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Enjoy posted:In 2015, the World Health Organisation reviewed 800 studies, and concluded that red meat is a Group 2A carcinogen, while processed meat is a Group 1 carcinogen.[34] The cause is probably the haem iron in meat, which causes oxidative stress.[35] How can iron be a carcinogen? Isn't it a vital mineral for human diets? I have heard that animal-based iron is more readily absorbed by the body than the other kinds. Aren't vegans often recommended to take iron supplements so they don't become anemic?
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Aug 30, 2022 11:51
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What do you all do when traveling? Animal based products are a big part of the local cuisine in almost every culture around the world. Do you try out foods from other cultures or do you always keep to a Vegan diet in these cases?
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Aug 30, 2022 12:01
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Focusing on how iron is carcinogenic when taken in large amounts seems more than a little misleading, given that vegans often have to pay special attention to their diets to ensure that they get enough iron. Is the amount of iron in the average non-vegan diet unhealthy, or is this a problem manufactured by the OP?
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Aug 30, 2022 14:32
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ReadyToHuman posted:It would be pretty weird to get incredibly offended by someone saying "no thank you." It’s really not that weird or unusual for someone to get offended when they offer food or a gift to another person who declines the offer. Really offended/infuriated, sure, maybe that is unusual. But offended? Not really.
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Aug 30, 2022 22:41
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I think it takes a while for your body to get used to the fiber intake. Edit: oh if you get that from rice, maybe that isn’t it. silence_kit fucked around with this message at 23:04 on Aug 30, 2022 |
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Aug 30, 2022 23:02
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It’s definitely arguable whether it is really host’s responsibility to make special accommodations for one person when they could just pick off the cheese on the guacamole. Now if you exclusively associate with society which is heavily Vegan, well, then that’s different.
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Aug 30, 2022 23:23
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ReadyToHuman posted:I have to know what the situation is where you get offered a bowl of cheezy guac and everyone will be mad if you decline politely. What is the pretext, is this a relative? A coworker? Is it a cookout or an office party or a psychological gauntlet when you meet your honey's parents? I don't know what to tell you man. If you are in a large group of people at a dinner party, gathering, or are picking a restaurant to go to, and you, the Vegan, are in the minority, you are forcing everybody/the planner/the host to make special accommodations for you, or to not accommodate you at all. Many people feel like they have a social obligation to accommodate everybody. Many people despise picky eaters for this reason--their opinion often doesn't wildly change when the reason why you don't eat a huge variety of foods is a moral one that they don't personally agree with. Food is deeply cultural. silence_kit fucked around with this message at 23:49 on Aug 30, 2022 |
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Aug 30, 2022 23:44
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Harold Fjord posted:Going full vegan still seems unnecessarily extreme. Chicken rocks. I suspect that the US is kind of already trending that way, maybe due to cost of beef. It seems like fast food is becoming more chicken-oriented. Chicken sandwiches and chicken restaurants seem to be becoming more popular than burgers and burger places. Harold Fjord posted:I think we'll also get more effective** results pushing to vote away factory farms than by trying to undermine them economically one spender at a time. The idea of de-industrializing food production doesn't make a lot of sense, IMO, unless your goal is to make food more expensive and scarce.
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Aug 31, 2022 13:20
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Oh you just mean meat production. OK. Good luck with that--I think it would be wildly unpopular in the US. The reason why meat production is industrialized in the US is because people here overwhelmingly want meat to be plentiful and cheap. The idea of de-industrializing all of farming is also an often-stated left-wing food politics idea, and doesn't make a lot of sense IMO. In other threads on this forum, posters make statements like: 'healthcare and college education are human rights'. Well you greatly reduce the wealth of society and totally throw those kinds of ideas out the window by calling for a return to subsistence farming. silence_kit fucked around with this message at 13:57 on Aug 31, 2022 |
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Aug 31, 2022 13:55
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Harold Fjord posted:Do you not perceive any room at all between subsistence farming and our currently massively abusive and unsustainable factory farming system? I think asking for food production to be more costly and more inefficient is asking for people in the first world to lower their standards of living. Good luck with that. Food would become more expensive, less readily available, have less variety, etc. One of the great things about living in a modern society is that you have constant access to a large variety of foods at low cost. This is a part of the standard of living in the first world. Goons (and other people did this too, but given the political bent of Goons, this makes Goons the biggest hypocrites) during the height of the COVID pandemic wailed and gnashed their teeth whenever there was a shortage of some kind of product that they had become accustomed to, which lowered their standard of living even in the most minor way.
