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I still don't see any reason not to ethically raise hens for eggs. They can eat scraps. But overall you've presented some very good arguments supporting serious reduction of consumption.
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Aug 30, 2022 19:12
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Enjoy posted:Do you vote? Why would this be relevant?
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Aug 31, 2022 03:41
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Going full vegan still seems unnecessarily extreme. We'd probably get optimal* results pushing people to poultry over red meat. *In terms of total benefit. more people doing a little vs one guy doing a lot and diminishing returns as you eliminate various animal products. I think we'll also get more effective** results pushing to vote away factory farms than by trying to undermine them economically one spender at a time. Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 13:14 on Aug 31, 2022 |
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Aug 31, 2022 13:11
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Well, the official thread goal is to make people stop eating meat and that's how you get it done. Expensive and scarce.
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Aug 31, 2022 13:21
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Do you not perceive any room at all between subsistence farming and our currently massively abusive and unsustainable factory farming system?
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Aug 31, 2022 14:06
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Please argue with things people actually post and not your rough sense what they will do politically based on the fact that you read someone complain on the internet about something once I actually agree with you that any of this is unlikely until it is mandated by disaster but that's why I shifted to talking about relative impact and achievability
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Aug 31, 2022 14:36
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There are many nice veggie and rice Frozen packets that make it perfectly good meal without meat. Trader Joe's sells one.
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Sep 5, 2022 18:26
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DrBox posted:Doing something wrong a little better is still wrong. It would be more morally consistent to stop. Even in idyllic conditions and even if the suffering is removed, breeding and killing animals at a fraction of their lifespan for a sandwich is still harm. This seems to be a fundamental disagreement on what harm means.
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Sep 8, 2022 02:04
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There are many painless deaths that I would say are harmless for animals but harmful to unwilling humans.
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Sep 8, 2022 02:59
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I agree that a cow can suffer. I don't know that I agree that it has "interests" the way people do. Things get very squirrely when you start really digging into these kinds of "harms" and the moral action you demand of people, because there's so much human suffering too. Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 03:42 on Sep 8, 2022 |
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Sep 8, 2022 03:40
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Content to Hover posted:Not sure if you understand how factory farming works, but "providing them food and shelter and a field to roam around in" isn't representative of their lived experience. Capitalism isn't overly motivated to change that any time soon. Everyone knows what factory farms are and agrees that they are terrible. This is a question of the "morality" of kinder farming practices and whether it's "moral" to do them instead of just letting the animals all brutalize one another.
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Sep 8, 2022 21:50
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Why is it more okay for animals to suffer and kill one another in that forest than it is for us to have some nice farms for a couple of well treated cows?
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Sep 8, 2022 21:56
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XboxPants posted:Alright, I disagree but for the moment I'll return to your other response, then. You are using "personally" incorrectly to describe the harm caused by me buying a big hunk of meat off a well treated animal.
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Sep 8, 2022 22:11
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Content to Hover posted:I tried to look up the percentage of animals that are factory farmed in the US, lots of animal welfare sites suggest it is 99%. I assume that this is a numbers game and chickens make the reality a bit more complex. Yeah we all agree with you about this why are you beating this dead horse? Me going vegan personally or not has no bearing on changing that reality
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Sep 8, 2022 22:17
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VitalSigns posted:The argument that because animals kill each other then it's okay for us to kill them is a bit odd. Humans kill each other does that make it okay to shoot up a school because those kids might get murdered by someone else someday anyway? Obviously not. I think when, why, and how you kill them are all relevant when trying to assess the morality of an act and that the comparison to school shootings is absurd. Preferring ethical meat to veganism does not make someone a potential Pet Shop Shooter. But I agree with the latter part, even if I can't define it. We are God. quote:If your premise is that you don't care about animal welfare, I don't think this was anyone's premise. Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 22:39 on Sep 8, 2022 |
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Sep 8, 2022 22:34
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Seph posted:
No one said that. But if you want to effect mass change the slow way, I bet people are generally more open to "Nice Farms" than veganism. We're gonna need a lot of animal products to make it through the apocalypse.
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Sep 8, 2022 22:43
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Yes. Pay for cows you know the name of and can take treats.
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Sep 8, 2022 22:46
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DrBox posted:Which is not an argument for breeding more cats. I don't think they need our help. Should we be spaying ferals?
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Sep 8, 2022 23:23
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Raising alpacas for wool seems perfectly ethical if you are nice to your alpacas. That's another particular where I would agree with calling veganism absolutist.
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Sep 8, 2022 23:33
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DrBox posted:Yes but that is not the point I was making. I was arguing against the idea that breeding them and giving them a good life or letting them roam free are the only two choices. I don't think anyone ever made such an argument, just provided some comparisons. You can add more
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Sep 9, 2022 00:31
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DrBox posted:. There's also no cows as an option So all the cows going extinct is moral in a way that humanely killing one is not? It seems inconsistent, I'm still teasing out how. Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 01:06 on Sep 9, 2022 |
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Sep 9, 2022 01:03
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I guess to me the idea that killing an individual animal is morally harmful to a human naturally suggests that driving non-human species to extinction is similarly harmful to our species at scale. And these things don't tend to die out naturally so it's either going to be feral cows or human interference which veganism suggests is unjustified. Really glossed over the answer to that question. How do you begin to justify neutering and spaying feral cats under veganism?
