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Flynne also thinks it's a sim way longer
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Dec 5, 2022 17:57
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also remember in the book, flynne is not piloting a humanoid peripheral at first, she's in what i envisioned as a drone designed to swat flying dragonfly-shaped paparazzi mini robots down, a hell of a lot more interesting of an introduction to future london, imho, than an expensive-to-shoot midnight motorcycle ride. there was also the thread about how rich people like to game in the future because they are taking literal money from poor people and making it hard for them to eat and flynne hates it, etc, there are just so many more and better themes they could have explored instead of coming up with whatever this turned out to be the drone racing stuff could have been neat too. i really felt that they were building to a two-track finale with flynne in london and her brother holding off the assault on the fab shop. the book is written almost exactly like a screenplay for it would break down. boar guy fucked around with this message at 18:22 on Dec 5, 2022 |
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Dec 5, 2022 18:15
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too many kung fu fights shoehorned in there imo. guess they felt obligated.
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Dec 5, 2022 18:19
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i think it lost me in the last couple of episodes, though even there there were still good things. The whole bit with assemblers magicking a building and then using it for "combat training" was pointless, and then as everyone has mentioned, Flynn creating a new stub and then offing herself just raises more questions. I'm sure Burton would be thrilled with Connor, too. But beyond that, I think they made a mistake turning the Jackpot into those three specific things, rather than the inevitable outcome of late-stage capitalism that had its start long before Flynn was born.
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Dec 6, 2022 19:54
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Albinator posted:But beyond that, I think they made a mistake turning the Jackpot into those three specific things, rather than the inevitable outcome of late-stage capitalism that had its start long before Flynn was born. Yeah that was where I checked out. Part of the beauty of the book is the simplicity of the answer to what ended the world being “You know all that poo poo you were warned about? That.”
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Dec 6, 2022 20:35
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I caught up on this and given that a lot of the changes they made seemed to be motivated by wanting to take the viewer by the hand and make sure they understood stuff, wow Flynne's plan was left quite vague. From early on it was clear this wasn't going to be at all the same story as the book and while I think I understand the reasons behind most of the changes, I think it's a weaker and less interesting story overall. They definitely seemed to be trying to split the difference between a season and series finale with where they left us. I'm sure I'll watch S2 when it comes but I'm not as stoked about it as I originally was for this. S2 might be interesting if we continue to see both the 'original' stub and Flynne's new one. There's no reason why original stub Connor couldn't interact with new stub Flynne in future London, either.
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Dec 7, 2022 19:51
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Something that really rubbed me the wrong way about this ending was: Hey mom I know you're dying, enjoy your remaining ~23 days grieving the seemingly senseless and untimely murder of your daughter
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Dec 7, 2022 20:22
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RichterIX posted:Something that really rubbed me the wrong way about this ending was: lmao so awful i have to laugh at it. I think I kind of hate the last episode now that I've had time to ruminate.
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Dec 7, 2022 20:27
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RichterIX posted:Something that really rubbed me the wrong way about this ending was: Yeah it's a good point! One thing that came across more strongly in the book is that our protagonists think of the people in the stubs as real people, and not disposable conveniences, which is why Lowbeer puts in time trying to mitigate/prevent the Jackpot and such. I guess you could argue that being alive to mourn Flynne and I guess somehow deal with Connor as her murderer is preferable to dying when a nuke goes off, but it's a pretty cavalier attitude for sure. I also thought the writing got pretty hammy in the last episode. That whole 'we used to call you our acorn, promise me you'll let that power grow' was incredibly heavy handed and very unlike the way Gibson characters ever express themselves.
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Dec 7, 2022 21:24
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After thinking about it some more I kinda feel that the whole stub concept is wasted. Don't know how it is in the book, but how much more interesting would it be to have, for example multiple versions of the same person from different stubs interacting, or really even seeing more than one stub. Because when you think about it, what would it fundamentally change in the story if both storylines were taking place in the same time? London is the refuge of rich people and government centres, and Flynne's town is jackpot survivors scraping by in the wasteland, doing gig work for the rich folk through telepresence or something. Boom, same exact show, maybe even better in some ways. I don't really feel that the 70 year gap does us anything interesting for the story, especially since we're explicitly told the events of the stub do not affect the future in any way.
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Dec 8, 2022 18:53
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the 'sequel' shifts the focus of the book to another stub, but retains the thread of Wilf and Lowbeer and the klept and so forth after the jackpot, i think if there's ever a third book Flynne and the protagonist of Agency are going to meet up, i mean if you really wanted to Make A Property out of this you could always just introduce another stub to write about.
