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1secondpersecond posted:I play a lot of SI, usually around difficulty 5-7. Can anybody help me not hate BoDAN? I love spirits with serious tradeoffs, like Wildfire and Ocean, and special abilities that change the game completely, like Downpour. But I just don't get BoDAN. There is a playtest variant from the developer available that makes Bodan feel a lot better. Otherwise I've only found one way to play BoDAN at higher difficulties with any degree of success. E: This is from my Google doc. I've not tried it since the new, better variant. It is probably outdated, especially against newer adversaries. Turn 1 Growth 4, Energy Card Plays: Dreams of the Dahan, Predatory Nightmares Drop presence at a location that will ravage next turn, gather up Dahan 2 energy reserved Turn 2 Growth 4, Energy Card Plays: Dread Apparitions, Call on Midnight’s Dreams Draft a major power with cost 4 or less if 2 Dahan, 5 or less if 3+ Dahan. Get a major with achievable elemental thresholds. Turn 3 Growth 3, Energy, Minor Power (draft with innate or major in mind) Card Plays: Major and Minor Power Turn 4 Growth 1, Minor Power (draft with innate or major in mind) Card Plays: Major and Minor Power Turn 5 or 6 Growth 2, Energy, Reclaim Major Card Plays: Major and Minor Power Turn 5 or 6 Growth 3, Energy, Minor Power (draft with innate or major in mind) Card Plays: Starters up to cost 2 If turn 6, Dreams and Dread can trigger Defense 4 Turn 7 Growth 2, Energy, Reclaim Major Card Plays: Major and Minor Power Turn 8 Growth 1, Card Plays: Major and Minor Power Note: Can replace any Growth 2 turn with Growth 3, drafting a new major to replace old major, discarded minor, or 2 cost starting card. Do this turn 5 if initial Major has elemental thresholds that are very difficult or impossible to reach. KPC_Mammon fucked around with this message at 22:48 on Apr 2, 2023 |
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Apr 2, 2023 22:41
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In more general terms, personally my preferred way to play bodan is to fish for a decent aggressive major asap and then spam it until I win. There's not much reason to ever play presence from the bottom track, so it's not hard to predict how much energy you'll have from turn to turn, so you'll know when you can start looping your major every turn for the win. You don't have to be picky about your majors either, just something that can "kill" cities and maybe lets you stall with defense in some way, though the latter is secondary because this is a race. Bodan is a tempo spirit, in solo especially. The fact that cities don't move isn't necessarily a bad thing, by the way. One city is easy to defend against with your starting cards, two is tricky but also gives you a place to aim your majors at for (ideally) 10 fear a turn. Two and a half fear cards, not counting any other thing you're doing! Drawing one fear card might or might not help you, but three should give you something to buy time with.
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Apr 2, 2023 23:49
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Ragnar34 posted:two blight per player on the boards (six for three players for example) Revisited page one and spotted this - it would actually be seven for three players after errata. 2 per player +1 https://querki.net/u/darker/spirit-island-faq/#!one-more-blight-errata And another link that's good for the OP: Rules semi-commonly misplayed. Helped me early on. Entire FAQ is fantastic, actually. It's my go-to at the table over the rules sheet, it has tons of niche explanations and rulings. Today it wasn't clear to us if Ocean's generates fear immediately after Drowning or only after converting the invader to energy and it took about thirty seconds to look up (Ocean's generates fear immediately when Drowning invaders, exactly as if they were Destroyed). Perry Mason Jar fucked around with this message at 01:47 on Apr 3, 2023 |
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Apr 3, 2023 01:39
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Admiralty Flag posted:As an experienced player, is it the undertuned tracks (especially the plays track) and inability to push cities (I mean, I get it thematically, but it's a big weakness that has to be managed with Dread Apparition, a costly power)? Or is it something else? Because I think those two problems are enough to really handicap it at higher levels of play. You've got it exactly - balanced track progression feels wildly mismatched to early invader progression, and unbalanced strategies make it hard to respond to certain card draws (particularly early builds in land #2). Playing it against England 5 or Sweden 3 is frustrating without support from an OP secondary like Spread of Rampant Green. I will have to try that opener, KPC. I love the thematic feel of bombing major powers with "phantom" effects, it's just underwhelming in practice.
