Why You Should Go Vegan

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TychoCelchuuu: Jan 2, 2012; This space for Rent.

Howdy everyone. Just stumbled across this thread. I haven't read all 14 pages (in fact I've only read about 3) so apologies if this has come up before, but we have a vegan thread over in Goons With Spoons. Properly speaking I don't think the ethics of veganism has much at all to do with the food - the issue is how we're treating the animals before we eat them, not what goes in anyone's mouth - but since lots of people have trouble thinking about veganism outside the context of a diet, you might find the thread helpful. The OP has lots of links and if you filter the thread just by my posts you can find a ton more recipes.

# ¿ Oct 17, 2022 15:19

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# ¿ May 14, 2024 19:54

TychoCelchuuu: Jan 2, 2012; This space for Rent.

I hesitate a bit to post because I still haven't read through the whole thread, so apologies if this repeats points already raised, but since you're also a first-timer to the thread and you're asking questions unconnected to the current conversation hopefully this isn't a big deal:

rargphlam posted:

What if human predation fulfills a cultural or locational need? How do you convince the Native American tribes that their attempt at recapturing their cultural heritage of hunting and fishing is morally and ethically wrong? How do you handle societies that still require hunting due to not being a component of a globalized supply chain? To the isolated societies that function still as hunter-gatherers (diminishing as they are), what would you say?

There are a few things I think it's helpful to think about here.

1. The thread title is "why you should go vegan." I take it you're not a member of a Native American tribe who is making some attempt at recapturing your cultural heritage of hunting and fishing. When it comes to stuff that we want to do, humans are very good at justifying it to ourselves. This is true even when the justifications are not very good. "Other people ought to be allowed to do it" is not always a good justification for your doing something. If someone who is not earning very much money ought to pay little to no income tax, this doesn't mean rich people ought to pay little to no income tax. So, is your concern really for people in this situation? Or are you using this as an excuse for people in other situations (like, say, yourself) not to go vegan?

2. Again, focusing on people who are differently situated: many of the challenges people in these societies face in terms of being able to live traditionally come from environmental degradation caused in large part by eating animals. Overfishing, overhunting, habitat destruction for the sake of farmland for cattle or cattle feed, habitat destruction from climate change to which animal consumption greatly contributes, and so on: these sorts of things make it difficult for (e.g.) an isolated society to exist. If we care about these kinds of societies, most of us need to go vegan (and do other things as well!) so as to protect their ability to continue to exist.

3. "Tradition" is not a monolith. No society has stayed the same forever, nor is it possible to stay the same forever. Living traditionally doesn't mean never changing anything. Whether the parts of a traditional society that rely on eating animals are crucial to that society's traditions is itself not set in stone. These are topics which must be negotiated by the people that live in these societies. Traditionally for Passover Jews would slaughter a lamb. Most Jews don't do this anymore. Traditionally for Passover Jews would have an animal bone as part of the seder plate. Most Jews still do this. But some Jews don't. They've replaced the animal bone with something else. Societies can change gradually without losing what's valuable about tradition. Potentially this is true of these societies that hunt and fish and so on. Maybe not. But this is not the sort of thing it's easy to know in advance, by fiat. Certainly it makes sense to try to change before deciding nothing can change.

4. Think about what you would say about a traditional society doing something you don't approve of for the sake of tradition. For instance, instead of harming non-human animals, imagine this society harms humans. Perhaps they are a cannibal society, or they engage in traditional mutilation of girls, or something like this. In situations like this, it's not obvious that tradition is so important that it trumps harm. Certainly in our own societies, we tend to think that traditions like this ought to be phased out. Perhaps these societies should also phase out their harmful traditions.

rargphlam posted:

I struggle with coming to full agreement with anyone who proposes high level of veganism because it always makes me feel like that is a modern, intellectual denial of our part in nature that has come about in no small part due to industrialization. We have challenged and disrupted the natural order of ecosystems, but I don't inherently agree that we should remove ourselves entirely from the order. Are humans somehow superior to the animals they hunt or rear for food production? If what differentiates us from the rest of the carnivores and herbivores is that we can recognize ourselves in each, why can't a human choose to be a carnivore? Because of our higher degree of self awareness placing us into a position of greater moral or ethical superiority in relation to our fellow animals?

A few points.

1. There's no such thing as "the natural order of ecosystems." Ecosystems are not static entities that sit around unchanged until humans show up. It's pointless to think there's some kind of order that we are in danger of removing ourselves from.

2. Even granting there's such thing as the natural order of ecosystems, we're loving up those natural orders at pace so rapid it is hard to comprehend. Every day more than 100 species go extinct, many of them due to the impact humans are having on the environment. Among the ways we can begin to mitigate the almost inconceivable damage we do to the world, going vegan is one of the most effective.

3. The animal stuff that people eat (meat, milk, eggs, etc.) by and large does not come from our participation in the "natural order" (again, pretending such a thing exists). It comes from industrial food production.

4. Humans aren't superior to other animals in a sense relevant to whether it is okay to kill and eat them. Some of us are superior in some ways: I'm smarter than any dog I've ever met (although when I was an infant, I was not). But this doesn't give anyone a right to kill and eat anyone else. I'm smarter than any infant I've ever met, but it would be morally objectionable for me to kill and eat infants! And so choosing to be a carnivore is no more licensed by (e.g.) intelligence than any other morally objectionable act.

# ¿ Oct 18, 2022 09:34

TychoCelchuuu: Jan 2, 2012; This space for Rent.

rargphlam posted:

I don't disagree with getting traditions changed (or that even some are wrong or destructive!), but how you go about that is a different matter. I, functionally, have been an atheist my entire life and have certain beliefs around faith and disagreements with human cultures at large, but I still appreciate the arguments and thoughts of individuals who do have faith. I don't necessarily go out of my way to dissuade them of their beliefs because fundamentally I know we are at an impasse on a deep fundamental level. Frankly, I view veganism as being in a similar struggle: how do you convince others (arguably a large portion of living human society) that cannot at fundamental base level agree with a core tenet of your belief?

