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Sentinel posted:Woah is this the first ever GIP mod challenge? Possibly but I’ll tell you what, if OP won’t do it, I’ll do it. I’ll reread starship troopers, dictator’s handbook, and take it from there.
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Feb 15, 2023 17:21
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I have a very narrow view- I served solely in war time, mostly in theater, where a bad Officer doesn't make your life miserable, they get you maimed and killed. In OIF 1, I did a ton of Personal Security Detail missions. I hadn't attended official training, but read what I could, and had some working knowledge from being a weirdo war kid. These guys actually had training on how to do the job, and routinely did dumb poo poo that was super frustrating. Throughout my career, I had more interactions with Major and above than CPT and below, which is pretty unusual for a low ranking Grunt. I had too many experiences where the Officers lacked such basic awareness that happened. I'm talking very Day 1 Hour 1 soldier skills- things like don't drive loops around the same road for four hours, skip Pre Combat Checks/Pre Combat Inspections, poo poo like that. If you've seen the show Generation Kill, imagine the "Even a boot loving Marine knows danger close" repeated regularly. An Officer good at Army'ing is good at Army; that doesn't make them a qualified leader, tactically or strategically proficient, or adapted to Combat operations. I had a BN commander who, according to all accounts, was a drat fine MP Officer. She had no concept of operations for theater. By her own admission, she had no studies or even significant lectures on Counter Insurgency. She seemed to have gotten no tactical or strategic goals or concept of operations, and treated our little land as garrison. Her patrol schedule cost 2 men limbs, one man his life, and gave a 21 year old kid significant head trauma, in addition to a double amputation on his loving birthday. Our Company Commander, who had 3 years as a Marine before going OCS, refused to stand up to her, even when he knew it was wrong and poor fieldcraft. I shocked my unit medic in the NG when I was signing papers to get kicked out (medboard), a medic asked if I knew the mentioned CO after seeing I deployed in his unit. "Did you deploy with him." "Unfortunately." "He's really hosed up from those guys. Nightmares. PTSD. He's hosed up." "Good. He should feel guilt. He cost those guys because he had no loving backbone." It's supposed to work like this- Nobles are the grown ups, NCOs are the Babysitter, the filthy enlisted the children. It doesn't matter if you have an excellent Nanny if the parent is neglectful or abusive. The kids have no real recourse, other than changing units or getting out. Otherwise, you risk your career, and in some cases, your life. Parents are supposed to be held responsible, but in the military, it's nearly always the enlisted that are held to task. Reminder- Lt Calley, the Officer who 'ordered' the My Lai Massacre, didn't do any time in Prison- years house arrest. The lower enlisted got actual punishment, as did a Servicemember who tried to stop it.
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Feb 15, 2023 17:25
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This seems like a very loving stupid system to not have any accountability for Officers.
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Feb 15, 2023 17:28
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Fivemarks posted:Which fits in with the general western ideal paradigm, but what about military traditions that don't have NCO's and put less of an emphasis on individual initiative and the idea that soldiers can be trusted to poo poo without an officer micromanage it? Like the Russians, traditionally, or what I've heard of some middle eastern militaries like the Egyptians and Saudis? Russian lieutenants are equivalent to western sgt. Their name might be the same as our officer name, but the job isn't the same. They also aren't treated as nobles like our LTs are.
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Feb 15, 2023 17:30
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Fivemarks posted:I'm basically getting two kinds of responses: All officers are bad and unneeded (which I know can't be the case, considering how often it is that an army without good leadership gets rolled up by a theoretically inferior force that has better leadership); and "Officers are good when they focus on the big picture and overall direction- handling the 'What' to do while leaving the 'how' to do it to others" I may be mistaken, but I think you are misinformed. All of those armies are run on Officer micromanagement, because they lack a strong NCO Corps. Neither reward individual initiative, unconventional thinking, or questioning of orders. In the ME, Officers tend to skew higher class- think like old British poo poo, where you could buy commissions- and misuse and abuse the lower enlisted as they are a different class. All of those examples of also hoard knowledge- very little cross training, and purposely training troops to a limited extent so they pose no threat.