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Aug 31, 2022 14:20
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Gumball Gumption posted:I don't really get these arguments unless your point is just to outline what's going to get us all killed. Like yeah, getting people to lower the quality of living in the first world is not easy and very ugly. The quality of living in the first world is also killing the planet and our species. What is wrong with industrial agriculture? Similarly, what problems does de-industrializing agriculture solve?
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Aug 31, 2022 23:40
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Elukka posted:Depends on the bean. You can definitely get enough protein from them. Use protein/calorie as the figure of merit. Lean chicken and tuna are almost pure protein, with some fat. Lentils are like 2/3 carbs, 1/3 protein. Elukka posted:The idea that you can't get enough protein from a vegan diet doesn't hold any water. At least as long as you don't have a legume allergy. I would agree with that. The amount of protein that you really need in your diet I think is overstated, especially if you are like most Americans and don't do a lot of physical activity. silence_kit fucked around with this message at 11:40 on Sep 5, 2022 |
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Sep 5, 2022 11:38
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Enjoy posted:Humans need 2,000 calories a day to live. People who need to worry about protein, like weightlifters, athletes and manual labourers, might need 3,000 calories or more! The following is not a problem that most people who live in the first world have (they usually have the opposite problem), but a great thing about animal-based food products for people who need high calorie diets is that they can have a high protein density and a high caloric density. You don't need to spend all day eating to get the calories you need. I've never followed a vegan diet, but have had plenty of vegan meals which didn't have some kind of ingredient which served as a meat substitute. The thing that struck me the most about them was that I could just keep eating and eating the food. I would get tired of the act of eating before getting full. This is probably a good thing for most Americans, but for people who actually need high calorie diets (which most people do not) it is kind of a bad thing. silence_kit fucked around with this message at 12:20 on Sep 5, 2022 |
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Sep 5, 2022 12:13
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I didn’t bring it up. Enjoy did.
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Sep 5, 2022 15:33
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Read my post as a reply to Enjoy’s post. High energy density/high protein density food sources, like animal food products, are great for high calorie diets.
silence_kit fucked around with this message at 16:27 on Sep 5, 2022 |
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Sep 5, 2022 16:23
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Kalit posted:That’s why I’m asking for clarification. It sounds like you’re implying that it’s infeasible to get quality calories for a high protein diet from vegan sources. But things such as tofu/pea protein powder/etc are still really high in protein relative to their total calorie contents Follow the thread! I came into the thread to reply to Elukka to say that beans are not that great a source of protein. Even the high protein beans are mostly carbs. Enjoy replied to my post to say that protein density of foods is not an important figure of merit, since people who really need protein need to eat a lot of calories in general. I replied to his post to say that, in the rare case where you actually need a lot of protein and a high calorie diet, an often important constraint is energy/protein density of food. It becomes hard to eat a large amount of calories if you stick to low calorie density foods. (An aside--I suspect that probably most of the touted health benefits of moving away from animal products and towards more plant-based diets are likely due to this effect. It is harder to overeat and to get fat when you restrict yourself to low calorie density foods.) A great thing about animal products for people who need high calorie diets is that they tend to be more calorie and protein dense than plant-based products. This is the only argument I was making! silence_kit fucked around with this message at 16:56 on Sep 5, 2022 |
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Sep 5, 2022 16:51
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Kalit posted:I am following the thread? My point is a vegan diet is not a constraint for athletes with proper planning! Yeah, in principle, you could be vegan. Or you could just eat chicken, tuna, eggs, etc. like most of the rest of the first world. silence_kit fucked around with this message at 17:07 on Sep 5, 2022 |
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Sep 5, 2022 17:04
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Mr. Fall Down Terror posted:assuming we end animal agriculture, what happens to all the cows? where is the place set aside for cows to live wild and free? Obviously, all of the animal species bred for domestication would have to mostly go extinct. Maybe some can stick around on hobbyist/artisan farms, if that is considered to be morally acceptable. Hobbyist/artisan farms might be good from an animal welfare point of view, but almost certainly they are bad from an environmentalist/economic point of view. For example, the energy inputs needed on a kg of crop or kg of meat basis on a hobbyist/artisan farm are almost certainly higher than what they would be on an industrial farm.