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Apr 3, 2023 05:00
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Yeah, major powers aren't really worth the energy unless you can trigger thresholds. Sometimes things are going poorly and you have to go for an emergency major but there is a reason most spirits in the initial release wanted to advance the Plays track. Newer spirits seem better designed in that regard.
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Apr 3, 2023 05:12
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1secondpersecond posted:You've got it exactly - balanced track progression feels wildly mismatched to early invader progression, and unbalanced strategies make it hard to respond to certain card draws (particularly early builds in land #2). An early build in land #2 isn't necessarily something you should feel the need to respond to. Most spirits need to temper their responsiveness with the need to make progress elsewhere, and this is even more true for BoDaN. Two cards and no innates that affect the board directly literally isn't enough juice to react meaningfully, but you can power through the fear deck way faster than anyone else and those fear cards will usually bail you out for the relatively few turns until you deck out on fear.
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Apr 3, 2023 05:36
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What's the best fear spirit in everyone's opinion? Particularly for solo play. Played a couple games last night, Eyes Watch vs Prussia 1 (Difficulty 2) then Shadows Flicker (Amorphous) vs England 1 (Difficulty 3). Bottom track Many Eyes, don't think I revealed even one off the top track. Mostly bottom track Shadows, pulled one from top track. Won both games handily. For the Shadows game because I won so quickly and, to me, suddenly, I threw the England Level 2 on there to just keep playing (Wetlands had never been drawn anyway), which I did get destroyed on (obviously the game would've played differently if I started at Level 2, just for kicks here). I'm more interested in additional spirits (I play a different one every game, I just like variety) than anything else - what should I buy next? (Own Horizons + Base). Edit: I wrote Many Eyes, I meant Eyes Watch not Many Minds. Perry Mason Jar fucked around with this message at 16:23 on Apr 4, 2023 |
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Apr 4, 2023 15:53
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I think Many Minds Move as One is better suited for solo than most fear spirits--it gets enough defense to reliably keep itself alive until you run out the fear deck, which most fear spirits struggle with on their own. Spamming fear and praying that flipping a pile of fear cards will bail you out usually works, but Many Minds usually has a better safety net.
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Apr 4, 2023 16:10
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Ocean's Hungry Grasp is the best fear spirit. Smash Ships to Flinders + drowning cities and towns = profit. Just need someone inland feeding you the runners. It wasn't much of a challenge, but it was fun -- I taught a game to a couple of base set SI players who had never played adversaries using B&C/JE (so, introducing events + tokens). I trimmed off spirits like Starlight and Finder, said, "These are probably too complex to mess with," and let them pick their spirits from the remainder. One had never played any high-difficulty spirits, so he took Ocean. The other was intrigued by Lure. I took River so I could push like crazy. (Would've taken BoDaN for the "challenge" if I had thought of it.) The rest of the game was an orgy of destruction as invaders fell into one of the two mosh pits Lure set up or got swept toward the ocean to drown. Just a conveyor belt of death. Think I'll be able to convince them to try adversaries next time.
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Apr 4, 2023 18:13
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Ocean paired with any spirit geared towards pushing invaders around is an A+ combination.
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Apr 4, 2023 18:23
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It's touch and go for a little while but Silent Mist has a really fun mid / endgame as a fear spirit
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Apr 4, 2023 19:01
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My girlfriend and I play SI at least once a week. My favorite spirit is Ocean. Her favorite spirit is Lure. They have absolutely no synergy, but it doesn't matter. Lure turns a couple lands into backwater Alabama, and the invaders vanish. Ocean smashes everything on the coasts. Nowhere is safe. I want to play a game with Ocean + Lure + Volcano once, to add yet another layer of "the island itself hates you." In a four player game, I'd probably add Serpent to that mix.
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Apr 4, 2023 19:06
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Impermanent posted:It's touch and go for a little while but Silent Mist has a really fun mid / endgame as a fear spirit I've never found that spirit viable on high difficulties despite trying maybe a dozen times. Do you have advice?