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Dec 8, 2022 18:58
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Jackpot extended universe. Still pissed they never made Netherton cut about Flynne's house as an ipad strapped to a roomba.
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Dec 8, 2022 19:10
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keep punching joe posted:Jackpot extended universe. was really hoping to see a glum-rear end wilf pining after the autobar
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Dec 8, 2022 19:12
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A major theme of the book is that they're just using the Server (what establishes the connections with the stubs) to gently caress around and exploit alternate pasts instead of doing anything truly remarkable with it. The people using the Server refer to each other as hobbyists and are basically just bored rich people. I think Gibson is riffing on Moorcock's End of Time stories.
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Dec 8, 2022 19:15
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grate deceiver posted:After thinking about it some more I kinda feel that the whole stub concept is wasted. Don't know how it is in the book, but how much more interesting would it be to have, for example multiple versions of the same person from different stubs interacting, or really even seeing more than one stub. Because when you think about it, what would it fundamentally change in the story if both storylines were taking place in the same time? London is the refuge of rich people and government centres, and Flynne's town is jackpot survivors scraping by in the wasteland, doing gig work for the rich folk through telepresence or something. Boom, same exact show, maybe even better in some ways. I don't really feel that the 70 year gap does us anything interesting for the story, especially since we're explicitly told the events of the stub do not affect the future in any way. in the book it turns out Lowbeer was alive before the Jackpot and was in contact with her past self in the stub.
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Dec 8, 2022 19:21
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PeterWeller posted:A major theme of the book is that they're just using the Server (what establishes the connections with the stubs) to gently caress around and exploit alternate pasts instead of doing anything truly remarkable with it. The people using the Server refer to each other as hobbyists and are basically just bored rich people. I think Gibson is riffing on Moorcock's End of Time stories. i like that aspect of the book a lot but will fully admit that it isn't very commercializable, if that's a word i always pictured the wheelie boy like this: https://www.doublerobotics.com/  but in like garish red speak and spell plastic boar guy fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Dec 8, 2022 |
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Dec 8, 2022 19:22
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uber_stoat posted:in the book it turns out Lowbeer was alive before the Jackpot and was in contact with her past self in the stub. I've often thought about this in the context of the show-- in a book it's fine to have a trans person interact with their pre-transition self, but it seems like it could be awkward in a TV show when you're dealing with a real life trans actress and putting them in the position of having to interact with someone meant to represent the character pre-transition?
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Dec 8, 2022 20:34
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RichterIX posted:I've often thought about this in the context of the show-- in a book it's fine to have a trans person interact with their pre-transition self, but it seems like it could be awkward in a TV show when you're dealing with a real life trans actress and putting them in the position of having to interact with someone meant to represent the character pre-transition? 
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Dec 8, 2022 21:03
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boar guy posted:the 'sequel' shifts the focus of the book to another stub, but retains the thread of Wilf and Lowbeer and the klept and so forth after the jackpot, i think if there's ever a third book Flynne and the protagonist of Agency are going to meet up, If I am remembering Agency right [spoiler] they also send Conner from the Peripheral stub to pilot another death machine in the Agency stub. uber_stoat posted:in the book it turns out Lowbeer was alive before the Jackpot and was in contact with her past self in the stub. There's also Clovis, who is alive in both timeframes; Lowbeer seems to value the fact that she can remember things about the past that have been lost in the official records. To me the most interesting thing (in the book) about the separation of the time frames is the difference between how different characters relate to people in the stub(s). For some they're obviously entirely disposable and not worth worrying over except to the extent that they can be exploited, others treat them as real people who should be helped even if there's no tangible benefit to doing so.
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Dec 8, 2022 22:57
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RichterIX posted:I've often thought about this in the context of the show-- in a book it's fine to have a trans person interact with their pre-transition self, but it seems like it could be awkward in a TV show when you're dealing with a real life trans actress and putting them in the position of having to interact with someone meant to represent the character pre-transition? well and also in Agency Lowbeer interacts with a version of herself that was born female, i think?
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Dec 8, 2022 23:29
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precision posted:well and also in Agency Lowbeer interacts with a version of herself that was born female, i think?