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Feb 15, 2023 17:30
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bulletsponge13 posted:I may be mistaken, but I think you are misinformed. All of those armies are run on Officer micromanagement, because they lack a strong NCO Corps. Neither reward individual initiative, unconventional thinking, or questioning of orders. In the ME, Officers tend to skew higher class- think like old British poo poo, where you could buy commissions- and misuse and abuse the lower enlisted as they are a different class. All of those examples of also hoard knowledge- very little cross training, and purposely training troops to a limited extent so they pose no threat. No, that's exactly what i'm getting at- how does the western (ideal) paradigm compare and contrast with those other paradigms.
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Feb 15, 2023 18:02
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Fivemarks posted:No, that's exactly what i'm getting at- how does the western (ideal) paradigm compare and contrast with those other paradigms. Then I probably garbled the transmission. None of those armies have performed well in modern combat. The lack of flexibility and tend to under perform even in set piece 'conventional' war. Officers won't act without orders, and since individual initiative is typically killed off, you have things like tank units driving in column down a road getting picked off by ATGMs and enemy tank fire, but driving in a straight line down the road because that's what the orders were. Or stopping when you have ability to push because your orders said stop here. Officers in those militaries promotion is not typically based on performance, but politics, class, cash, and friends.
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Feb 15, 2023 18:11
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One big thing about low initiative high authority militaries is that they're built to point inside their borders just as much or more than outside. Compare them to US police forces instead of the US military and you'll see a lot more similarities.
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Feb 15, 2023 18:21
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shame on an IGA posted:One big thing about low initiative high authority militaries is that they're built to point inside their borders just as much or more than outside. Compare them to US police forces instead of the US military and you'll see a lot more similarities. Exactly. Authoritarian regimes often create a web of loyalty and distrust among services, almost always with different security forces focused on each other. All of those armies have something else in common- deep seated fear of coup/overthrow/assassination. They keep power and knowledge limited, and maintain Officer Corps that are a mirror to the internal politics. They will often also reflect the civilian security services. They will have a secret police for civilians, and a separate internal secret security force within the military. Command in these armies will be purposely curtailed and cultivated- if you rock the boat in any way, your promotion is done. If you are capable, but less popular, you will hit a ceiling to keep you from gaining power. To achieve high rank, you must be apathetic, willing to trade favors, and compliant to the ruling class. Even then, you might accidentally get a 9mm DUI.
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Feb 15, 2023 18:34
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Fivemarks posted:I'm basically getting two kinds of responses: All officers are bad and unneeded (which I know can't be the case, considering how often it is that an army without good leadership gets rolled up by a theoretically inferior force that has better leadership); and "Officers are good when they focus on the big picture and overall direction- handling the 'What' to do while leaving the 'how' to do it to others" Loyalty to the regime is all that matters
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Feb 15, 2023 18:39
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I don't like assuming we're "just better" because I feel like we're kinda just like rich assholes that can throw money around and pretend our success isn't dependent on a bunch of disgruntled junior enlisted not lighting it on fire at any given moment for some reason...probably healthcare. Like our infantry's probably on point but will undoubtedly fare far worse when SN Timmy fucks up some maintenance that leaves the four decade old floating airstrip that's got the nearest supporting air assets dead in the water or worse because he's been awake for 3 days.
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Feb 16, 2023 15:15
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CMD598 posted:I don't like assuming we're "just better" because I feel like we're kinda just like rich assholes that can throw money around and pretend our success isn't dependent on a bunch of disgruntled junior enlisted not lighting it on fire at any given moment for some reason...probably healthcare. Its not that clear cut: Western Militaries (at least the United States) train intensively for combat operations and are encouraged to take action as necessary on their own especially the NCO corps. Russia and a lot of other countries effectively train as a show rather than training for combat. This is becoming more and more apparent in that even their most well trained units like the VDV are absolutely struggling in normal combat, paralyzed by inability to make decisions at the NCO level and their inability to take action without being worried about being punished for going against the rigid orders they are given.
