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Kurzon posted:I am basing off that YouTube video. Try reading the book if you want to discuss the book. If you want to discuss political theory, drop the pretense of the text, because you look like a dipshit.
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Feb 10, 2023 18:13
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Kurzon posted:I am basing off that YouTube video. Read the book. Comprehend the book. Post about the book. R>C>P Best possible advice.
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Feb 10, 2023 18:20
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Kurzon posted:I am basing off that YouTube video. It's not discipline- it's sacrifice. That is his entire point. Franchise is earned through service so that it has value to the person and society practicing. It demonstrates that the individual was willing to risk themselves to play a role in the body politic, in theory making them more engaged. That by forfeiting years of their life, they get the authority and responsibility to vote. It shows the individual places the group above themselves. You would know this because 1/3 of the book is set in a High School classroom breaking this poo poo down. I'll buy you a copy if you will read it and quit this dumb poo poo af arguing points not made in the book that you got from someone on YT, because your discussion is going nowhere because you came in under a massive cloud of ignorance on the text you want to debate.
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Feb 10, 2023 18:51
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McNally posted:Pretty ballsy to try to argue these points when you haven’t even read the book. I would like to point out that there is some subtext in this post, something the book, that the OP has not read, is full of. Though personally as a perpetually horny vet I'm more fond of the first half of Stranger in a Strange Land. Do word magic with your mind and hump everyone who's willing.
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Feb 10, 2023 20:21
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bulletsponge13 posted:It's not discipline- it's sacrifice. That is his entire point. Franchise is earned through service so that it has value to the person and society practicing. It demonstrates that the individual was willing to risk themselves to play a role in the body politic, in theory making them more engaged. That by forfeiting years of their life, they get the authority and responsibility to vote. It shows the individual places the group above themselves. ... and to build off of this, this is also (one reason) why the book is fundamentally flawed - leaving aside the veteran issue, the basic idea that it's appropriate to have bar to clear in order to participate fully in democracy or community governance is ignorant and abhorrent. It suggests that it's okay for some set of people to be subject to the power of the state without recourse to changing that because they didn't "earn" the right. Leaving aside the political theory debate around why that's inappropriate, practically that's the creation of a second class of citizen that will inevitably result in violent exploitation.
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Feb 10, 2023 20:38
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Kurzon posted:I am basing off that YouTube video. Lurk more. And since you’ll have more time on your hands read the book instead of depending on someone else’s opinion for forming your own.
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Feb 10, 2023 21:38
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Book had power armor, movie didn’t. Just saying. Also the book made it clear that while service guaranteed citizenship, you didn’t have to do military service - the government had to provide you with an opportunity to serve somehow, even if you were disabled or whatever. It’s an interesting book, even if the premise is pretty dystopian and I don’t agree with the perspective of the author, but it’s a completely different work from the movie, which is much more satirical.
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Feb 10, 2023 21:41
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Melthir posted:I still think you guys are missing the biggest joke in the book. The protagonist was to loving stupid to do anything else but infantry. Hey now. Infantry are not the dumbest MOS. That's cooks and truck drivers.
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Feb 10, 2023 21:54
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Here's my thing- as presented in the vaguely utopian sense, I like the system. I like the idea that someone has to give service to the country- whether it be teaching, medical/fire, military, whatever- to understand the gravity of the responsibility. But it falls a part outside of fiction. While Heinlein clarifies in later work that Citizenship offers no difference to the day to day workings of the society beyond the right to vote (Citizens get no extra legal rights in court proceedings, etc), and access to specific niche jobs, like History and Moral Philosphy Instructor- a position that must be held by a Veteran, in real life, it would quickly devolve into something more akin to Apartheid. It's also implied that the rich DON'T serve, which would bring an interesting dichotomy into the society. I read the book as presented, and that idealized presentation makes sense to me, because it's a system I would honor. I like it because it fits with my character, but I know it's not a functional system. I also disagree with the premise that the system as presented in the text is fascism; too much of the political system is absent from the book to form that conclusion. Militaristic? Absolutely, because it's a criticism of the military in a boy's adventure story. Because of that presentation, we haven't any idea how the government works beyond a Limited Representative Democracy. It doesn't represent a military junta, because A) the military doesn't rule. B) active service are forbid from voting. C) Veteran =/= Military.
