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Jehde posted:Was the first time we saw adult Knives in Stampede when he was wearing his oversized hood cloak and playing manic piano? Think so. They went all in with tortured villain angle and damned if he doesn't love hamming it up. I refuse to believe he wasn't influenced by his media consumption with how he conducts himself.
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Apr 18, 2023 08:26
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Stampede Knives definitely has that "be quiet and listen to what I say, because I know what's best for you" vibe. I think he really does care for Vash and the other plants, but he'll still use and manipulate them to achieve his end goal. Ends justify the means and all that. You see this a bit in the manga, but not really to the same lengths, like when he tries to prevent Vash from using his powers once Knives learns about the hair darkening/death thing. He also keeps Vash locked up for like a year using Legato's powers. And then when Knives sees the memory of a plant smiling at a mom and child, he just kind of brushes that off. I think some of the plants are on board with his merging idea to kill humans, but clearly not all of them hate humans. I think he's an interesting character in all versions (okay, maybe not so much in 98) because you can see where he comes from regarding his fears and desires to free the plants, but he goes about everything in the completely wrong way.
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Apr 18, 2023 23:11
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He's not as interesting in the 98 anime but I feel the show does a good job of reflecting his personality in the actions and words of the Gung Ho Guns. He's very much a boss antagonist that you only learn about through the way he frightens and motivates others. It's not as strong in the personal dynamic between himself and Vash but it's effective at making him a frightening enemy.
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Apr 18, 2023 23:20
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Flopsy posted:In the manga we at least have much better set up of why they turned out the way they did. For example Vash spent 80 years traveling with Knives before he couldn't stand it any more and left him. Doesn't Vash wait around for like a year when Knives tells him "hold up I'll be back" and goes into one of the SEEDS wrecks to build the Angel Arms revolvers? I've not read the manga but I recall this even being a detail in the '98 anime.
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Apr 18, 2023 23:27
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Mister Speaker posted:Doesn't Vash wait around for like a year when Knives tells him "hold up I'll be back" and goes into one of the SEEDS wrecks to build the Angel Arms revolvers? I've not read the manga but I recall this even being a detail in the '98 anime. I don't remember the specifics because I watched the 98' anime a long time ago and only read up a bit on the manga. So I'm not sure where one event connects into the other. But I know Vash flat out left him when Knives started getting violent to the point even he couldn't deal with his temper tantrums any more. That gun forging event may have happened while they were traveling together because I think he had the gun when he left.
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Apr 19, 2023 06:36
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Yeah, he sits outside for an entire year waiting for Knives. Immediately after Knives shows up again, he tests out his Angel Arm and says "Hey bro check this out, I made these to help with our genocide." He gives the silver one to Vash, then Vash shoots him in the leg, takes both guns and runs off. (In the manga, the gun doesn't need an origin because it's just a regular revolver that happens to look cool.)
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Apr 19, 2023 22:54
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Knives isn't super deep in 98 but he's appropriately imposing I think because you start going up the ramp in power with the gung-ho guns and it becomes clear that they're either psychotically devoted to him or utterly pants shittingly terrified into submission by him and I think the visuals/expressions/writing sell it really well. The big thing in 98 that never made a lick of sense to me was what the gently caress knives actually did on the seeds ship with all the skullduggery. It's really interesting drama but I have no idea how he orchestrated it without him just having the ability to skip all of that crap to get to the murdering.
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Apr 20, 2023 16:50
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KORNOLOGY fucked around with this message at 12:59 on Apr 21, 2023 |
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Apr 20, 2023 19:36
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Fabricated posted:Knives isn't super deep in 98 but he's appropriately imposing I think because you start going up the ramp in power with the gung-ho guns and it becomes clear that they're either psychotically devoted to him or utterly pants shittingly terrified into submission by him and I think the visuals/expressions/writing sell it really well. I kinda do feel for people like Midvalley. Like imagine you've caught the attention of what seems like your average outlaw boss but turns out he's actually a biblically accurate angel with a God/brother complex and he's going to throw you into the woodchipper to try and get his twin back. Oh and you have NO options to back out or escape you're just hosed. I know Knives is using the Gung-Ho guns to prove his point about how horrible humanity is to Vash but uh--you're literally either using people who are so mentally ill they don't care if they live or die and strong arming the rest into it. It doesn't make for a very compelling point is all. But then again Knives isn't much better at arguing his ideals than Vash is. He's just gotten so good at gaslighting he's drat well gaslit himself.
