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Drakyn posted:However, a tragic counterpoint: CS Lewis believed in angels and as we all are aware CS Lewis was wrong about literally (in the most factual and non-hyperbolic sense) everything ever. CS Lewis also wrote a book where one guy continues to get condemned to hell for not being able to accept that heaven would let in murderers because they repented on their death bed instead of them trying to be good people after loving up, so this checks out. Like, the guy gets to heaven after being in hell, discovers the guide he was appointed is a mass murderer (who God is suggested to have appointed, meaning this was probably all planned out and God knew the man would be horrified and disgusted by what he discovers) or something like that, and freaks out at what this has to mean for heaven and the sort of people who do and don't get in. People don't get in on merit of at least trying to follow some standard of empathic or compassionate morality but by submission to an unaccountable power that cares nothing for what people are actually going through. He then points out that it's not really good that matters but apologizing and bowing before the lord and despite his own flaws (he is in hell, remember, though this entire exchange makes the reasoning behind it suspect and more than a bit dubious as it comes off more on him not conforming to the expectations of the reigning power that is heaven than over any true even half hearted or faltering attempt at empathic morality) recognizes that this is kind of loving monstrous due to how it relegates the pain of the victims into not mattering in favor of an afterlife where it's entirely possible that victims can be held in hell and victimizers get to go to heaven. When he gets a choice between conforming by dropping his opinions and submitting to god in exchange for being let into heaven or going back to hell he promptly says "nah, i'ma choose hell" out of horror and disgust at what Heaven is even though it's heavily implied that god is going to murder and/or brutally torture everyone in hell (But of course it's their fault because they chose this, in a false dichotomy that ignores the choice of action on the one with actual power over these people.) at some point in the future. Condemning this guy to hell is treated as a moral and just thing because this guy couldn't comprehend god's forgiveness. In fact, he chooses it for himself and that's the moral of the story of why he's wrong. By choosing not to enter into a relationship with god he is being wrong because he...uh, has moral standards that exceed what heaven has? Which coincidentally forgets the victim (Incidentally, CS Lewis handwaves this massive boondoggle of an issue that blows his entire argument apart by saying that the murderer and their victim are friends now in the afterlife and they're over it which is just  given how abuse works.) in favor of an authoritarian power play than actual moral decency and empathy for fellow human beings who deserved to have a better life.Oh and anyone who has moral objections to this and doesn't want to go to a place like this gets to suffer unimaginable pain for eternity when god decides to let the sun rise in Hell or something like that. Which is just some cosmic horror story as 1984-esque authoritarian horror story stuff. Another guy also bizarrely gets excoriated for the wealth and material advantages that atheism brought him by one of god's converts/angels/whatever which is just ??? to me since I don't recall anyone ever getting a check for that? Which means it ultimately just comes off as some devotee of god who is a cultist making poo poo up about the people they're repeatedly victimizing to justify what they're going through in some sort of authoritarian horror show. The Great Divorce is a profoundly hosed up book when you start examining the implications behind it. Archonex fucked around with this message at 19:18 on Nov 22, 2022 |
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Nov 22, 2022 18:08
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How can we expect the angels to meet us face to face - til we have faces?
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Nov 22, 2022 18:52
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Dapper_Swindler posted:Probably not, neither are daemons though. Idk, it would be interesting if they were real and maybe they are but probably not. many people don't know this but daemon is pronounced dee·muhn just like the word demon.
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Nov 22, 2022 18:52
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Epic High Five posted:OP there is almost certainly no shortage of spiritually active people in D&D who would be happy to contribute to a discussion here but you're going to need to give a little more for them to work off of, such as what brought you to ask or your relevant background/experiences. It's a huge, huge topic. On the subject of guardian angels I recommend Revolt of the Angels by Anatole France, or if you just need a quick summary it is that they are deeply heretical and probably not the sort of thing anything gains by by having around in their life. Guardian angels are not heretical though, at least in the Catholic Church. Thomas Aquinas believed in them and multiple popes have made reference to them.
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Nov 22, 2022 20:31
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Koos Group posted:Guardian angels are not heretical though, at least in the Catholic Church. Thomas Aquinas believed in them and multiple popes have made reference to them. They are not heretical in concept, they are heretical in their behavior. Angels participating or leading in heretical deeds is the basis of much of the faith as practiced in its modern form, and we've even had heretic popes.
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Nov 22, 2022 21:23
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Epic High Five posted:They are not heretical in concept, they are heretical in their behavior. Angels participating or leading in heretical deeds is the basis of much of the faith as practiced in its modern form, and we've even had heretic popes. Do you have examples of heretical angels?