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Feb 10, 2023 21:59
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lol jesus christ.
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Feb 10, 2023 22:57
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Kurzon posted:I am basing off that YouTube video. I'm glad you reengaged with the community here. I applaud you for that. However, it would have helped to read the book so that you could form your impressions. Doing the youtube approach gives you someone else's analysis. And yeah, political science involves reading someone else's articles and someone else's thoughts, but eventually, you must pick up a primary source or check it out for yourself. Because it appears many of us have read it and had some thoughts. An academic setting would at least make you read chapters from it, if not the whole thing. Even if you didn't want to do that, going on scholar.google.com and searching "Starship Troopers Heinlein" and going on sci-hub.ru to grab any paywalled sources would have served your purposes better. To facilitate that, here are the free versions of the text. text only: https://archive.org/stream/StarshipTroopersRobertHeinlein/Starship_Troopers_-_Robert_Heinlein_djvu.txt someones own hot take on the cover: https://archive.org/details/StarshipTroopersRobertHeinlein ps, someone tell me who the gently caress it is on the archive.org cover of the book. Edit: I checked out those youtube links, and I don't think 16m worth of Extra History's youtube content is enough of a basis to roll in "hot." It's enough to ask some questions. poo poo, you coulda rolled in with the "hey, I haven't read it, but these videos have piqued my curiosity. This dude is saying this, that, and the third. And based on my knowledge of political science and selectorate theory in particular, I think this will happen. What do you think?" And while you would have gotten the "go read the loving book" series of responses, for sure without fail, I think that would have been a better way to approach it. I think there's still room for the politically minded chat you wanna have here, but you're gonna need to go inhale a book real quick and come back. Otherwise, intellectually speaking, you're just swinging for the fences and missing. Hope this helped. TheWeedNumber fucked around with this message at 00:12 on Feb 11, 2023 |
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Feb 11, 2023 00:07
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Also, for the record, I just slid into those DMs because I was really curious why they just came and went. So I asked, and we had the chat, and now we're here I guess. 
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Feb 11, 2023 00:07
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I loving love the book. I'm all about discussing it; but I want to discuss it, not a YT takedown. I want OP to come back after they read it- I wasn't kidding when I said I'd buy them a copy. I buy a copy a year to give away.
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Feb 11, 2023 00:29
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CainFortea posted:Hey now. Infantry are not the dumbest MOS. cooks and truck drivers don't have to do combat arms downtime bullshit. Who are the dumbest MOSes again?
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Feb 11, 2023 01:43
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Petroleum Specialist and Laundry Specialist both accepted lower ASVABs than the Infantry when I joined
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Feb 11, 2023 01:48
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bulletsponge13 posted:I loving love the book. I'm all about discussing it; but I want to discuss it, not a YT takedown. I like the part a lot of people miss where a lot of it is Heinlien going "John Birch Society People are loving insane and the society they want is bad" considering how the war actually starts in the book, with a missionairy getting told to gently caress off and die by the bugs.
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Feb 11, 2023 12:29
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I'm no scholar, but I have read enough Heinlein to know that he wasn't a dogmatic idealogue, yet critiques of his work seem to make that assumption way too often. He seems like one of the most popular authors to strawman.
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Feb 11, 2023 12:57
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A.o.D. posted:I'm no scholar, but I have read enough Heinlein to know that he wasn't a dogmatic idealogue, yet critiques of his work seem to make that assumption way too often. He seems like one of the most popular authors to strawman. Partially it’s the old issue about how there’s no such thing as an anti-war movie - even really blatant piss takes on fascism like the older 40k stuff gets seen from the pov of “wow, cool explosions!” Given the rest of Heinlein’s work, I’m not personally convinced it’s quite as anti-fascist as things like the movie version is, but I think that he did approach the idea with some nuance. It just doesn’t matter when a 15 year old proto-libertarian reads it, they’ll miss all the critique in it. So the net result is that the book is effectively pro-fascist in its impact.
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Feb 11, 2023 16:32
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Death of the author is a thing too.
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Feb 11, 2023 16:39
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I've also heard the theory that Starship Troopers was also his way of handling his personal guilt about not serving in combat/WW2, and never getting to really do his service.
