|
Weka posted:It's ok to compare things. It's even ok to point out similarities two things share when one of those things is good and the other bad. In this case I was making it clear that I do not consider the perpetrator being a neo-nazi or white supremacist a defining quality in whether or not something counts as terrorism. For instance I do not consider your posts to be terrorism despite your hamburger brains.
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2023 05:14
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 29, 2024 17:40 |
|
|
one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2023 05:15
|
|
|
i think obama said that
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2023 05:16
|
|
|
paul_soccer12 posted:James Mason also did time in prison for child porn Then later he was arrested for raping a child (acquitted) who he subsequently stalked and threatened with a gun, which got him back in jail for a few years. Pretty hosed up guy, imho
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2023 05:21
|
|
|
James Mason lives/lived like a mile from me
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2023 05:35
|
|
|
Hatebag posted:That was an interesting article The SPLC seems to be using a similar definition to the one you posted, something like illegally using violence for political ends. As are these nazis. As well as being so broad as to be all but useless, this sort of definition is used by the west to smear it's enemies. I think for practical discussions, especially from a leftist perspective, we need a narrower definition. Have you read the Turner diaries? I haven't but I just read the plot synopsis on wiki and it looks to me like the white supremacists in it started an insurgency and only after the partial collapse of the state did fear become a tool. There seems to me to be a useful distinction to be made between the sort of white supremacist who is happy with non-whites being second class citizens and those who seek genocide against them and a whites only society. The former can easily support the USA's government, but the later see it's destruction as necessary to achieve their goals. If the Turner Diaries is considered a roadmap, it doesn't say use terror to overthrow the state but overthrow the state then use terror to spark genocide. As to Mason only supporting others attacking the state because it will sow fear in white people, it doesn't seem to be supported by the article. "He thought, therefore, that acts of murder and other violence would help create enough social chaos to destabilize the system. He also started cheering on armed attacks by Communists, as well as black and other revolutionary racial nationalists, which were common in the 1970s and 1980s. Anything that tried to take the system down was good. If Communists and police shot it out in the streets, all the better. Amid the chaos, the Nazis would have an opportunity to mobilize the white masses and take power." Anyway, this is a good chat and I'm glad it's motivating me to learn more about these fuckwits and their beliefs.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2023 05:57
|
|
|
TenementFunster posted:it is very dumb to compare resisting foreign invasion to trying to turn the power off to a major city because you have racial hatred for most of its residents. doing crimes that put people in danger on the basis of racial hatred is terrorism. you are making a very stupid and meaningless distinction. How would you define terrorism?
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2023 06:00
|
|
|
Weka posted:How would you define terrorism? how about you?
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2023 09:57
|
|
|
I'm not sure that it has to be criminal or that they have to be scared for their safety particularly, just scared in general, but otherwise we broadly agree. It's pretty distinct to "doing crimes that put people in danger on the basis of racial hatred" which is much broader in some ways, like it would include a bunch of conventional wars.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2023 10:24
|
|
|
Weka posted:The SPLC seems to be using a similar definition to the one you posted, something like illegally using violence for political ends. As are these nazis. As well as being so broad as to be all but useless, this sort of definition is used by the west to smear it's enemies. I think for practical discussions, especially from a leftist perspective, we need a narrower definition. I don't think leftists need new definitions of words that are different than the usual definitions. That kinda stuff just makes it harder to communicate. Here's the oxford definition of terrorism: the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims. They include the word unlawful specifically as a cutout for war, cops, and governmental actions in general. And that quote you pulled contains this: quote:Amid the chaos, the Nazis would have an opportunity to mobilize the white masses and take power. How are they mobilizing the white masses without fear? Are the whites' manchurian candidate trigger phrases going to be activated and cause them to do genocide? No, they think chaos leads to fear leads to nazis in power. Which is similar to how the original nazis took power electorally amidst a coordinated wave of terror and false flag attacks I've read a few pages of the turner diaries. It's just poorly written garbage so it's a waste of time. The synopsis is fine. It seems like the main problem you have with calling nazis terrorists is that this would mean that any violent revolution or resistance is terrorism. But if terrorism is violence targeting civilians then that probably doesn't include revolutionary violence. John brown attacked an armory to get weapons. Not a terrorist. Mcveigh blew up a building to start a race war. Terrorist Iraqi resistance targeted invading imperial forces. Not terrorists People with power are necessarily going to call anyone who opposes then terrorists, though, so I don't know what you can do about that