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Apr 21, 2023 02:37
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The moments when the Gung-Ho Guns feel like a gathering of people who have experienced the worst of the worst of human cruelty and thus flock to the person out to end it all is often that set of characters at their most compelling, but it really doesn't come through all that often. It's a shame because it's an angle that invites pity more than anything and plays excellently with Vash's character.
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Apr 21, 2023 19:00
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I definitely feel like Legato is gonna come in with the Gung-Ho Guns for season 2 while Knives is out of it for a while. He better show up because I'm still salty at how little Legato actually did this season.
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Apr 21, 2023 19:21
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Without the heavy Catholic overtones, I am super interested in how they approach themes like mercy and grace. Or, maybe they don't do anything religious at all.
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Apr 22, 2023 11:20
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KORNOLOGY posted:Without the heavy Catholic overtones, I am super interested in how they approach themes like mercy and grace. Or, maybe they don't do anything religious at all. I figured they'll approach it the same way Evangelion approaches christianity. Maybe with bit less nihilism and tang tho.
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Apr 24, 2023 23:02
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Flopsy posted:I figured they'll approach it the same way Evangelion approaches christianity. As a shorthand for "weird foreigner stuff you don't understand"?
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Apr 25, 2023 04:21
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I mean, Nightow is still quite closely involved in Stampede, so I'd be surprised if all the Christian elements get discarded.
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Apr 25, 2023 11:44
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Out of curiosity, did Nightow ever do any other manga or anime series before or after Trigun?
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Apr 25, 2023 12:21
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Gungrave and Block Blockade Battlefront are his other two series I'd mark as being notable. Gungrave is more just his character designs though.
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Apr 25, 2023 12:28
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Darth Walrus posted:I mean, Nightow is still quite closely involved in Stampede, so I'd be surprised if all the Christian elements get discarded. We already got the windmill crosses, the Eye of Michael, and a few Old Testament references, so they're definitely still there. ETA: Forgot about the explicit Armageddon reference. Maera Sior fucked around with this message at 13:32 on Apr 25, 2023 |
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Apr 25, 2023 13:28
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Also English dub Stampede Knives explicitly going "you think you're Jesus don't you????" to Vash.
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Apr 26, 2023 02:13
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BBB is still ongoing (Though it has now swapped magazines twice).
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Apr 26, 2023 02:51
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Defiance Industries posted:As a shorthand for "weird foreigner stuff you don't understand"? Exactly. hopeandjoy posted:Also English dub Stampede Knives explicitly going "you think you're Jesus don't you????" to Vash. Well he kinda is, he's just making it explicit in this case. Arc Hammer posted:Gungrave and Block Blockade Battlefront are his other two series I'd mark as being notable. Gungrave is more just his character designs though. gently caress me I played Gungrave back in the day and it had so much promise but just kinda of discarded it after two games. Can't say the main character had much in the way of a personality either seeing as he was undead. Baller design though.