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Sep 8, 2022 11:23
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OwlFancier posted:As I said, though, I think cruelty is an intrinsic state of existence for animals because they don't have any means to escape it on their own, I would personally suggest they have the potential to be better off as livestock than living in the wild, because I don't think ideas like self determination apply to animals. I don't think they would be living in the wild. Likely eventually they would mostly die off, and eventually there would be much less suffering of cows, pigs, chickens, etc. I abstractly understand how/why people personally choose to be vegan from an animal welfare point of view. To change your diet to veganism is a pretty big thing if vegans are a minority in your culture, but it isn't like it totally dominates your life and hugely prevents you from doing other things. Following a strict vegan diet does prevent you from experiencing a huge amount of foods from most of the cultures in the world. Food is very important culturally, but it isn't the totality of human experience, so maybe it isn't that big a loss. What I don't understand is animal rights activists who dedicate most of their lives to the political issue. There are so many injustices in this world, and animal welfare is what they selected as their moral crusade? Come on. silence_kit fucked around with this message at 11:40 on Sep 8, 2022 |
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Sep 8, 2022 11:37
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Kalit posted:Why do you look down upon those who do? And do you think the people who you’re talking about aren’t fighting [directly] against other injustices too? If someone is making the noble decision to dedicate their entire life to a moral/social/political cause, and the issue they select is animal welfare, I think it reveals that their sense of morality is wack. There are so many greater injustices in this world for moral crusaders to dedicate their lives to than the well-being of animals. OwlFancier posted:So you should think about that when considering human use of land and animals, it does not have to be free of suffering, it just has to be compared to a space full of animals doing their normal behaviour, which itself is pretty abhorrent. Yeah, this is a good point--I didn't think of this. But I don't think most people would consider animal suffering in the 'new wilderness' to be equal to animal suffering induced by raising animals for food. The animal suffering induced by animal agriculture would be considered worse because it is more directly caused by humans.
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Sep 8, 2022 13:11
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Enjoy posted:You don't have to be a moral crusader to go vegan, you can just stop paying for animals to be abused. It's really easy. silence_kit posted:I abstractly understand how/why people personally choose to be vegan from an animal welfare point of view. To change your diet to veganism is a pretty big thing if vegans are a minority in your culture, but it isn't like it totally dominates your life and hugely prevents you from doing other things. Following a strict vegan diet does prevent you from experiencing a huge amount of foods from most of the cultures in the world. Food is very important culturally, but it isn't the totality of human experience, so maybe it isn't that big a loss.
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Sep 8, 2022 13:17
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A maybe unsavory truth is that most people who dedicate themselves to a political/social/moral causes beyond posting about them on the internet do it because the issue personally affects them and solving the issue would improve their own status in society. I don’t see how you get that for animal welfare. Also, the mainstream ethical view is that there is a very big jump between animal welfare and the welfare of human beings. I think dedicating your life to animal welfare is almost as absurd as dedicating your life to ending circumcision (well maybe not quite that absurd). The reason why someone might dedicate their lives towards e.g. ending poverty in their local community instead of Subsaharan Africa is because they have greater power/ability to improve the lives of local people than people under the rule of a foreign government. VitalSigns posted:This is why I take a few minutes out of every day to scream at the those horrible people running the animal shelter Most people who volunteer at animal shelters probably mostly do it because they personally really enjoy being around pets. The number of people who do it who don’t really like pets that much and do it purely out of concern for animal welfare is probably close to zero.