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2023 14:42
|
|
|
I don't know how much I buy "doing propaganda of the deed to freak people out to start a race war" as a political aim in reality. Maybe what they think they're doing is revolutionary violence which could be understood as terrorism to everyone else/the status quo but to what degree is just having or imagining a sort-of political motive translate into a political aim? They're not acting on the behalf of a political project in any meaningful sense. All the atomwaffens and the bases put together don't have a political valence, there is no mass political line behind explicit race war. If I go shoot up a grocery store and as I'm being thrown into the swat van tell the cops "actually I did this because of Politics" it goes from mass murder or stochastic violence to ~terrorism~? It's a weird thing to want to look into these people's hearts and minds to figure out the degree to which what they did was bad rather than just look at the explicit material conditions and consequences. don't know! think this is pretty thin gruel and that ultimately it doesn't matter because "terrorism" is a hazy definition in the best case and really the only reason people throw it around post 9/11 is to try to punish their political enemies (or a representative thereof) more.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2023 22:10
|
|
|
that said, if these sorts of attacks are intentionally stoked by the feds in order to escalate domestic tensions to retrench political power I'd listen to arguments about classifying that as terrorism, especially because I think that would rightly disassociate the system's violence from the people the violence is being done to. The connotation of terrorism is that it's done to nations as a singular whole somehow, which I think is a pretty dumb way to think about it.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2023 22:15
|
|
|
Weka posted:we broadly agree Pentecoastal Elites posted:They're not acting on the behalf of a political project in any meaningful sense
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2023 22:25
|
|
|
the ultimate goal of attomwaffen is to nuke major american cities
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2023 22:27
|
|
|
If you wanna determine whether they're terrorists or just killers you have to look at their motivations because knowing their motivations is necessary to determine whether it's terrorism. Since we can't crack their heads open and see what's inside we have to rely on what they say and what the things that inspired them say. Like i said earlier, the powerful will just describe anyone who opposes them as terrorists.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2023 22:39
|
|
|
Hatebag posted:If you wanna determine whether they're terrorists or just killers you have to look at their motivations because knowing their motivations is necessary to determine whether it's terrorism. Since we can't crack their heads open and see what's inside we have to rely on what they say and what the things that inspired them say.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2023 22:41
|
|
|
I think that's included under "rely on what they say "
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2023 22:42
|
|
|
atomwaffen got broken by a loser death cult from the boonies, they are not a threat to anyone but their own comrades
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2023 23:00
|
|
|
TenementFunster posted:they think they are. it's their political project. white supremacist violence is an organic movement in the US and always has been. Hatebag posted:If you wanna determine whether they're terrorists or just killers you have to look at their motivations because knowing their motivations is necessary to determine whether it's terrorism. Since we can't crack their heads open and see what's inside we have to rely on what they say and what the things that inspired them say. so is "terrorism" just synonymous with "political violence"? if so why even use it? I really think people, after 9/11, people feel like terrorism means "extra evil" and if you don't say something is terrorism you're saying that it's not that bad actually and that makes you a bad nasty guy we all have to hate I don't buy that fantastical political projects or personal intentions a terrorist make. If I shoot up a movie theater because I'm hosed up and want to suicide by cop but my manifesto says that I'm doing this to bring about world communism, I don't think that makes me a terrorist by any definition that is useful for anyone. like no poo poo atomwaffen wants race war and the establishment of a white ethnostate but the degree to which that is a politically salient project is essentially nil. They're not acting on behalf of a government or power structure (probably) or mass movement or anything than some psychopaths who figured out how to use discord, and I just don't buy that that constitutes a political movement with any real weight. If "terrorism" as a word has any utility it should be along the lines of violence against a people to induce fear towards a political end and "start rahowa" might as well be "initiate the second coming" or "commune with the mothership" or any number of other totally fantastical ends. again if terrorism means anything other than REALLY BAD and you gotta call it REALL BAD or you're secretly a bad guy!!! "politically inspired stochastic violence" isn't it imo, even if that's what people online mean by it
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2023 23:02
|
|
|
Pentecoastal Elites posted:so is "terrorism" just synonymous with "political violence"? if so why even use it?