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Apr 26, 2023 02:53
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Flopsy posted:Exactly. Did I hallucinate all the explicit biblical analogies? How is it in any way like Evangelion? ETA: Just because the anime don't seem keen on organized religion doesn't make it not clear what it's doing. Knives has set himself up as an explicitly messianic figure, down to wandering the desert barefoot in robes. Knives and Vash are cast out of the Garden of Eden/lose their innocence (the ship's garden) upon receiving the forbidden knowledge (Tesla's existence). In the last episode, Knives and Vash literally create wings ascend to the heavens and and fall back down after creating a pillar of light (as Zazie refers to it). This is not at all subtle or haphazard. Maera Sior fucked around with this message at 05:10 on Apr 26, 2023 |
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Apr 26, 2023 04:56
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Maera Sior posted:Did I hallucinate all the explicit biblical analogies? How is it in any way like Evangelion? I don't disagree with any of that. Both series use Christianity as thematic flavoring. Crosses are prominent alongside biblical angel imagery and the discussion of whether or not the human race is worthy of even existing. But japanese people tend to look at christianity through the same lens most western media views their own religions (Shintoism, Buddhism, etc.). Not exactly following along with the plot wholesale but cherry picking elements because they think they're cool allegories. I guess I should mention I don't have problem with any of that I actually think it's a neat juxtaposition. It's funny to me how local religions are given more respect and deference but foreign ones are considered unique and "weird". Then again Japan hasn't been a very religious country in a very long time due to it's role in early peasant uprisings. I.E. The lower classes believe if their cause is just they're going to go to heaven anyway so why not rebel and against the decadent nobility? So yeah the shogunate put the kibosh on that a long time ago. Mostly by bribing buddhist and shinto temples to behave themselves and knock it off with all the land grab demands. Flopsy fucked around with this message at 06:43 on Apr 26, 2023 |
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Apr 26, 2023 06:39
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Flopsy posted:I don't disagree with any of that. Both series use Christianity as thematic flavoring. Crosses are prominent alongside biblical angel imagery and the discussion of whether or not the human race is worthy of even existing. But japanese people tend to look at christianity through the same lens most western media views their own religions (Shintoism, Buddhism, etc.). Not exactly following along with the plot wholesale but cherry picking elements because they think they're cool allegories. I guess I should mention I don't have problem with any of that I actually think it's a neat juxtaposition. It's funny to me how local religions are given more respect and deference but foreign ones are considered unique and "weird". Then again Japan hasn't been a very religious country in a very long time due to it's role in early peasant uprisings. I.E. The lower classes believe if their cause is just they're going to go to heaven anyway so why not rebel and against the decadent nobility? So yeah the shogunate put the kibosh on that a long time ago. Mostly by bribing buddhist and shinto temples to behave themselves and knock it off with all the land grab demands. See, I think of Vinland Saga as having Christianity thematic flavoring. While the characters have varying thoughts about it, it's held at a remove by placing it in a historic context. There are also aspects that seem fairly baffling, like some concepts just aren't translating (the "What is love?" section for instance). It's there, it's interacted with, but it doesn't seem to have come from a personal understanding or be intended as a guide. Trigun (it its various forms) is deeply involved in asking what is sin, what can be forgiven, what is redemption, what is faith, what is free will, etc. Different pieces are emphasized across the different versions, but they're all working with some core concepts of Christianity. That imagery informs the audience on how we're supposed to see the characters and story (Vash is Jesus, he physically suffers to save others; Knives is a messiah and/or a cult leader, depending on the side you view him from). Evangelion doesn't even try to be coherent (even outside of the religious imagery) and just uses the names and a small handful of images because....why not? There's no examination of faith, of the role of religion in any facet of society, of what religion says about any aspect of the human existence. I love Evangelion for how it communicates emotional states, but boy is it a mess in other ways. Fans twisted themselves into knots for decades trying to make sense of the religious...garnish, I'll say. It doesn't actually inform the audience on how to consider the characters or the plot. Equivocating Trigun Stampede and Evangelion is meaningless because they're so far apart in what they're intending the imagery to achieve. If I had to pick another show with religious imagery as a decent point of comparison, it would probably be Land of the Lustrous. There's pretty obviously a lot of stuff that's going over my head, but I can build theories around one of the religious themes it's working with (Buddhist enlightenment) and use it to inform my understanding of the plot and characters (the Lunarians want to be freed from suffering, Sensei is a sentient prayer wheel robot that sometimes malfunctions and also maybe refuses to do his job).
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Apr 26, 2023 08:14
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Trigun and BBB both have strong and serious Christian elements. Nightow is either a believer or at the very least has a significant academic interest in the religion.
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Apr 26, 2023 09:25
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Maera Sior posted:See, I think of Vinland Saga as having Christianity thematic flavoring. While the characters have varying thoughts about it, it's held at a remove by placing it in a historic context. There are also aspects that seem fairly baffling, like some concepts just aren't translating (the "What is love?" section for instance). It's there, it's interacted with, but it doesn't seem to have come from a personal understanding or be intended as a guide. Okay I understand your point better now. I do think Trigun handles its christian themes with more class and meaningful narrative but I thought we were referring to more surface level comparisons. But I will fully admit I am biased in this particular argument because I don't really care for Evangelion that much so I can't honestly say I'm fair and balanced here.