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Apr 4, 2023 20:08
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My review of Shroud as a spirit is that I love it, and love hurts. No advice, I just wanted to chip in. I can't wait to see the aspects, because playtesters say they're a lot stronger. I can't believe Anyway I used to see Shroud as a pure fear spirit like Bodan, keeping enemies alive to farm fear instead of actually killing things, but now I think it's an offense spirit with supplemental fear generation as you chisel enemies down over a period of turns. It's still not that great at either. Some good news is, its energy generation is better than it looks. With fear farms and regular powers, you can get to 2 energy a turn in the very early game, and 3 consistently. Shroud is generally just not the spirit I thought it was, and not necessarily in a bad way. Although I still want those strife tokens. Discussion: I've heard it argued that fear generation scales poorly with player count in practice, and I've also heard that it's fine. I'm leaning toward the latter with the proviso that if only one player is generating any fear (some spirits are trying to win before fear 3, I feel) then you're facing an uphill battle to have a meaningful impact. Opinions? Ragnar34 fucked around with this message at 07:14 on Apr 5, 2023 |
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Apr 5, 2023 01:48
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Ragnar34 posted:I can't believe Isaac nerfed it in production, saying the playtesters kept saying it was underpowered and he kept bumping it up in power bit by bit, until he played it himself and in his opinion it was ridiculous, so he knocked it down again. Now it's unreliable as hell. You know it used to have strife tokens!? I want to say Isaac overvalues fear, but he knows his own game better than I ever will, and some of the fear hybrid spirits are really good. It was a bit more complicated than that. The broad consensus was that it was fine, but nobody was really getting much use out of the special rule. Everyone played it as a generic damage spirit, and it performed just fine in that capacity, but was a bit boring. So Eric (Isaac is the name of the gloomhaven guy) kept punching up the special rule in an attempt to make Shroud more unique, reasoning that if people were getting so little use out of the rule that making that part of Shroud better wouldn't be overpowering. Then at some point a couple people tried really leaning into the special rule and realized that you could easily farm a ton of fear while also having top tier damage output. Other playtesters said "no way", tried it out, and said "oh." If you want to get the experience of this version of Shroud, just play River Surges in Sunlight using a greedy bottom track build and then also award yourself an extra 2 energy and 5 fear/turn just for existing. That's basically what it felt like, since it was originally balanced around being able to contribute as much as any other spirit with no fear farming output required. Eric chaos dunked it from outer space with like half a dozen nerfs and... amazingly, it was pretty much just right, people tried the new version and once they adjusted to fear farming being mandatory they agreed it was good. Then several weeks later in one of the last updates before change lock he tweaked the tertiary water requirement on the damage innate up for flavor and thematic reasons. This was where the mistake was, IMO. This last tweak didn't actually change the power curve at all, but it did make Shroud less reliable because it greatly increased the demand for moon+air+water cards. After the big nerf, you could easily fish enough moon+air to keep your innate damage up, but then that little nerf meant that just finding moon+air wasn't always good enough anymore. If you get good draws and hit your element trifecta a couple times you can still be a fear + damage powerhouse, it's just that the threshold for "good draws" is a lot tighter than it was when you only really had to worry about 2 elements. Unfortunately the issue didn't really get picked up in playtesting because there were only a few weeks left at that point and it's a probabilities issue so it takes a fair few games to become obvious. the holy poopacy fucked around with this message at 02:30 on Apr 5, 2023 |
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Apr 5, 2023 02:28
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I think most of my games with shroud left me just slightly short on the elements I needed to be useful, so that checks out. I really like the spirit but it just felt half a turn too slow every time.
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Apr 5, 2023 06:57
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God I fucking love Diablo 3 gold, it even paid for this shitty title
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you pretty much have to play super greedy with mist and get to 3 plays and 2 power per turn ASAP. Underplaying the first turn to allow you to push harder into the plays track. It's not great but it works most of the time. Thankfully the new expansion coming later this year has an aspect for Mist that is supposed to buff it back into a power level more in line with other spirits.
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Apr 5, 2023 07:09
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the holy poopacy posted:It was a bit more complicated than that. This is fascinating, thanks for saying something. It's amazing what that one little change could do. Also oh my god the man's name is right on the box 
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Apr 5, 2023 07:16
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the holy poopacy posted:. Unfortunately the issue didn't really get picked up in playtesting because there were only a few weeks left at that point and it's a probabilities issue so it takes a fair few games to become obvious. 
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Apr 5, 2023 15:55
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Ragnar34 posted:This is fascinating, thanks for saying something. It's amazing what that one little change could do. I still stand by my assertion that Shadows Flicker would be a top tier spirit if you add an element to one of its starter cards. Being able to trigger innates without a lucky draft and having more options on the order you play powers early game would be huge. The aspects are nice but element generation was the real problem with the core version.