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Nov 22, 2022 21:51
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Koos Group posted:Do you have examples of heretical angels? I'm given to believe from the religious figures of my upbringing that Lucifer would qualify under the normal definition
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Nov 22, 2022 21:54
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Epic High Five posted:I'm given to believe from the religious figures of my upbringing that Lucifer would qualify under the normal definition Well, obviously, but you characterized either guardian angels in general or angels in general as deeply heretical so I'd like to see more of your reasoning for it.
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Nov 22, 2022 22:36
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Koos Group posted:Well, obviously, but you characterized either guardian angels in general or angels in general as deeply heretical so I'd like to see more of your reasoning for it. Check out the entry on The Bulgarian Heresy https://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/heresies.html e: This write-up on Milton's Paradise Lost is also on point https://www.jstor.org/stable/2707498 Bel Shazar fucked around with this message at 22:43 on Nov 22, 2022 |
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Nov 22, 2022 22:40
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Koos Group posted:Well, obviously, but you characterized either guardian angels in general or angels in general as deeply heretical so I'd like to see more of your reasoning for it. Well the source I cited, Revolt of the Angels by Anatole France, is a tale of how a guardian angel not only puts his charge in terrible peril, but then goes on to lead a revolt against heaven using the superior killing potential of the weapons of World War 1. Seems pretty much an open and shut case of heresy against God. In fact it was the angel's status as guardian that gave it access to the materials needed to sow doubt in his mind. In a more abstract sense, angels are messengers of God and the domain of personal relationships with man is reserved to God who is three parts. An angel in such a role can either be heretical (encroaching upon the domain of God, likely driven by hubris) or little more than a messenger. One may as well have a guardian postal worker.
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Nov 22, 2022 22:50
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Epic High Five posted:One may as well have a guardian postal worker. I think you'll find that it's better to have a guardian postal worker... https://www.nalc.org/community-service/carrier-heroes
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Nov 22, 2022 22:53
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Epic High Five posted:Well the source I cited, Revolt of the Angels by Anatole France, is a tale of how a guardian angel not only puts his charge in terrible peril, but then goes on to lead a revolt against heaven using the superior killing potential of the weapons of World War 1. Seems pretty much an open and shut case of heresy against God. In fact it was the angel's status as guardian that gave it access to the materials needed to sow doubt in his mind. Ah, I misunderstood that you were only summarizing the book.
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Nov 22, 2022 23:58
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Epic High Five posted:In a more abstract sense, angels are messengers of God and the domain of personal relationships with man is reserved to God who is three parts. An angel in such a role can either be heretical (encroaching upon the domain of God, likely driven by hubris) or little more than a messenger. One may as well have a guardian postal worker. I don't get this part. Surely people can have personal relationships with each other, right? So why can't angels, I don't know why that would be heretical. People can help each other, God can help people, but angels can't? Koos Group posted:Guardian angels are not heretical though, at least in the Catholic Church. Thomas Aquinas believed in them and multiple popes have made reference to them. If you have any sources I could read, throw them in the thread please! It looks like Aquinas said "On this road man is threatened by many dangers both from within and without, and therefore as guardians are appointed for men who have to pass by an unsafe road, so an angel is assigned to each man as long as he is a wayfarer." which sounds like a guardian angel and not heresy so that's neat.
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Nov 23, 2022 01:59
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Not everybody's Christian, FYI. For the people talking about "heretical" this and "heretical" that. My position is that the best angels are in the Torah because they're just messengers of God, they're just these dudes who can wrestle you half to death and that you won't know are out of the ordinary unless you either cross them or treat them really well - in the former case you might find yourself fire and brimstoned, in the latter God will spread your seed around (which maybe is too big of a deal - the patriarchs are depicted as figuratively wrestling with all this a lot). There's something very subtly sinister about that that later depictions like the weird stuff Ezekiel is smoking about just can't carry.
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Nov 23, 2022 06:09
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Not everybody's Christian, FYI. For the people talking about "heretical" this and "heretical" that. yeah this. i also always liked the muslim idea of the devil where he doesn't like god but has a bunch of rules that he has to follow and is basicaly just an extreamly hosed up prosecutor who will try to entrap you into doing bad poo poo but not directly tell you to do the actions. its more interesting then the evangelical literalism horse poo poo where satan is some magic anti god.
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Nov 25, 2022 16:59
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Oh, so Satan is a mod? I knew it! But are angels permabanned superstar posters then?
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Nov 25, 2022 17:22
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eXXon posted:Oh, so Satan is a mod? I knew it! But are angels permabanned superstar posters then? That would give credence to the Miltonian idea that it's better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven.
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Nov 25, 2022 17:24
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eXXon posted:Oh, so Satan is a mod? I knew it! But are angels permabanned superstar posters then? Now fit in demons and saints.