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Apr 26, 2023 21:06
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Flopsy posted:Okay I understand your point better now. I do think Trigun handles its christian themes with more class and meaningful narrative but I thought we were referring to more surface level comparisons. But I will fully admit I am biased in this particular argument because I don't really care for Evangelion that much so I can't honestly say I'm fair and balanced here. This has actually been a really interesting conversation for me because I've had to go back and try to articulate why I think certain properties are doing more with their religious thematic flavoring than others before I start writing. Given that my background is in science, this is not the most intuitive process.
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Apr 26, 2023 22:15
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i have enjoyed reading this conversation
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Apr 26, 2023 22:18
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Maera Sior posted:This has actually been a really interesting conversation for me because I've had to go back and try to articulate why I think certain properties are doing more with their religious thematic flavoring than others before I start writing. Given that my background is in science, this is not the most intuitive process. Can't say it's a specialty of mine either but I am a writer and I do have to think about this kind of stuff WAY more than on average. I think lot of series tend to pick up on these certain narrative tropes with varying degrees of success. A lot of it comes down to the struggle of successfully portraying someone's commitment to their morals and what happens when they're increasingly tested. Trigun would be a success story I think in that in the end Vash managed to come out the other end more or less intact. While in other cases I think the writer's sometimes completely lose the plot or the intent of the character. Like Zack Snyder's take on Superman is rife with Jesus imagery but he misses the point of what Superman is supposed to represent so hard it gets almost comical.
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Apr 26, 2023 22:25
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Flopsy posted:Can't say it's a specialty of mine either but I am a writer and I do have to think about this kind of stuff WAY more than on average. I think lot of series tend to pick up on these certain narrative tropes with varying degrees of success. A lot of it comes down to the struggle of successfully portraying someone's commitment to their morals and what happens when they're increasingly tested. Trigun would be a success story I think in that in the end Vash managed to come out the other end more or less intact. While in other cases I think the writer's sometimes completely lose the plot or the intent of the character. Like Zack Snyder's take on Superman is rife with Jesus imagery but he misses the point of what Superman is supposed to represent so hard it gets almost comical. As one of my hobbies, I have spent a number of years writing copy for writers to have very specific discussions. Along the way we usually wind up having the discussions ourselves, but there's usually a process by which we make sure we are talking in the same direction first. That's a little harder with asynchronous conversation. I will always like stories where a character's morals get tested by the situations they find themselves in. Watching them struggle and come out the other side stronger, or fail in a very understandable way, makes for some very compelling stories.
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Apr 26, 2023 23:08
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But yeah, Blood Blockade Battlefront is a useful companion piece for Nightow and Christianity, especially when Klaus gets the limelight. All that cross imagery around him isn't just for show - he tends to be virtuous and heroic in specifically Christian ways, and his stories tend to touch more closely than most on Christian philosophical/ethical quandaries. I'm not familiar enough with Gungrave to say much about that, but the imagery around Beyond the Grave makes it reasonable to guess that he's another important vehicle for Nightow to use Christian ethics as a narrative inspiration.
Darth Walrus fucked around with this message at 23:24 on Apr 26, 2023 |
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Apr 26, 2023 23:21
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I hope that if/when Legato comes back for S2, he still ultimately ends up getting obliterated by Knives for daring to try and kill Vash.
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Apr 27, 2023 00:04
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Maera Sior posted:As one of my hobbies, I have spent a number of years writing copy for writers to have very specific discussions. Along the way we usually wind up having the discussions ourselves, but there's usually a process by which we make sure we are talking in the same direction first. That's a little harder with asynchronous conversation. Oh absolutely. That' a major vertebrae in the backbone of storytelling right there in and of itself. Bloody Pom posted:I hope that if/when Legato comes back for S2, he still ultimately ends up getting obliterated by Knives for daring to try and kill Vash. I too want to see that. Tragedy is no matter how many time Knives tells him he never quite gets the point is not to kill Vash. In a sick way I think he views him as a rival for his attentions hence the "well once he's gone clearly he'll want me." delusion. Flopsy fucked around with this message at 02:16 on Apr 27, 2023 |
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Apr 27, 2023 02:12
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Flopsy posted:I too want to see that. Tragedy is no matter how many time Knives tells him he never quite gets the point is not to kill Vash. In a sick way I think he views him as a rival for his attentions hence the "well once he's gone clearly he'll want me." delusion. There's something so desperate about Legato, I wish we got a different backstory for him. It feels gross and gratuitous with both the content and the placement. I'm looking forward to him butting heads with Elendira.