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Feb 11, 2023 16:51
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FrozenVent posted:Death of the author is a thing too. more like murder the author.
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Feb 11, 2023 18:26
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A.o.D. posted:I'm no scholar, but I have read enough Heinlein to know that he wasn't a dogmatic idealogue, yet critiques of his work seem to make that assumption way too often. He seems like one of the most popular authors to strawman. I think he really believed what he wrote in Starship Troopers just based upon this book Take Back Your Government that I have sitting on my hate read shelf. Keep in mind I've not yet read that book or Starship Troopers so I'm not making any solid statements on either but putting out another data point as to his underlying ideology. E: The Amazon sales pitch opening line well establishes who Take Back Your Government appeals to. Amazon posted:Before the Tea Party, the Coffee Party, the "Occupy" movement, Ross Perot or even the Libertarian Party, there was Robert Heinlein, a prophetic mastermind, calling to the people to organize in a grassroots movement to take back their government and to find an effective voice for their individual selves. E. Revenant fucked around with this message at 20:56 on Feb 11, 2023 |
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Feb 11, 2023 20:45
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E. Revenant posted:I think he really believed what he wrote in Starship Troopers just based upon this book Take Back Your Government that I have sitting on my hate read shelf. Much of the material in his Expanded Universe collection of stories and essays gave me the same impression.
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Feb 11, 2023 20:52
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E. Revenant posted:I think he really believed what he wrote in Starship Troopers just based upon this book Take Back Your Government that I have sitting on my hate read shelf. First, a question about your image. Is there a rocket pod just off frame? Second, I don't see how ANYONE who was an Upton Sinclair supporter could be considered anywhere within shouting distance of right wing, but politics are strange.
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Feb 11, 2023 21:29
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Hey, OP, I'm going to ask that you actually participate in this thread instead of just dropping by with "hey I saw this video about a book I didn't read" which I view as a drive-by shitpost.
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Feb 11, 2023 21:34
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A.o.D. posted:First, a question about your image. Is there a rocket pod just off frame? First, Yeah It's an old sketch I did of the DooM II revenant that I cropped because I like how the sort of rictus grin came out but nothing else of it was any good. Second, 1930's California politics is such a weird and long ago time that I'm not sure anybody from then can be slotted cleanly into the modern parties. California politics is, after all, the birth place of Gun Control AND Reaganism. Perusing Take Back Your Government and it seems to be very Libertarian but there's odd diatribes sprinkled in like in a chapter on Women in Politics "They have also brought political corruption to a new low. [...] A great many woman are willing to go to hell in a wheel barrow". He thinks because women earn less that they can be bought out for cheaper and are not to be trusted. A particular warning which is probably from personal experience is that a woman will work for your campaign but spy on you for the opposition so don't trust them with anything of importance. E. Revenant fucked around with this message at 22:30 on Feb 11, 2023 |
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Feb 11, 2023 22:24
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CainFortea posted:Hey now. Infantry are not the dumbest MOS. ....they got the same benefits and learned a skill that at least has the ability to get hired in the civilian sector.
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Feb 11, 2023 22:31
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Melthir posted:....they got the same benefits and learned a skill that at least has the ability to get hired in the civilian sector. I almost got a job in the civilian sector, but I would punch that WalMart Manager if he got in my face.
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Feb 11, 2023 22:34
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McNally posted:Hey, OP, I'm going to ask that you actually participate in this thread instead of just dropping by with "hey I saw this video about a book I didn't read" which I view as a drive-by shitpost. Think you need to dm him. I got my answer and I ain’t their daddy. So if you wanna keep em roped in, so to speak, you need to do the poking.
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Feb 11, 2023 22:48
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E. Revenant posted:First, Yeah It's an old sketch I did of the DooM II revenant that I cropped because I like how the sort of rictus grin came out but nothing else of it was any good. Gun control and reaganism are not opposed to each other.