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Feb 16, 2023 15:23
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The Western force design is better for combat, period, for one reason: we cross train, and expect our guys to be able to perform the job responsibilities both one rank higher, and 2 lower. That means when we lose an NCO, the spot is typically filled instantly. A senior NCO can act in lieu of an Officer. A LT can act as a Captain. We instill and train that it should be reflex- we regularly 'kill' leadership in training exercises, sometimes appointing the lowest ranking man to then act as a Platoon commander. The militaries mentioned, plainly put, don't. An Officer acting independently and out of grade ends their career. They aren't taught to step up, because stepping up reflects badly on your boss. Their military exercises reflect this, and their combat performance often proves it. In those militaries, anything that makes you look good will make your boss look bad, and rank promotion depends further on maintaining the system than maintaining the force. There isn't a single conflict in history where the two opposing systems conflicted, and the Western style didn't outperform. I know there is a massive budgetary aspect to the two, but even in the micro, the Soviet style (the basis for that system) have proven not as capable in combat as the Western alternative. The control of knowledge is a big thing. The book Armies of Sand cover things like the Saudi Offciers confiscating all the documents and manuals- including the maintainence manual needed for basic operation- and refused to distribute them for fear the men would learn, and threaten his power. That is common in the militaries discussed- Russia operates in a similar manner. Besides the lack of logistics to train their guys, they have no desire to. The lower enlisted are fodder that require no knowledge beyond "That way and kill". Compare that to the US military, where can Privates will briefed on the concept of maneuver and details of operations. We will often take lower enlisted into briefings covering an entire operation so that they can be plug and play if needed, and aware of the battle space.
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Feb 16, 2023 16:01
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bulletsponge13 posted:The Western force design is better for combat, period, for one reason: we cross train, and expect our guys to be able to perform the job responsibilities both one rank higher, and 2 lower. That means when we lose an NCO, the spot is typically filled instantly. A senior NCO can act in lieu of an Officer. A LT can act as a Captain. We instill and train that it should be reflex- we regularly 'kill' leadership in training exercises, sometimes appointing the lowest ranking man to then act as a Platoon commander. Exactly. And it cannot be overemphasized: The US has a strong tradition of NCO leadership and a strong NCO corps. Russia, for example, has little to no NCOs.
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Feb 16, 2023 16:28
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CommieGIR posted:Russia and a lot of other countries effectively train as a show rather than training for combat. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjlCVW_ouL8
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Feb 16, 2023 20:30
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CommieGIR posted:Exactly. And it cannot be overemphasized: The US has a strong tradition of NCO leadership and a strong NCO corps. Russia, for example, has little to no NCOs. We also have the magic sword of logistics. American logistics have won wars and kept the troops happy/fed/supplied with Taco Bell in a warzone. We've seen what getting a random truck full of crap has done to Russian morale.
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Feb 16, 2023 21:04
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ASAPI posted:We also have the magic sword of logistics. Very much this. You can go into any logistics center in the DOD and they'll tell you where it is, what row, what building without almost spooky precision including how to deliver it to you asap. Russia seems to be just piling stuff in trucks and hoping it gets somewhere and not pillages before or after leaving the depot.
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Feb 16, 2023 21:34
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Weird. My copy of the book still says the opposite of OP. 
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Feb 17, 2023 04:06
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CMD598 posted:I don't like assuming we're "just better" because I feel like we're kinda just like rich assholes that can throw money around and pretend our success isn't dependent on a bunch of disgruntled junior enlisted not lighting it on fire at any given moment for some reason...probably healthcare. Our maintenance and logistics programs are adhered to (relatively) and SN timmy isnt the bottom line that maintenance is taking place. That kind of QA costs a lot of money but makes sure our ships dont look like the zhukov or whatever that Russian smokestack on the water is called. Collectively its money, continuous training (and warfare), and selecting competent military leadership(relatively) who are loyal to the state and largely apolitical (again relatively) that guides much of our success
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Feb 17, 2023 17:06
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Sentinel posted:Woah is this the first ever GIP mod challenge? Most certainly not. The one that springs immediately to mind is when the one dude got outed for pretending he was an SF Marine, which has led to many memes over the years. I think Secret Satan has led to a couple as well.