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Sep 9, 2022 01:21
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DrBox posted:This is why I'm not a utilitarian. This thinking leads to some really messed up scenarios and without a good foundation there's no reason it stops at animals. This is very rude, we've already established that we think humans are special.
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Sep 9, 2022 01:47
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Because nature isn't a separate thing from us and what we do. I think using "Exploit" is pretty loaded and it sounds a lot less bad if you use the dictionary definition, which is "benefit from" No moral reason we can't benefit from animals while being kind. The animal benefits too
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Sep 9, 2022 03:59
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DrBox posted:You are advocating we Impregnate a cow, steal away her calf, milk her until she is no longer productive then kill her.....kindly so that you can have milk in your coffee. Quote me advocating this Making up positions no one took is bad form and you just can't help yourself You arent an absolutist but if we disagree with you we support experimentation on puppies Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 04:45 on Sep 9, 2022 |
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Sep 9, 2022 04:39
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Oh look, a vegan is asking is to address factory farming. Again DrBox posted:So what exactly are you advocating for in clear terms? And do you think anything you're advocating for is likely to happen as long as animals are still seen as commodities or resources to exploit? I've been quite clear on what I advocate, and that I think it's more likely to get everyone supporting kind practices than Veganism, though both are relatively close to nil. Veganism seems to be about claiming an easy moral high ground by washing your hands of a sticky issue entirely, rather than actually doing good by animals. Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 13:31 on Sep 9, 2022 |
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Sep 9, 2022 13:29
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Enjoy posted:The sticky situation of paying for animal abuse It's good when you make it clear that you aren't engaging in good faith at all. Thanks. Sorry you can't come up with any solutions besides never thinking about animals again. Maybe you wouldn't be vegan if you didnt have a low key beastiality fetish.
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Sep 9, 2022 13:40
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Sure we did. It's a good OP and I agree with a lot of it, just not every premise of morality or the conclusion. But on the other hand, I've made lots of posts here where the substantive point was disregarded so you could call me a puppy experimenter.  I think actual animal welfare is more important than perceived individual moral harms.
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Sep 9, 2022 14:10
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DrBox posted:You say you do not support factory farming but there is no way for the world to continue to eat meat as you do without it I think there is a morally acceptable point that is not veganism, not that things should remain unchanged, and I reject the premise that individuals becoming vegan is the only way to enact needed change. And we probably do need some of these products because we certainly can't keep using plastic for everything.
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Sep 9, 2022 15:06
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It's been well established that we disagree on the morality of "giving a sheep a haircut from time to time" so I don't find the consistency argument at all persuasive. "Lol" at silkworm feelings entirely.
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Sep 9, 2022 15:23
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It depends entirely on where he gets the steak from. Opposed is a strong word for it. I disagree with the moral absolutism even though I agree with the critique of modern agriculture as is.
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Sep 9, 2022 15:30
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VitalSigns posted:I'm not vegan but this dismissal of their ethical position is unfair imo. They raise good arguments that I think deserve more serious consideration than an accusation of virtue signaling. Not virtue signaling. I can't find any other way to square it with the "it's ok to spay feral cats" or "who cares about species going extinct". It's moral reductionism.
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Sep 9, 2022 15:37
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distortion park posted:* The marginal but of beef production isn't some artisanal farm which claims to have "high" animal welfare standards, it's somewhere in Brazil I thought this was a thread about individual choices not the marginal thing. If we want to talk about changing the marginal thing, we go back to whether it's gonna be easier to get people as a whole on board with veganism or being nicer to cows, and I think it's the latter. Mostly I support switching over to turkey. Eat all the dinosaurs. But there are other ways to remediate the negative impacts of beef besides full veganism.
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Sep 9, 2022 15:41
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Harold Fjord posted:Not virtue signaling. This might also be the wrong word. But virtue signalling means they don't care. I think they do. I think animal welfare is fraught and complicated and veganism is an easy answer. But that doesn't make it the most correct or moral.
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Sep 9, 2022 15:44
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Start a thread on those and find out. Edit, to be less flip, there are probably practices I don't support, but I don't think "loving around with a bull" is some great moral wrong
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Sep 9, 2022 15:48
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Kalit posted:I think most of the US would highly disagree with this. If it was, most people would be vegan by this point. I think most of the US doesn't give a poo poo but maybe you have some evidence otherwise
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Sep 9, 2022 15:52
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VitalSigns posted:Imo if you want to debate with vegans and change their mind you should treat their objections with the same seriousness that (non-rear end in a top hat) people afford to those with religiously proscribed diets. I don't think anyone here is trying to persuade the vegans not to be. We're just discussing points of agreement and disagreement.
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Sep 9, 2022 16:16
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DrBox posted:Bull fighting and rodeos is just "loving around with a bull"? You are so set on not acknowledging the harm done to these animals for entertainment. Steak falls into the category of entertainment too. This is exactly what I'm talking about and the exact kind of bad faith I'm sick of. Thanks for demonstrating it so aptly. loving with animals does not have to involve stabbing them and I don't support stabbing them, but since I'm not a vegan the vegans posting find every horrible thing done to animals that has ever happened and lay it at my feet. Go gently caress yourself
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Sep 9, 2022 16:19
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I explicitly did not. In fact, I outright indicated I disagree with some practices. You shithead (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 9, 2022 16:28
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Vegans are just lazy thinkers.
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Sep 9, 2022 16:30
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