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Feb 11, 2023 23:14
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Personally I always viewed Starship Troopers as sort of an informal "devil's advocate" trilogy along with Beyond this Horizon and The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. Looking at the publishing dates on wikipedia I was way off on this, but it is an interesting way to be wrong. Beyond this Horizon is a 1948 book depicting a post WWIII society built around "artificially selected" people and the code duello. You know how Gattaca is about how the ability of rich people to ensure their kids are better on a genetic level is bad? This has the opposite perspective. Wikipedia attributes the quote, "an armed society is a polite society," to this book. And the context that dueling is good for eliminating the weak and foolish. After the main plot is over a stunning discovery is made, proof of reincarnation. Starship Troopers is a 1959 book depicting a society where "service guarantees citizenship" through the eyes of somebody who has decided to serve in the mobile infantry. Strapping on power armor and crawling around bug tunnels is what the main character is all about. Mention is made of how the war is really decided by the Nova Bomb. A new discovery that can destroy planets, casting doubt on what the non-warcrime future of mobile infantry is. The Moon is a Harsh Mistress is a 1966 book depicting a lunar society that hasn't moved past its history as a penal colony. Day to day life is very libertarian, in all the senses that means online. The code duello is on its way out. The main plot is about overthrowing the governor/warden with the assistance of the colony's sentient computer. This computer is central to the revolution, and to the resulting government. After the main plot is over the computer loses their sentience, casting doubt on the future of the lunar nation.
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Feb 11, 2023 23:27
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A.o.D. posted:Gun control and reaganism are not opposed to each other. I'm aware of that. Both had the same starting point but have since completely split off into separate parties after starting in the same one. It was an example of how old politics doesn't have the same dividing lines as today. Heinlein could get away with being a misogynist in either party in 1930-40 but today he'd only be welcomed into one.
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Feb 11, 2023 23:41
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He quite literally wrote Starship Troopers after reading about people wanting to do nuclear disarmament and wanted to respond with a book that illustrates how stupid those people are.
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Feb 12, 2023 00:17
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Dug out my copy just in case it's needed for book club.
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Feb 12, 2023 01:32
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bulletsponge13 posted:I almost got a job in the civilian sector, but I would punch that WalMart Manager if he got in my face. This is poetry. I appreciated this post more than any other post in GiP this week, and it’s Monday night.
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Feb 14, 2023 06:15
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bulletsponge13 posted:I loving love the book. I'm all about discussing it; but I want to discuss it, not a YT takedown. I can get my own electronic copy easily enough, thanks. I think Heinlein's idea that service makes you wiser somehow would be better if applied to leaders, not voters. Selectorate theory tells me that it is bad to disenfranchise people for any reason, whether it be lack of military service or poor education. Leaders are another matter. I in fact think people should be barred from running in elections if they lack education or have a criminal history. If only veterans can serve as leaders, that's OK because as long as they must depend on a broad support base to stay in office, they are incentivized to deliver good public policy. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Kurzon fucked around with this message at 14:53 on Feb 14, 2023 |
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Feb 14, 2023 14:34
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Kurzon posted:I can get my own electronic copy easily enough, thanks. He literally says service doesn't make you wiser in the book. It's a major point of one of the H&MP class lectures, and is reinforced in other sections- like when Rico attends Officer Training. Define education and criminal history for political office, because both can be bought without earning it. Bernie Sanders has a criminal history related to his Civil Rights work- does that mean he is barred? What about Juvenile crimes? I can buy a degree online; I can get a music theory degree from Liberty University; what about my Certificate in Cryptozoology from the Center of Excellence? I'm not being a dick, I want to understand. Since you won't talk about the thread topic you started- the contents of the book- I'll entertain the rest of this. And having served, if anyone was an Officer, they should be barred from public office.
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Feb 14, 2023 15:40
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Kurzon posted:I can get my own electronic copy easily enough, thanks. Yo you should try reading the book that you're talking about.
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Feb 14, 2023 16:48
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bulletsponge13 posted:He literally says service doesn't make you wiser in the book. It's a major point of one of the H&MP class lectures, and is reinforced in other sections- like when Rico attends Officer Training. But what about JFK?
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Feb 14, 2023 17:05
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Kurzon posted:I can get my own electronic copy easily enough, thanks. Please link me the academic articles you have read on the book in lieu of reading the book that you are clearly referencing. After all, not verifying the details about something you speak of is bad political science and you aren’t gonna do me like that, right? Thank you.
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Feb 14, 2023 17:07
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