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Apr 5, 2023 19:31
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Do I need B&C or can I grab JE first? I'm more interested in the JE spirits than anything else.
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Apr 5, 2023 19:57
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Perry Mason Jar posted:Do I need B&C or can I grab JE first? I'm more interested in the JE spirits than anything else. You can play JE without B&C; JE contains B&C tokens and rules edit: wait, someone please verify this first, it's been quite a while for me, don't want to guide PMJ wrong
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Apr 5, 2023 20:02
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Admiralty Flag posted:You can play JE without B&C; JE contains B&C tokens and rules Yeah you can play JE without B&C but you get a bunch of events, blight cards and power cards that are less fiddly than the ones in JE so skipping it is not something I recommend.
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Apr 5, 2023 21:13
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Azran posted:Yeah you can play JE without B&C but you get a bunch of events, blight cards and power cards that are less fiddly than the ones in JE so skipping it is not something I recommend. counterpoint: the cards in JE are barely any more fiddly and they own bones compared to B&C, both are ideal but if you have to pick one go JE 100% of the time.
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Apr 5, 2023 21:38
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the holy poopacy posted:counterpoint: the cards in JE are barely any more fiddly and they own bones compared to B&C, both are ideal but if you have to pick one go JE 100% of the time. Given you clearly know your stuff I'll bow down to your expertise, I must be misremembering because it's been a hot minute since I got to play SI
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Apr 5, 2023 21:42
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Azran posted:Given you clearly know your stuff I'll bow down to your expertise, I must be misremembering because it's been a hot minute since I got to play SI Jagged Earth just gets you so much more stuff than B&C. It's twice the price, but it's at least 4x the content.
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Apr 5, 2023 21:44
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you do want to go back and get B&C stuff though because I believe the majority of the Events deck is in there.
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Apr 5, 2023 21:48
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Played a game with Lure of the Deep Wilderness because it’s my favourite spirit by far. Goddamn I love the steady rhythms of playing a slow set up by luring people in/creating a mosh pit with the starting cards, and then unleashing the hurt in the next turn in the fast phase. I was playing with a friend playing Finder of the Paths Unseen and I managed to draw Quicken The Earth’s Struggle and hmm, that was pretty much the only things I needed to win the game. My fellow spirit kept packing in towns and cities into my mosh pits, and playing Quicken along with Swallowed by the Wilderness was an incredible amount of damage and fear (had like a place with a city and 5 towns and they all evaporated), and that along with my relatively poweful innate was more than enough.
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Apr 6, 2023 00:18
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Looks like I'm getting to play SI this weekend after not playing for quite a while (couple of years at least, sadly). I've always been intrigued by Starlight Seeks Its Form but never had a chance to play it since Jagged Earth arrived well after my regular group meetups got disrupted by the pandemic. Any good strategies for Starlight or is it all about reacting on the fly to the powers you draw?
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Apr 6, 2023 03:26
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With Starlight I like to dump my starter hand for a bevy of powers asap and use that to tailor where I direct my growth. Find a powerful major power and tailor yourself to always, always hit its threshold.