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Sep 8, 2022 14:26
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What is their definition of nutrient density? I suspect that they are way over-valuing 'micro-nutrients'. I find it very hard to believe that staple foods like pasta, potatoes, white rice, etc. are bad for the environment, as the rightmost plot kind of suggests. Or that some kinds of animal products are many times better for the environment than staple grains. Staple foods in human diets are staple foods because they are extremely efficient to produce (low $/calorie). This usually correlates with low energy inputs or carbon emissions per food calorie. I wonder what a plot of (GHG Emissions)/(Food Calorie) would look like. Still they should be applauded for focusing on the (nutrient density)/(GHG Emissions) figure of merit, even if I take issue with their definition of nutrient density. A lot of people who are into the left-wing politics of food like to focus on strange, misleading figures of merit to make their points. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) silence_kit fucked around with this message at 12:28 on Oct 1, 2022 |
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Oct 1, 2022 11:58
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I think the main effect is probably that totally plant based diets tend to be less calorie dense, so with these diets it is harder to overeat and become fat. There’s nothing unhealthy about eating animal products. I think focusing on this is misleading. There are many healthy non-vegan, non-vegetarian diets.
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Oct 16, 2022 02:32
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Fozzy The Bear posted:What? Just go to nutionfacts.org, pretty much every scientific study (that isn't funded by meat producers) shows whole plant foods are better for you. You accuse nutritional studies which don't conclude that vegan/vegetarian diets are the best of having ideological bias, and in the same post link to a website and videos from a guy who has an obvious pro-veganism bias . . . of course he is going to interpret/cherry-pick often inconclusive nutritional data/studies in a way to support his favorite diet. silence_kit fucked around with this message at 03:38 on Oct 16, 2022 |
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Oct 16, 2022 03:27
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TychoCelchuuu posted:1. The thread title is "why you should go vegan." I take it you're not a member of a Native American tribe who is making some attempt at recapturing your cultural heritage of hunting and fishing. This might be true, but here is also a possible explanation for trotting out this hypothetical: in internet arguments people like to discuss edge cases because they are more interesting, and allow posters to examine their beliefs. Assuming that most of the posters here were NOT raised in an old cultural tradition of vegetarianism/veganism (no being from Berkeley or Portland doesn't count), and became vegan/vegetarian for left-wing political reasons, the poster is trying to create a moral dilemma for posters in this thread to resolve. TychoCelchuuu posted:4. Think about what you would say about a traditional society doing something you don't approve of for the sake of tradition. For instance, instead of harming non-human animals, imagine this society harms humans. Perhaps they are a cannibal society, or they engage in traditional mutilation of girls, or something like this. In situations like this, it's not obvious that tradition is so important that it trumps harm. Certainly in our own societies, we tend to think that traditions like this ought to be phased out. Perhaps these societies should also phase out their harmful traditions. This is a very common type of left-wing moral dilemma. Do we defend this aspect of a minority culture, even when it contradicts our own beliefs?
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Oct 18, 2022 11:42
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This recent discussion I think demonstrates how important it is to have a consistent figure of merit when talking about the left-wing politics of food. When the figure of merit constantly changes (e.g. in the left-wing politics of food, depending on the subject, food wildly oscillates between being too expensive or too cheap, too readily available or not available enough, food waste is a terrible tragedy or a pretty fundamental consequence of demonizing processed/prepared foods and wanting to make fresh foods readily available everywhere 24/7 in the US) it's confusing to outsiders. It also permits infighting among insiders because there isn't really a solid principle upon which to build the ideology upon, and so there become major differences of opinion. Like in the above tweet. 'Better for the environment' gets used in a pretty slippery way much of the time.
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Dec 11, 2022 11:20
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