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Nov 25, 2022 17:32
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eXXon posted:Oh, so Satan is a mod? I knew it! But are angels permabanned superstar posters then? i think its more satan is an idiot king and angels are mods.
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Nov 25, 2022 17:40
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Captain_Maclaine posted:That would give credence to the Miltonian idea that it's better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven. The bit about reigning being worth the ambition is a much better line.
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Nov 25, 2022 22:46
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Dapper_Swindler posted:yeah this. i also always liked the muslim idea of the devil where he doesn't like god but has a bunch of rules that he has to follow and is basicaly just an extreamly hosed up prosecutor who will try to entrap you into doing bad poo poo but not directly tell you to do the actions. its more interesting then the evangelical literalism horse poo poo where satan is some magic anti god. Muslim devil likes God, he's just a particularly neat take on the sin of pride. After getting humanity all set up, God ordered the angels to bow before Man and serve their interests as they serve His. Iblis got real fuckin miffed about this, because he thought the prehuman days were really pretty good, and also divine angelic beings are way better than upjumped monkeys. After a couple circuits round the carousel where he flat refused to know his place and follow orders, God went "well okay then, I'm passing judgement, enjoy being severed from the light of my divine grace". Iblis responds "hold the gently caress on, you specifically promised humanity that none of them would suffer that hell-adjacent fate until the actual Day of Judgement. Surely it's unfair to not give me the same consideration?" God: "Eh, fair enough. Sentence postponed, we'll see how things are going in a couple eons when it's time for the Kingdom of Heaven." and so Iblis, rather than getting a clue in the intervening thousands / millions of years and apologizing and getting out of this jam, decided that he would devote himself to showing God that actually Iblis was right, God was wrong, and humans are just dumb primate vermin, by tempting them and messing with them and keeping a lovingly curated scrapbook of every time a human transgressed the divine will because if only he can show God Himself that He was wrong, Iblis will be back to being the favored creation and won't be cast out He doesn't want to overthrow God, he just wants to be right on the internet.
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Nov 25, 2022 23:19
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Not everybody's Christian, FYI. For the people talking about "heretical" this and "heretical" that. I guess if you want to stretch it a bit, the various minor gods in various flavors of Hinduism are basically angels - subordinate to the Big [mumbles a Number] and also components of the Big One, limited portfolio, mostly more involved in mortal lives within that portfolio normal brain: Michael is an angel big brain: ganesh is an angel E: galaxy brain: Yahweh is an angel
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Nov 25, 2022 23:48
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The only Angle I'll ever believe in.
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Nov 26, 2022 01:13
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Just more chaff to cut through when I finally Attack Heaven and Dethrone God.
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Nov 26, 2022 01:53
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Ball lighting would be a more interesting discussion given that there are actual scientific arguments on both sides of whether it exists or not, along with split evidence. Angels are just made up. Unless ball lighting is angels. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 29, 2022 05:18
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Rad Russian posted:
Clearly not, one is a red 6/1 with haste, trample, and sacrifice at end of turn, the other is a white 4/4 with flying and vigilance
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Nov 30, 2022 06:45
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Rad Russian posted:Ball lighting would be a more interesting discussion given that there are actual scientific arguments on both sides of whether it exists or not, along with split evidence. Angels are just made up. Unbelievably lame probe that's transparently just for insufficient deference to Christianity. Nowhere else would the person disputing an existential proclamation (angels exist) bear the burden of proof.
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Dec 1, 2022 17:16
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How exactly does one support the argument that angels don't exist?
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Dec 2, 2022 01:53
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OwlFancier posted:How exactly does one support the argument that angels don't exist? I know this is a joke thread and all but if it wasn't the burden of proof tends to be on the person making the positive claim, not on those questioning that claim, particularly in the absence of any real reason to believe it.
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Dec 2, 2022 01:59
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No I'm asking sincerely, if asserting that they aren't real is an unsupported argument then I would like to know how the moderation thinks it should be supported? I would concur that I do not think it needs to be in much the same way that I do not think the position that unicorns aren't real needs to be supported.
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Dec 2, 2022 02:02
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OwlFancier posted:No I'm asking sincerely, if asserting that they aren't real is an unsupported argument then I would like to know how the moderation thinks it should be supported? I would concur that I do not think it needs to be in much the same way that I do not think the position that unicorns aren't real needs to be supported. Ah, gotcha. In that case I wholeheartedly agree, it is odd that one would need to provide a supported argument on such a subject or many others like it.