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Dec 9, 2022 02:29
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some fun ideas. i imagine from source material. shame about the poop poop writing
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Dec 9, 2022 02:56
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Having just finished this show, I liked the stuff in "the past" but all the stuff in "the future" seemed confusing and pointless. I have no idea who the future factions are or what they want, and it seems like there are only about a dozen people in the entire world - and they're all working on (mutually incompatible) nefarious plans.grate deceiver posted:I somehow assumed that you can't branch off a stub from another stub, only from the "original" timeline, so Flynn2 would have no knowledge of any events we witnessed in the show. But if it's a 1:1 copy of Flynn1's stub then that makes a lot more sense I guess. Cojawfee posted:But then Lev meets up with those dudes telling him to cauterize the entire branch of the tree to make sure nothing gets back to them. Cojawfee posted:What I don't get is why they are able to just freely control these peripherals whenever they want. Don't they belong to Zubov? Why are they allowed to just take these peripherals out and about to plot against Zubov?
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Dec 10, 2022 15:36
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Tiggum posted:Having just finished this show, I liked the stuff in "the past" but all the stuff in "the future" seemed confusing and pointless. I have no idea who the future factions are or what they want, and it seems like there are only about a dozen people in the entire world - and they're all working on (mutually incompatible) nefarious plans. In the book, the unclear motives of the 'bad guys' is intended; part of what Gibson is trying to communicate is that ordinary people get affected by decisions made by the very wealthy and powerful and don't even understand what just happened to their world. It works better in the book because the antagonists are almost entirely 'off-screen' moving pieces behind the scenes, but I sort of understand why someone might think that doesn't work for TV or a mass audience. I can't remember if it was in the book or the show, but at some point the 'stub of a stub' thing was addressed when someone asks if they can't just check the past of Flynne's stub, and the answer is 'that will just create a new stub'. Leaving aside whether that really answers the question about why they can't check further in the past to answer questions about 'now' (to me, it doesn't) it does indicate that they can create stubs off stubs. I think when they're talking about cauterizing stubs they do mean causing a nuclear war to happen so that there's no-one there who can answer questions. Though I think (and I'm pretty sure this was only in the book) once the connection to a stub has been broken it's supposed to be the next thing to impossible to ever get it back rather than creating a new stub. I'm pretty sure Flynne's idea was that the RI *wouldn't* nuke the state if they're confident the information has been destroyed, though I'm not sure what they have to lose by *also* doing that. Though it also seems that the idea that the data has been destroyed is going to get blown as soon as Flynne is still visiting the future and I guess they're relying on the impossibility of finding the new stub she created. I 100% agree that either they haven't thought through the implications of Flynne's plan for the people in her time, orrrr that's going to be a major part of next season. I guess we'll see.
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Dec 10, 2022 16:01
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How did Cherise resurrect Daniel, the henchman? She brings him back in a robot body in episode 4. Then asks the robot Daniel who killed the original Daniel. So the robot has Daniels memories, but his personality still needs to be adjusted? Meaning its not an actual resurrection but a robot simulating Daniel? Which is done entirely for badass villain flavor... don't need a whole fake Daniel to access the memories.
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Dec 11, 2022 20:40
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MP1989 posted:How did Cherise resurrect Daniel, the henchman? She brings him back in a robot body in episode 4. Then asks the robot Daniel who killed the original Daniel. So the robot has Daniels memories, but his personality still needs to be adjusted? Meaning its not an actual resurrection but a robot simulating Daniel? Which is done entirely for badass villain flavor... don't need a whole fake Daniel to access the memories. There's a half-developed thread in the show about people using michikoids as replacements for lost loved ones. I didn't give much thought to the "asking him who killed him" part because I assumed she was just using him as an interface to access whatever network of information exists for her to access. I think the koid has Daniel's "memories" only insomuch as there's a digital record of what went down when he died?
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Dec 11, 2022 21:33
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I finished this, and it was a lot better than I expected based on the lukewarm reception here. The over-the-top James Bond villain dialogue was the only thing that really bothered me. The plotting and world-building was good and it had a lot of great side characters. I thought they couldn't top Bob, the Geriatric Irish Hitman, but then they introduce Transgender Cyborg Hercule Poirot! It also had some subtle moments of good writing. Like when the disabled soldier reveals that he came to their aid because one of the enemy soldiers showed pity towards him, and he couldn't abide that. We later learn that he is the one with empathy enhancements that made him unable to shoot the booby-trapped dog. That is why he can't tolerate pity: It ruined his life, so no one else should get away with it either.
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Dec 30, 2022 11:20
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finished this last night, this show loving sucks. plot points that went nowhere, included for no other reason than to pad out multiple episodes the plot itself rewritten to the point that it made The Running Man look like a faithful adaptation at least Foundation is funny-bad in a Rifftrax kind of way, this just sucked.