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2023 23:05
|
|
|
Tbc none of these nazis are a larger threat than their immediate targets because they're all morons without any larger scale plans that make any kind of sense and they're mostly being entrapped by the feds. Whether the feds are intentionally allowing some of them to commit attacks as part of a years of lead style op is up for speculation, though.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2023 23:06
|
|
|
it is a crime to openly call for and work toward the abolition of an existing state power structure. you may, if you get caught, be persecuted, attacked, tortured, killed. you will even be called mean names but arguing over the nomenclature and specific semiotics of those mean names is some real loser poo poo
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2023 23:08
|
|
|
Pentecoastal Elites posted:so is "terrorism" just synonymous with "political violence"? if so why even use it? I really think people, after 9/11, people feel like terrorism means "extra evil" and if you don't say something is terrorism you're saying that it's not that bad actually and that makes you a bad nasty guy we all have to hate Terrorism means political violence by non-state actors. Whether those actors are capable of accomplishing their political goals through terrorism is irrelevant to the definition of the word.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2023 23:10
|
|
|
and political violence means as long as they or anyone else can say or imply its politically motivated it is, so terrorism is just synonymous with all violence that doesn't spring from, like, specific untreatable mental illnesses
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2023 23:14
|
|
|
Hatebag posted:Tbc none of these nazis are a larger threat than their immediate targets because they're all morons without any larger scale plans that make any kind of sense and they're mostly being entrapped by the feds. Whether the feds are intentionally allowing some of them to commit attacks as part of a years of lead style op is up for speculation, though.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2023 23:15
|
|
|
Pentecoastal Elites posted:and political violence means as long as they or anyone else can say or imply its politically motivated it is, so terrorism is just synonymous with all violence that doesn't spring from, like, specific untreatable mental illnesses Yeah, terrorism is a pretty meaningless word mostly used for propaganda purposes but it is correct to use it to describe nazis shooting up substations or the mall if they're doing that in service of a political goal
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2023 23:18
|
|
|
TenementFunster posted:when you care more about your pet conspiracy theories than the actual people who have been and could be harmed/killed by nazi terrorists, it is time to log off and talk to real people who aren't just other sadbrains weirdos on the internet. when did you become such a little bitch
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2023 23:19
|
|
|
TenementFunster posted:when you care more about your pet conspiracy theories than the actual people who have been and could be harmed/killed by nazi terrorists, it is time to log off and talk to real people who aren't just other sadbrains weirdos on the internet. Not clear on what you're saying here. You think i don't care about people getting killed by nazis?
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2023 23:19
|
|
|
maybe im thinking of a different poster who used to post good idk
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2023 23:20
|
|
|
Aha! Time for the thread to descend into a pointless slap fight! Have at you!
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2023 23:21
|
|
|
Hatebag posted:Aha! Time for the thread to descend into a pointless slap fight! Have at you! cspam serves no other purpose and indeed cannot
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2023 23:22
|
|
|
TenementFunster posted:when you care more about your pet conspiracy theories than the actual people who have been and could be harmed/killed by nazi terrorists, it is time to log off and talk to real people who aren't just other sadbrains weirdos on the internet. ummmm sweaty?? its time to TOUCH GRASS so you can be more WORRIED about these FRIGGING FASCISTS!!!!
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2023 23:27
|
|
|
croup coughfield posted:when did you become such a little bitch Pentecoastal Elites posted:ummmm sweaty?? its time to TOUCH GRASS so you can be more WORRIED about these FRIGGING FASCISTS!!!!
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2023 23:28
|
|
|
if theres one thing I believe with all my heart its being performatively concerned about it on something awful dot com will put an end to their evil ways once and for all
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2023 23:30
|
|
|
Pentecoastal Elites posted:if theres one thing I believe with all my heart its being performatively concerned about it on something awful dot com will put an end to their evil ways once and for all
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2023 23:33
|
|
|
if only hatebag would log off and become worried about this instead of spouting disinformatzkaya on the forums, perhaps peace could be achieved.............
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2023 23:35
|
|
|
Never!
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2023 23:35
|
|
|
Hatebag posted:Never! this is terrorism, too me
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2023 23:36
|
|
|
Anime Bernie Bro posted:Atomwaffen is a front for a right-wing satanist cult called the Order of Nine Angles. The upper echelons of the organization don't actually believe in racism, they just use racism as a means to spread evil and despair throughout the world. There was a tipping point when a group of higher-ups in atomwaffen (as much as you can be a "higher up" in a by-design terrorist cell network) down in Florida died. There were four of them living in an apartment together, and one of them converted to Islam and murdered the other three. After that, the Iron Gates folks took over, which pissed off the remaining Atomwaffen people because their ideology was so insane it made the siege inspired folks of Atomwaffen look reasonable. Atomwaffen: Commit terrorist acts until the US is destabilized, at which point the US balkanizes, a race war occurs, and whites emerge victorious. The rest of the turner diaries is mostly revenge porn (day of the rope, killing miscegenators, so on) Iron Lieber 666: Commit terrorist acts until the US is destabilized, at which point the US balkanizes, a race war occurs, and the ensuing chaos tears a hole open in reality allowing the Gates people to hitch a ride on a comet to form a fourth reich with a reincarnated Hitler on a terraformed Venus.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2023 23:39
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 29, 2024 17:40 |
|
|
Sestze posted:There was a tipping point when a group of higher-ups in atomwaffen (as much as you can be a "higher up" in a by-design terrorist cell network) down in Florida died. There were four of them living in an apartment together, and one of them converted to Islam and murdered the other three.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2023 23:47
|
|