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Dec 2, 2022 02:18
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Captain_Maclaine posted:I know this is a joke thread and all but if it wasn't the burden of proof tends to be on the person making the positive claim, not on those questioning that claim, particularly in the absence of any real reason to believe it. its a joke thread but i love weird stupid angel and daemon bullshit. i love how tons of weird goons of the early enlightenment wrote giant tomes with summoning patterns and poo poo for daemons that would like be bound to them and poo poo also what the would do and stuff. if i remember correctly, alot of it was sorta based on very very old jewish mystisim and such but then got sorta Christianized. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_demons_in_the_Ars_Goetia  baal is just king charles.  stolas is just an owl with long legs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lesser_Key_of_Solomon#Ars_Goetia Dapper_Swindler fucked around with this message at 04:28 on Dec 4, 2022 |
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Dec 4, 2022 04:25
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Dapper_Swindler posted:its a joke thread but i love weird stupid angel and daemon bullshit. i love how tons of weird goons of the early enlightenment wrote giant tomes with summoning patterns and poo poo for daemons that would like be bound to them and poo poo also what the would do and stuff. if i remember correctly, alot of it was sorta based on very very old jewish mystisim and such but then got sorta Christianized. Marchosias appears as a winged, fire-breathing she-wolf, but will take a "more agreeable form" if asked. This more agreeable form is just a dude. I've seen no explanation for the gender change.  I keep hoping Helluva Boss includes Buer  I'd love to see how they animate him. Blue Footed Booby fucked around with this message at 06:42 on Dec 4, 2022 |
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Dec 4, 2022 06:39
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Blue Footed Booby posted:Marchosias appears as a winged, fire-breathing she-wolf, but will take a "more agreeable form" if asked. This more agreeable form is just a dude. I've seen no explanation for the gender change. i mean i always take on the belief of high order/hapsburg/royal daemons kinda have various forms they like and will take them depending on situation or whatever. also do daemons even have physical sex, maybe they are like ALL gender. also yeah its all bullshit but its fun. yeah, i too like Vivian's interpretation, hence the avatar. i will say her idea of hell is alot like how i viewed it. just kinda of a shittier earth where everyone is an rear end in a top hat and various other creatures live there and its kinda just sucky and violent/exploitive. also i feel like if humanity has any agency there, we have probably already conquered parts of it. Dapper_Swindler fucked around with this message at 06:49 on Dec 4, 2022 |
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Dec 4, 2022 06:44
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Dapper_Swindler posted:i will say her idea of hell is alot like how i viewed it. just kinda of a shittier earth where everyone is an rear end in a top hat and various other creatures live there and its kinda just sucky and violent/exploitive. also i feel like if humanity has any agency there, we have probably already conquered parts of it. Her version sounds like Earth
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Dec 4, 2022 13:10
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Bel Shazar posted:Her version sounds like Earth Yeah well, I mean it makes sense, also pretty sure Clive barkers hell is similar. Dapper_Swindler fucked around with this message at 13:14 on Dec 4, 2022 |
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Dec 4, 2022 13:12
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Angels in Old Testament: Literally all we do is either gently caress poo poo up or warn you that we're about to gently caress poo poo up if you don't shape up motherfucker Angels in New Testament: We're nice now, be not afraid, we sing and like Jesus and all Angels in Revelations: PSYCH BITCH
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Dec 4, 2022 16:17
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DarkCrawler posted:Angels in Old Testament: Literally all we do is either gently caress poo poo up or warn you that we're about to gently caress poo poo up if you don't shape up motherfucker revelations is fun because its basically the mushroom visions of some exiled dude or one of his disciples that mostly about how much poo poo Diocletian or Nero sucks and how jesus will kick the poo poo out of them.
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Dec 4, 2022 17:04
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Check out https://www.unsongbook.com OP. Great fiction story that pulls heavily from the mythology of the Torah/Bible and features angels based on the same. Random excerpt: quote:“HELLO,” said the archangel.
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Dec 4, 2022 19:03
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Dapper_Swindler posted:revelations is fun because its basically the mushroom visions of some exiled dude or one of his disciples that mostly about how much poo poo Diocletian or Nero sucks and how jesus will kick the poo poo out of them. God wrote an really bloody, grim dark and exciting magnum opus that became a real cult classic, then his hippie son and his weird friend Paul did a radically different sequel that didn't really hit off with the old fans but got way bigger new audiences. Though Jesus probably shouldn't have let even his weirder boyfriend write the last chapter, he was clearly on hardcore narcotics. (Also it was Domitian who did suck poo poo if you were a Roman Senator or someone else who didn't think Domitian was literally God, otherwise actually kinda awesome) D-Pad posted:Check out https://www.unsongbook.com OP. Great fiction story that pulls heavily from the mythology of the Torah/Bible and features angels based on the same. It also highlights how God is kinda the biggest antisemite around by the really weird mind games he has with the Jewish people and their rabbis according to their own traditions DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 13:48 on Dec 5, 2022 |
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Dec 5, 2022 13:42
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