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Apr 6, 2023 04:00
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Inspired by the LP and because I love the spirit so much, I want to do a mini-review of Lure. I've played about 3-4 games with the spirit so some stuff might be wrong (or just my opinion) so if people want to critique my review or want to correct something since they have more experience with it, feel free. Lure of the Deep Wilderness  Most early Dahan settlements clustered along the coasts. From time to time, a handful of residents would get a distant look in their eyes and stride off into the heart of the island, no pleading or reason dissuading them from seeking some distant call only they could hear. Many of these involuntary wanderers survived and settles together in time. This may have hastened the First Reckoning, as they relied much more on agriculture than did their fishing bretheren along the coast. A few wanderers spoke of finding the Spirit which called them ever-further inward, in voices of wonder mingled with fear. But most never even saw it, only felt its distant beckoning. Lure of the Deep Wilderness is meant to be the Land Counterpart to Ocean's Hungry Grasp: while the latter is forced to remain in costal lands, Lure is forced to remain Inland, never once able to touch the costal lands of the Island. I do think that the limitation for Ocean, however, is more stifling to its strategy than Lure, and the combination of its innates and starting power cards means that Lure has an easier time overwhelming invaders, even if they are in costal lands, than Ocean has in terms of dealing with Invaders that are deep inland. Lure is one of the premier Explorer killers in the game, and has a variety of different ways to move explorers around, as well as kill them: this easily allows Lure to draw explorers out of areas where they recently explored, making it relatively easy to prevent builds once Lure is set up. It can even react to towns being placed, either through escalation effect or opponent powers, although it can struggle to deal with cities with just their initial power cards and innates, although the innates do allow destruction of cities eventually. Special Rules Lure's special build on their specialisation: Home of the Island's Heart prevents your presence from being placed or moved to costal lands (even if someone else is doing the moving for you), while Enthrall the Foreign Invaders prevents 2 explorers from ravaging per presence you have, which can be very useful in a pinch. Unique Power Cards The starting power cards for Lure are, in my opinion, quite potent and efficient in terms of power, and you'll be leaning on them even late in the game. You can almost build an entire offense just on them, although additional sources of damage and abilities that draw in more invaders into your moshpits can be welcome.  This is probably the most situational card that Lure has, although the element distribution is quite nice. The Wilds token can be used to boost your moshpit, or just to prevent the invaders from exploring inland. I've only used the disease token once or twice, to prevent city builds, but since it is slow it can take a lot of set up to use properly, so it's very rare that I place a disease with this card.  I've grouped these together because I usually use them in tandem. Softly Beckon Ever Inward is an incredible movement card, and allows you to start setting up what I like to call the Lure "moshpits". Moshpits are single areas, usually set up within the middle of an island, that has a combination of beast, badlands, wilds or disease tokens, along with usually some Dahan (although Dahans are less useful because you don't have any defense unless you fish for them, and your Special Rules can be a nonbo since you can potentially prevent ravages outright). Perils of the Deep Island is the second part, and creates Badlands, Beast tokens and potentially push out Dahan, although the main thing you will use it for is the beast/badlands token placement. Once you have set up your moshpit with the above two cards, it is time to liquidate it, which is where the final unique card comes in.  This card, to me, is incredible. You can do up to 5 damage, fast, for one cost, with additional fear production. As well as that, you probably placed Badlands the previous turn, so the damage on this card is increased even more. The only thing going against it is that it does not have a moon element, but even then this is a really powerful card and plays well into the natural ebb and flow of Lure. Innate Powers  The innates are also fairly powerful within themselves, although you will need some help to trigger them in terms of elements. Forsake Society to Chase After Dreams is basically the way you can bust up Cities eventually, especially if they are in the coast and relatively hard for you to reach. Never Heard From Again is meant to either help you set up the moshpit or help liquidate it, with the explorer destruction being quite powerful by itself. It is possible to use your innates from the very start, since playing Softly Beckon Ever Inward with Perils of the Deep Island just require an extra green element (which you can get as a growth option!) in order to be able to use both the second stage of Forsake Society and the explorer-destruction part of Never Heard From Again, but to hit the other sections you will need some help, either from your presence tracks or from additional card plays. The innates are also a relatively good source of fear as well, especially since you can farm fear from explorers, although the one for Forsake Society is conditional and does mean that cities will only give you one fear instead of two, since replacing invaders does not give fear rewards. Presence Track and Growth  Growth options are relatively standard: you can only realistically place one presence per turn (if you don't reclaim), and you have an inland restrictions, although being able to place up to 4 away does mean that you have a surprisingly large reach and can pop up to deal with problem areas relatively easily. The energy/element or picking up a minor/major power is also pretty standard, and you usually will want to pick up cards unless you absolutely need a specific element or need energy to play cards. The presence track doesn't have many surprises either, just having a pretty standard energy and card play progression, although with some elements sprinkled in and a "Reclaim One" at the end of each track. Opening Play and Strategy In my opinion, Lure's best opener is to place presence and gain energy and a green element during growth, uncovering the 2 card play space in the