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Feb 17, 2023 18:06
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Sentinel posted:Woah is this the first ever GIP mod challenge? no but they took a long break forums-wide after Abe and Burt Sexual made it weird
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Feb 17, 2023 18:35
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Back to Military talk- you can have a functioning army without an NCO corps, but it requires the same attributes in low level/operational level officers that we apply to NCOs; initiative, self management and control, and an air of stubbornness/insubordination. More importantly, it requires a system that rewards those same attributes- attributes that chaff at the Officer mentality. No doubt logistics is why America is so dominant. We were able to write the book on worldwide war logistics, and worked incredibly hard at perfecting our systems. From what I've read, one of the few things McNamara did right was hiring civilian experts in transport and logistics to increase effectiveness.
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Feb 17, 2023 23:37
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https://www.cameo.com/caspervandien?nodeId=actors%2Fmovies&nodeType=category Come on OP you know what to do.
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Feb 19, 2023 00:52
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OP! It's 7 past High Noon in God's chosen timezone. What did you learn? Besides not to post half cocked in GiP?
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Feb 19, 2023 18:08
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bulletsponge13 posted:OP! It's 7 past High Noon in God's chosen timezone. Also did OP even read any of the book?
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Feb 19, 2023 18:09
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CainFortea posted:Also did OP even read any of the book? OP probably hosed off after making that last post thinking "I'm engaging like I was told to! One more post surely counts!"
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Feb 19, 2023 18:20
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Isn't a Mod Challenge failure a permaban?permanent? E- make his rap sheet reason a book reference. OP did the ol' Danny Deevers
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Feb 19, 2023 18:20
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bulletsponge13 posted:Isn't a Mod Challenge failure a permaban? I doubt it. It may have been once upon a time but nowadays the admins reserve permas for more serious things.
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Feb 19, 2023 18:21
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McNally posted:I doubt it. It may have been once upon a time but nowadays the admins reserve permas for more serious things. Can it at least lead to a forum shadowban and a "
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Feb 19, 2023 21:00
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We don't use gendered slurs anymore. Someone can come up with an appropriate starship troopers adjacent pejorative.
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Feb 19, 2023 21:18
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Before anyone wastes money on getting them a custom title, wait for the admins to flush the queue and then wait to see if he spends the ten bux to unban.
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Feb 19, 2023 21:19
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M_Gargantua posted:We don't use gendered slurs anymore. Goddamn mods banned us, Johnny.
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Feb 19, 2023 21:39
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M_Gargantua posted:We don't use gendered slurs anymore. I was referencing a previous failed GiP mod challenge. Considering what they called the non bug aliens in the book that would also be problematic and calling someone a civilian just makes you sound like a jaded passed over angry vet.
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Feb 19, 2023 21:42
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M_Gargantua posted:We don't use gendered slurs anymore.  "Kurzon's with intelligence? Have you ever met one?!"
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Feb 19, 2023 23:43
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CainFortea posted:
There's his new profile pic. Red text "Literacy Means Citizenship"
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Feb 20, 2023 00:19
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CainFortea posted:
Nothing that came out of Voyager had any loving intelligence. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 20, 2023 01:04
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Can we talk more about Starship Troopers? I was really interested in all that chat, and it's been a long time since I read the book. Yeah, it's a day later, but dammit, that was interesting stuff.
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Feb 21, 2023 01:00
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Sounds like a good time for you to reread it and report back!
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Feb 21, 2023 01:55
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Leave posted:Can we talk more about Starship Troopers? I was really interested in all that chat, and it's been a long time since I read the book. Chat away! I'm always down for this chat.
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Feb 21, 2023 02:07
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bulletsponge13 posted:There's his new profile pic. Red text "Literacy Means Citizenship" Ok this is better than what I was thinking of.
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Feb 21, 2023 02:22
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