I'm not an expert on how to persuade people about things. In my own experience, many people are persuaded to accept veganism because they find arguments for it compelling (like the kind in the OP). That's why I became a vegan. I've also heard of people who are persuaded by propaganda, like the film Dominion, which I've never seen but which I've heard is extremely effective. In any case, that seems like an entirely separate issue from "what about traditional ways of life," because unless you're leading one of those traditional ways of life, that point is either irrelevant or it counts in favor of going vegan, because veganism helps keep the environment in the sort of shape it needs to be in to sustain most traditional forms of life.

rargphlam posted:

To be frank I was tired when wording this and I was fretting if I nailed the language. It's less that there's a strict "natural order" but more that we as fellow animals come from a place of having killed to consume and exist in as a part of the cycle of living consumption. Some animals kill other animals to continue to exist, and we have done so for thousands of years. Why does the elevation of our consciousness and intellect push us morally away from sustainably and thoughtfully consuming other animals when many other species do so as well, with far less potential for thought? Is the omnivore who chooses not to eat meat morally superior to the obligate carnivore?

"Why don't we live like animals live" isn't compelling when it comes to, say, dying of preventable illnesses, living outside rather than in buildings, drinking untreated drinking water rather than clean drinking water, harming human beings, and so on. You're reading this on a computer, this despite the fact that lions, tigers, and bears shun computers. If we can have reasons to depart from our fellow animals with respect to these sorts of things, why not also depart from them when it comes to eating animals? (And, by the way, a lot of the animals we eat don't eat other animals. Imagine saying to a cow that because lions eat gazelles, it's fine for us to eat cows! Not very convincing.)

There is much more to say on the topic: for instance, the question " Is the omnivore who chooses not to eat meat morally superior to the obligate carnivore?" is rather misguided, because we don't judge people who lack the capability to exercise morality (e.g. infants) for their behavior, and for the same reasons we don't judge carnivores. If a lion could be an ethical vegan and chose not to, then we could have a beef with the lion. But the lion can't do that: the lion can't even understand the topic, let alone make a choice. Just like it would be ridiculous to get angry at a baby for throwing up on you but perfectly acceptable to get angry at me for throwing up on you, it would be ridiculous to judge a wolf for eating a goat but perfectly acceptable to get angry at me for eating a goat.

# ¿ Oct 18, 2022 16:48

TychoCelchuuu: Jan 2, 2012; This space for Rent.

rargphlam posted:

Stripping it down to a base level, I am trying to to grapple with the morality of the act and why the ability to choose makes it more moral. Morality is a human construct defining the outlines of acceptable society and thought, and if "tradition" can change and alter, why is our conception of morality as definitive? If, hypothetically, presented with the choice of starvation (either by a quirk of genetics or the lack of other resources) or killing another animal to live and survive, is it immoral to kill another animal to survive? If say a lion could choose not to eat meat but ultimately die that may be a selfless act but is it the more moral one? And there are people who grapple with this because of quirks in their biology when processing fats and proteins! Does the morality of taking a sentient life to live ever exist as a necessity or is always an undue harm on other life forms?

The idea that morality is a human construct defining the outlines of acceptable society and thought is very controversial - many disagree with it (see here for some discussion). Even if we grant that premise, though, notice that your points are only relevant when it comes to life and death situations. Again, the title of the thread is "why you should go vegan," and I'm pretty sure you won't die if you go vegan. I haven't died, at least.

(If you're really hung up on the issue, though, there's a relatively easy solution. Just imagine someone who will die if they don't eat humans. Whatever you say about the morality of that situation will more or less answer the question for the hypothetical morally sophisticated lion.)

# ¿ Oct 19, 2022 02:46

TychoCelchuuu: Jan 2, 2012; This space for Rent.

You might be interested in this discussion of the topic.

# ¿ Nov 20, 2023 08:35

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# ¿ May 14, 2024 19:54

TychoCelchuuu: Jan 2, 2012; This space for Rent.

VideoGameVet posted:

Avocados were going extinct before people started eating them

https://www.avoseedo.com/how-the-avocado-almost-went-extinct/

Unfortunately, once the megaherbivores died off, avocados lost their main source of distribution. The remaining herbivores did not have large enough digestive tracts to consume and excrete the avocado pit, and dropping seeds at your own roots isn�t a very good survival strategy. At this point, avocados should have gone extinct. Why didn�t they?

....

Avocado trees owe their continued existence to their unusually long lifespan and hungry humans. Central Mexico has avocado trees as old as 400 years of age. Because avocados live so much longer than other fruit trees, they were able to survive until another consumer, this time hungry humans, came along.

The earliest humans in Central and South America quickly came to appreciate the avocado: in particular, the Olmecs and the Mayans. These groups started the first avocado orchards, picking the hardiest and best-tasting avocados to cultivate. Thus the avocado�s journey to worldwide cultivation and consumption began, saving them from a time when the avocado almost went extinct.

This kind of argument with respect to animals is known as "the logic of the larder" and it is taken by many (myself included) to be very unconvincing (and I find it equally unconvincing in the context of plants). For some discussion see:

https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/abs/duty-and-the-beast/logic-of-the-larder/58B2C0EE30721567EF1DA108340D84CC

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10806-005-1805-x

http://www.animal-rights-library.com/texts-c/salt02.htm

https://philarchive.org/rec/JOHCAN

# ¿ Dec 20, 2023 06:27

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