presence track. You then play Softly Beckon Ever Inward and Perils of the Deep Wilderness to start creating a moshpit as soon as possible. This will also allow you to play your innate powers, and this is a huge leg up in terms of getting set up and already start dealing with invaders and stifle them from the get-go. Turn two, depending on how large your moshpit is, is then used to play your other two cards, with a potential for picking up a minor power as well. Picking up Minor powers that give you the right elements and either augment your damage in the moshpit, or allow you to push/gather more invaders into the moshpit is also really good, since your powers, although powerful, have a limit in terms of how many invaders they can actually deal with. Eventually you will want to get into a rhythm of playing your set-up slow powers one turn, and your damaging fast powers in the next, with even small sources of damage doing quite a bit of leg-work thanks to Badlands, so getting efficient fast minor powers is crucial. Ideally you also want to push the card play track as much as possible, since your growth options have sources of energy, although the elements (especially moon) from the energy track can be useful. Thematical Conveyance I feel that the thematic conveyance of Lure is incredibly, and the spirit itself has lots of neat touches that really showcases how far the design of spirits has gone, especially since Jagged Earth. For example, most of the unique powers and innates that Lure have only affect its space only, so you need the presence to lure the invaders in: without that lure being present, the invaders won't be enticed. Forsake Society is incredibly thematic: you can just imagine the invaders packing up and leaving their towns or cities and heading inwards, to the consternation of their fellow colonisers, that suddenly find empty towns and cities, and become afraid of what happened to them (represented by the fact that you only generate fear if there is a town/city left). Once there, the explorers meet unfortunate end by either beasts, or the land itself: accidental deaths, but ones that show the Island to be inhospitable and dangerous, building up fear as those explorers are never heard from again. Why you should play Lure It's a loving angler fish, but for invaders. You create these moshpit of deaths with countless tokens and then draw invaders towards them, to their eventual death. The thematic link between the powers and the spirit is incredible. Although termed to be of moderate complexity, I feel that Lure is actually relatively easy to play, and has a clear plan and strategy from the very start, without requiring too much additional help from drafted powers. Seriously, play it, the spirit owns. Tekopo fucked around with this message at 23:43 on Apr 6, 2023 |
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Apr 6, 2023 09:02
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I think if people want to switch things up it really helps to use the Thematic Board. It gives games a different tempo as different boards have varying numbers of lands so some of them have practically no desert or no wetlands or whatever. I think it really emphasizes the co-op nature of the game as Spirits have to glide toward each others land a lot earlier instead of just cleaning up the predictable messes at home. I guess it adds +3 difficulty? Typically we do 4-5 player games and we always start newbies on the Thematic Board with usually a Level 3 or maybe 4 adversary for a first go. I think winning about 1/2 the time is the sweet spot for a co-op for us at least.
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Apr 6, 2023 10:44
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I was the guy playing Finder alongside Tekopo, and after a rocky start I basically became his delivery service for invaders. Extremely fun game, would warp geography again.
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Apr 6, 2023 11:22
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I really want to try Ocean paired with Lure, but yeah, honestly I think pairing Lure with a pusher spirit like Finder or BoDaN makes the combo a lot stronger. I almost feel like Lure and Ocean almost compete in a way and aren't as strong together as people think. Do people have experience with pairing Lure/Ocean?
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Apr 6, 2023 11:26
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Another bonus of Lure that I didn't think before is that you are a weird frog-like thing.
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Apr 6, 2023 11:26
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Mr. Grapes! posted:I think if people want to switch things up it really helps to use the Thematic Board. The difficulty it adds because of the tempo changes sounds cool. The difficulty it adds by being completely illegible less so.
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Apr 6, 2023 12:45
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Quote still isn't edit
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Apr 6, 2023 12:45
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Moshpit is a good term! My friend and I call them Thunderdomes since with a good few JE spirits using badlands, we find ourselves using that strategy a lot. Also yeah my opposition to using thematic boards is the readability of them, I think the more realistic land/starting placements are neat. Gonna be starting a legacy campaign today I found on reddit just to see how it works out (link). Which is funny because the game night we’ve been playing at, a lot of folks have asked us if Spirit Island was a campaign game because we play it every week. Nope, just like playing the same game consistently instead of a new MWE every week.
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Apr 6, 2023 14:53
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Mr. Grapes! posted:I guess it adds +3 difficulty? You throw newbies into a Difficulty 8/9 game? 
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Apr 6, 2023 15:06
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I'll start rookies on at most a level 1 adversary on the standard board. Usually Sweden but definitely not something like France or England. In my experience they have enough on their plate trying to figure out how to play their spirit without having to deal with how adversaries break the rules to make the experience harder. Sure the game will probably be simple for me but you have to pay that price sometimes.
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Apr 6, 2023 15:23
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