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XboxPants posted:Does the chicken care that she's imprisoned? Well... did you need a fence? (genuine question, I don't know much about chicken farming so for all I know it's possible to raise chickens and they "come back to roost" at the end of the day without any prodding) The trade-off between more and less confinement, at hobby farm scale, is the safety of the animal itself. Losses to predation are common. Again at hobby farm scale, it is often practical to go without a fence, while you are supervising the chickens and re-confining them (again, as shelter from predators) when you leave or at night. Many animals are thrilled to hang out around a reliable source of food. Separately from that, I have a question for the thread. Do you consider it ethical to hunt and eat venison, making optimistic assumptions about the hunt? Some optimistic assumptions to keep in mind: - the natural apex predators of that habitat were long ago removed, and reintroduction has not yet succeeded - the relevant wildlife management authority agrees a hunt is necessary for population management purposes (let's talk about why this happens!) - the hunter fully complied with the law (only hunted authorized deer, stuck to their quota, reported kills, etc) - the kill was humane, in the sense of causing almost immediate unconsciousness. the hunter abstained from unreliable shots. - the body of the deer was used without undue waste I abstain from meat, but I do not lead a vegan lifestyle. I think that I would be willing to eat venison hunted by someone I know and trust to hunt as I have described. Hunting like this does not exploit animals in the way that mass animal husbandry does.
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Oct 17, 2022 09:40
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DrBox posted:Can I ask why you abstain from meat, but do not lead a vegan lifestyle? Is it the label you disagree with, or do you buy and use other animal products? If you draw the line at only meat but still use other products do you see a inconsistency there? I do buy and use animal products, though I make some case by case abstentions: I've gone on and off of abstention from eggs, for instance. My objection is not to the categorical act of animal exploitation as defined by the vegan movement, but to the ethical and environmental catastrophe of concentrated animal feeding operations. Due to my parents' careers, I was made aware of this impact pretty early, and also saw the contrast between low-density and high-density animal operations. I was simply unable to eat meat any longer, and have kept the abstention into adulthood. There is inconsistency. Using leather economically supports the (bad and abusive) meat industry. However, it is not meat that is unethical, but the current meat industry. Maybe more keenly felt, using animal byproducts related to their reproductive cycle ensures a stream of excess males who, at best, will be castrated and raised for meat: the alternatives include immediately killing and disposing of the newborn animal (famously what happens to male chicks, because caponization is so impractical, and dairy bull calves when neither raising as steer or veal is economically indicated) and raising for veal (famously not a good experience for the bull calf).
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Oct 17, 2022 18:02
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DrBox posted:I appreciate the candid reply. With the ethical problem in your view being the treatment and not the exploitation itself, do you hold this view for all animals? Are there any animals you would not be ok with raising and killing for meat and leather even if done in a small scale gentler way? Please excuse my reply being framed a bit differently than how you asked. I am a mammal chauvinist, and a chauvinist for smart mammals in particular. It matters that pigs are much brighter than cows, and that's why it tears me up (for instance) that we the human race have a moral obligation to genocide the invasive feral hogs of middle america. So, yeah I am not ok with eating cats and dogs, notoriously bright and social animals. I could see myself catching and cooking fish no problem. I could see myself raising a small group of dairy cows and eating or selling the resulting meat. I would probably not raise chickens, mostly because I'd feel like I should caponize male chicks and that is notoriously difficult with a high death rate. I would only eat pork if I or someone I trusted had hunted it as feral pork in a manner conducive to extermination (trapping a whole sounder and taking them to be processed).
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Oct 17, 2022 19:07
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DrBox posted:There is interesting literature on the intelligence and social order among cow herds. Regardless of where these animals fall on the intelligence spectrum, however you choose to define that, we know that they are capable of complex thoughts and emotions such as happiness, jealousy etc and they all have the capacity to suffer or experience well-being. It's a very useful proxy for ability to comprehend what's going on before they are slaughtered, or to perceive that they are restrained.
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Oct 17, 2022 19:45
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DrBox posted:That's a good clarification. Do I have it right that intelligence only matters as far as the animal's ability to recognize and take issue with the conditions they are in? Probably not, because I am emotionally attached to dogs and cats.
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Oct 17, 2022 19:56
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DrBox posted:I have met some smart dogs and some incredibly dumb dogs. I love them all, but that is due to exposure to them and being able to empathize with them. I would argue the same ability to form connections and become emotionally attached is possible for nearly all animals. Yeah I hold a double standard. I do not approve of eating the kinds of animals I like.
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Oct 17, 2022 20:12
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DrBox posted:Treating some animals like family and others like resources to be exploited only because of cultural norms or how I personally feel about a species does not seem like a tennable moral position and I hope you give it some more thought. Until then I think we have hit a bedrock disagreement. likewise brother.
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Oct 17, 2022 20:41
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It is not productive to constrain the topic of this thread to 'follow a vegan lifestyle y/n?". In my view, related topics should be welcome - for instance, I really enjoy discussion that has happened on the ethics of particular forms of hunting.
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Oct 18, 2022 21:28
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There's a lovely argument developed by Leo Tolstoy in his essay The First Step, which makes a self-centered argument for abstention from meat which does not rely on elevating the rights of animals to be like those of humans. In brief and imperfect summary, the idea is that to consume meat, and especially to participate in the act of processing animals, is to erode your own conscience in a way that harms you in all other aspects of your life. I would recommend reading the essay, and the other nonfiction (even some fiction) from Tolstoy, if you have any interest in how animal rights intersects with pacifism, Christianity, or the development of a strong sense of conscience that Tolstoy advocates as part of his religious practice. It was a milestone on my coming to feel like the Christian ethic was in accord with my own conscience. Here's one source for it: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Complete_Works_of_Lyof_N._Tolsto%C3%AF/The_First_Step To bring this to bear on the topic at hand, my conscience tells me not to tread on a daffodil, because someone else might want to see it, and because that daffodil might one day bring forth new daffodils. I wouldn't want to tread on a pretty rock either, if there's a reasonable alternative - and I especially wouldn't want to take a pretty rock out of its natural environment by the side of a trail. These are subject to other, higher priorities, but I think it's just fine to consult your conscience for things like this. I also don't particularly advocate for laws to be made based on my conscience.
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Oct 21, 2022 21:03
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DrBox posted:Small point of clarification. Very few vegans are arguing for the same level of rights. Only the level of rights required to allow animals to be free of exploitation and intentional harm by humans. I picked the phrase 'to be like' purposely: I am not depicting the vegan position is one of the same rights, but one of meaningfully similar rights.
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Oct 21, 2022 21:40
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World Famous W posted:since the thread has revived and i just noticed it, i would like to ask for opinions s on something ive pondered for a minute. ive mostly given up buying meat because of environmental reasons (animal ethics and rights are not a huge concern of mine). however, i help at a foodbank at least once a week and bring home meat from it. it amounts for most the meat in my diet. Here are two problems that would confront me if I were in this situation. First, as I mentioned upthread, the act of abstention from meat can be beneficial on a spiritual level. You should consider whether the act of consuming ethically-sourced meat presents a problem for your conscience. The effect of your actions on yourself matters, ethically. Second, a theoretical food bank volunteer might take home meat from the food bank, leave an emptier meat shelf, and induce another user of the food bank to access the ordinary market for meat. Of course, this is a practical consideration, and an ethics-minded volunteer might only take meat that is seconds from the literal garbage. I abstain from meat, and I would most likely continue to abstain from meat in your shoes. But I don't see a big ethical problem with your actions.
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Nov 20, 2023 09:01
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