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Apr 27, 2023 02:26
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I'm curious what will happen to Zazie next.
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Apr 27, 2023 02:34
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Arc Hammer posted:I'm curious what will happen to Zazie next. Now see I actually really like Zazie and I frankly have no idea how you kill off a global hive mind. Also their motivations aren't exactly uh--irrational. They're basically saying "Knives offered us a sweet deal for our long term survival. You want us to stop? Give us a better one." And I can't fault em' for that.
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Apr 27, 2023 02:47
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Maera Sior posted:There's something so desperate about Legato, I wish we got a different backstory for him. It feels gross and gratuitous with both the content and the placement. Agreed he has a pretty miserable backstory, but using that as an excuse for his slavish devotion to Knives and the fact he acts like a massive rear end in a top hat to literally EVERYONE else ain't it. When even the people on your own side hate your guts I think it says something.
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Apr 27, 2023 02:53
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Maera Sior posted:Trigun (it its various forms) is deeply involved in asking what is sin, what can be forgiven, what is redemption, what is faith, what is free will, etc. Different pieces are emphasized across the different versions, but they're all working with some core concepts of Christianity. That imagery informs the audience on how we're supposed to see the characters and story (Vash is Jesus, he physically suffers to save others; Knives is a messiah and/or a cult leader, depending on the side you view him from). Agreed. Wolfwood as the doubting apostle works especially well because a) crossgun is an excellent, nutty visual, and b) it's a legitimate, solid symbol of his torment and salvation. And in the Eye of Michael, we get a familiar expression of Christianity as a perverted tool for protecting the accumulation of power, more interested in contracts and accumulating power than spiritual health. Unlike a lot of shows/games/anime, that's not the whole picture though: we also get Vash, Wolfwood, Rem, and more positive takes.
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Apr 28, 2023 04:25
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I kinda like Legato's backstory because it's the part where the abject misery of Knives' followers as pitiable broken children of man (in the sense, that in the eyes of Vash every human regardless of their capacity for cruelty deserves the grace and pity as would be granted to a child) is at its most uninhibited, charged and challenged. Legato is a dizzying balancing act of absolute excess in service to the themes of Trigun, I think it's served by daring to skirt uncomfortable territory. Not that I don't think it could be told better of course
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Apr 28, 2023 05:14
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Nina posted:I kinda like Legato's backstory because it's the part where the abject misery of Knives' followers as pitiable broken children of man (in the sense, that in the eyes of Vash every human regardless of their capacity for cruelty deserves the grace and pity as would be granted to a child) is at its most uninhibited, charged and challenged. Legato is a dizzying balancing act of absolute excess in service to the themes of Trigun, I think it's served by daring to skirt uncomfortable territory. Not that I don't think it could be told better of course Legato is definitely to be pitied no doubt. He latched onto the closest thing he could conceive of as a savior the minute he was freed from slavery. Because he was so broken at that point if he didn't he may of just fallen apart right there. But he's built himself up into a literal testament of sheer loathing towards his fellow man. And by that i mean literally every man woman and child deserves to suffer in his eyes and he'll even loving eat them raw if he gets the chance because that's how hard he goes in his nihilism. And even then some of the other Guns could have maybe tolerated him but on top of that he's a bully and a nag and seems to get off on literally pissing off his fellow broken children. Like I think he enjoys the power play because of the role reversal but he takes it on out everyone but Knives. Even the people Knives has explicitly said were off limits. I can sympathize with some of the people who get recruited into the Gung-Ho guns but Legato's way of coping is just getting off on being able to hurt everyone and everything around him with impunity. It makes it a hard sell to fully sympathize with him unlike some of the others. He's just so loving excessively spiteful in a series where just about everybody has gone through wringer and they're not nearly as lovely.
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Apr 28, 2023 05:50
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