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Jan 17, 2023 15:53
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evenworse username posted:I'm pretty sure Flynne's idea was that the RI *wouldn't* nuke the state if they're confident the information has been destroyed, though I'm not sure what they have to lose by *also* doing that. Though it also seems that the idea that the data has been destroyed is going to get blown as soon as Flynne is still visiting the future and I guess they're relying on the impossibility of finding the new stub she created. Yes, it was supposed to tie to what Flynn's mother said to the assassin about doing his mission at gunpoint: "you do have another choice. You could kill yourself." The rationale for Flynn is the same: if Flynne 1 is dead, there is no need for Cherise to destroy Stub 1. Meanwhile, Flynne 2 (likely a near-copy of Flynne 1, with the god-code) can continue to strike at the RI, because Cherise has no way to attack Stub 2. Connor was also selected because of his conversations with Flynn's brother about regretting empathy and willing the brother to kill him. It's an interesting idea, but I don't think there was enough groundwork for it. The show's reason for Cherise now sparing stub 1 is that stubs are very valuable, but: -Cherise has been shown to be vengeful and sadistic. -Flynn 1's allies know most of what she did and can still attack the future plus are probably now out for revenge. -Cherise has already started the process which is just an acceleration of what happened in the real world, naturally. Can she stop it even if she wants to? Avasculous fucked around with this message at 19:04 on Feb 1, 2023 |
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Feb 1, 2023 18:58
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S (small town deputy) - “I found a cloaking SUV. This is the future but still I have never seen such technology in use. Please come look at this awesome cloaking vehicle.” A (small town war veteran implanted with experimental technology) - “no” S - “you don’t want to see the futuristic cloaking SUV I found…like no interest. What about your friends who spend all day playing drones and computers” A - “no” (A really does want to see the cool car but he’s trying not to be suspicious and going with S to see the cool thing would be suspicious) S - “did you ever see the filmed in Calgary show Viper? It’s like that except not poo poo. The effects are really well done” A - “did this cloaking vehicle have anything to do with the hit and run killing of that officer yesterday?” S - “oh my gosh, our entire police department and myself completely forgot about Officer whatshisface! Whoops. Well I guess I will go tell everyone in our town about this cloaking suv we found. Probably charge $10 to look at it. gently caress all else to do here…one of a kind thing one might see in their life… A - “no” (S walks away confused about why A is acting so loving suspiciouslyj
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Feb 1, 2023 23:57
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SimonChris posted:I finished this, and it was a lot better than I expected based on the lukewarm reception here. The over-the-top James Bond villain dialogue was the only thing that really bothered me. The plotting and world-building was good and it had a lot of great side characters. I thought they couldn't top Bob, the Geriatric Irish Hitman, but then they introduce Transgender Cyborg Hercule Poirot! Lowbeer wasn't explicitly coded as trans in the book, just a certain kind of British woman (a la Thatcher) that was very male-coded. Connor comes across better here than in the novel, and I liked that we saw some real humanity in Wilf as well as more of his backstory, tragic that is was.
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Feb 2, 2023 00:24
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Dr. Yinz Ljubljana posted:Lowbeer wasn't explicitly coded as trans in the book, just a certain kind of British woman (a la Thatcher) that was very male-coded. Connor comes across better here than in the novel, and I liked that we saw some real humanity in Wilf as well as more of his backstory, tragic that is was. Except I think we meet pre-Jackpot Lowbeer who at that point hasn't transitioned.
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Feb 2, 2023 00:34
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edit : doubleposting, not cool
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Feb 2, 2023 00:37
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evenworse username posted:Except I think we meet pre-Jackpot Lowbeer who at that point hasn't transitioned. Yup, Lowbeer is explicitly trans and casting a trans actor was one of the few things William Gibson hammered through before he got sick and became less involved in the show
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Feb 2, 2023 17:05
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RichterIX posted:Yup, Lowbeer is explicitly trans and casting a trans actor was one of the few things William Gibson hammered through before he got sick and became less involved in the show https://twitter.com/GreatDismal/status/1231076930155212800 Tilda Swinton would have been great in the role, but casting a trans actress is probably better, yes. Edit: I looked up Quentin Crisp, and I can see what they were going for:  
SimonChris fucked around with this message at 17:25 on Feb 2, 2023 |
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Feb 2, 2023 17:22
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https://twitter.com/ThePeripheralPV/status/1623743540508430337
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Feb 9, 2023 19:13
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A rare and very welcome win for glossy sci-fi nonsense.
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Feb 9, 2023 21:21
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lol how
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Feb 10, 2023 02:58
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Glad to hear they get another shot, hope they don't gently caress it up again.
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Feb 10, 2023 12:26
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keep punching joe posted:Glad to hear they get another shot, hope they don't gently caress it up again. ahahahahahaha
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Feb 10, 2023 14:17
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