link veganuary or challenge22.com and suggest that try cutting out all animal products today and see how it goes.

I am not advocating people run down the street pouring red paint on people and screaming at them, I was pointing out why an ethical vegan could not advocate for merely reduction. Pointing out harmful choices is not an attack.

I consider myself an ethical vegan and 1000% advocate for �mere� reduction. I absolutely love meatless Mondays and think it�s done so much to help fight the livestock industry.

I don�t know if you�re American, but it�s so, so much easier to have people here reduce their consumption than to eliminate it. I�d rather have the total amount of meat consumed reduced than to possibly have a few more people who are vegan

# ¿ Oct 17, 2022 01:02

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

World Famous W posted:

since the thread has revived and i just noticed it, i would like to ask for opinions s on something ive pondered for a minute. ive mostly given up buying meat because of environmental reasons (animal ethics and rights are not a huge concern of mine). however, i help at a foodbank at least once a week and bring home meat from it. it amounts for most the meat in my diet.

is it unethical to take meat that is at the rear end end of the supply chain, essentially spoilage headed to the trash, and consume it? ive given no money for it (though the donating stores get tax credits i assume), it will literally go to waste, and im poor and its free

i also take plenty of bread, fruit and vegetables from the food bank as well

For my 2 cents, I wouldn't overthink it. If it's going to be thrown out and no one else wants it, then I would argue there are no noticeable environmental impacts. I'm sure you could go down the rabbit hole of "well if it's marked down as waste vs not then...". But IMO, at that point, eh.

Granted, that could lead to less than desirable social situations, such as refusing meat that's being offered as a meal from family/friends if didn't know you only eat meat that's already going to waste. That's a big part of why I just completely avoid a few different things, such as honey. It's easier for me to just say no to all of it instead of acting like a pretentious rear end in a top hat and refuse a friend's dessert with honey from an unknown source when I eat honey in other [non-bee killing] situations.

In the end, I think reducing meat/animal product consumption is a good goal from an environmental perspective, even if it doesn't end up being 100% of the time.

Kalit fucked around with this message at 07:02 on Nov 21, 2023

# ¿ Nov 21, 2023 06:55

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

Fozzy The Bear posted:

If petroleum is made from old previously-living creatures, does that mean vegans can't buy plastic?

Animals living today aren�t being harmed for petroleum. Broadly speaking, veganism is about minimizing harm to animals that are currently living

# ¿ Jan 10, 2024 19:55

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# ¿ May 14, 2024 16:08

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

steinrokkan posted:

Arguably animals today are, in fact, harmed by petroleum to an ever increasing degree.

I was answering the question within the scope of veganism. Of course petroleum use leads to climate change, but veganism typically focuses on direct harm/murder

# ¿ Jan 11, 2024 00:01

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Why You Should Go Vegan