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Maera Sior posted:I don't think any show will ever top that. we've been in The Final Season for 3 years!
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Apr 10, 2023 22:29
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ninjewtsu posted:part of why i love that line (and a lot of knives' interactions with vash towards the end of the show) is that i get the impression he could be convinced, or is at least willing to consider vash's point of view. but he built his viewpoint on a careful, logical consideration of the facts that him and vash exist because of humans performing grotesque dissections of plants that even their loving mother figure was complicit in, and read our history enough to know that the exploitation of plants is only "new" in that it wasn't always just the plants humans were doing this sort of stuff to. he's at least partially where he's at now for a lack of competing viewpoints that he's willing to consider, and the only person he sees as enough of an equal to possibly give that to him just won't. not even an argument that knives disagrees with but can understand, he just fundamentally doesn't get why vash feels the way he does and is absolutely seething that vash can't even reject him properly. Knives' logic is a great example of a sunk cost fallacy. Vash couldn't physically protect himself when he was a child and Knives made all his decisions based on that. Never mind that Vash now can protect himself with or without his plant powers or that Vash might be able to ask the plants what they want, Knives knows better than all of them! But of course Knives' perspective is entirely logical, so if he just
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Apr 10, 2023 22:31
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ninjewtsu posted:we've been in The Final Season for 3 years! Not quite yet (it started December 2020), but it could be by the time the final chunk airs.
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Apr 10, 2023 22:36
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Sockser posted:Lol Attack on Titan is currently in Season 4: The Final Season: Part 3: Part 2 Arsenal: Nil Leeds: Nil (づ￣ ³￣)づ
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Apr 10, 2023 22:39
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I watched Trigun Stampede on a whim, seeing it being hyped at either SakuraCon or AX. Ended up loving it, and looking forward to the second half. The fast pace was odd at first, but it sounds like it's much better than the first anime. I'll go back and watch the first anime sometime to see what that's all about. I'm fairly sure Trigun Stampede will sell well, and open the door for other new Trigun series from Studio Orange. Looking forward to it!
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Apr 10, 2023 23:22
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I say this as someone who still really enjoys the first anime and thinks the manga is uneven (to be extremely charitable) at best: Try both. All versions are very different critters and liking or disliking one version is no predictor for what you'll think of the others.
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Apr 10, 2023 23:49
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I can't imagine [as] passing this up since Trigun was so well regarded back when it was airing and that should certainly help bolster its popularity a little
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Apr 11, 2023 00:56
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Well Stampede does already have an official dub but I think it’s CR exclusive at the moment
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Apr 11, 2023 01:50
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The first anime had a lot more jokes but tended to meander a bit. This version is more story focused and very fast-paced, and also Holy poo poo it's gorgeous. That first series is...uh... ...Well, it had a rad looking OP.
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Apr 11, 2023 07:30
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the original series looked great when it wasn't looking offputtingly cartoony
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Apr 11, 2023 14:12
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I liked the cat.
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Apr 11, 2023 15:09
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Where the heck is my 3D horny Vash?
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Apr 11, 2023 18:10
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vash not being randomly horny for laughs was definitely the best stampede change thanks for reminding me
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Apr 11, 2023 18:30
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ninjewtsu posted:vash not being randomly horny for laughs was definitely the best stampede change thanks for reminding me Ya I know, it would completely derail the pace and alienate. 
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Apr 11, 2023 18:41
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It's been a long time since I watched the whole Trigun anime but Vash's horniness was as phony as his being a lucky dumbass. I think there's even a scene early on when two girls wanna be with him and he just pretends to be passed out or asleep or something. I thought it was a cute detail to his character.
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Apr 11, 2023 19:04
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sounds lame
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Apr 11, 2023 19:11
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pretty sure later that episode he regrets pretending to be passed out lol
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Apr 11, 2023 19:11
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TBF, Vash IS a lucky idiot but for admirable reasons.
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Apr 11, 2023 19:22
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My best boy Livio got animated so this show can do no wrong in my book.
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Apr 14, 2023 22:28
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Finally finished watching the show. All the Wolfwood stuff was done perfectly imo and I love his expanded backstory in Stampede, but on the flipside I don't really like the writer's work on Knives and the overall key conflict so it's kind of a mixed bag.
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Apr 15, 2023 01:45
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I really like Stampede overall, but I think my one major criticism was its handling of Vash's and Knives's lives on the SEEDs ship. On the off chance they elaborate more in season 2, I'll hide this for those that haven't read the manga. Knives's personality was totally different in the manga. Between the both of them, Knives was way more excited about meeting humans, but was very clearly afraid of rejection. Vash was more of a realist, reminding Knives that it would take effort for them and humans to get along. Hell, Knives full on bawled when Conrad accepted the two of them. The breakdown of the experiments on Tessla was way more detailed in the manga too, with Vash trying to kill himself as a result of finding all that out (and stabbing Rem? I'm unclear on that, I couldn't tell if he actively stabbed her or if she just kinda collapsed on the knife). I don't think Stampede touched on the blank ticket thing that Rem was all about, either. I'm hoping they include some of this in season 2, but I'm not entirely sure how. If anyone wants to read this portion of the manga, and I recommend that they do, it starts halfway through chapter 39 and ends through most of 42. These chapters are, imo, pretty fundamental on understanding why these two are the way they are.
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Apr 15, 2023 03:26
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edit: nvm i failed to read In general I kinda prefer the manga to how both anime veneer more into Knives coming off like he was born bad in some ways, the brothers are on a much more emotionally equal footing before they process trauma vastly differently and end up on the trajectories their psyches take in the long run. There's a very conversational quality I enjoy about Vash, Knives, and the plants in general that I don't see happening in Stampede. Nina fucked around with this message at 18:44 on Apr 15, 2023 |
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Apr 15, 2023 18:35
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This was always one of the major criticisms I've seen from people about the original anime. They didn't feel Knives' descent to villainy was handled nearly as well as the manga. That seems to be the same here, too. That's interesting to me. Young Knives being, if anything,, more sensitive than Vash, which is why he ended up so much more broken, is in fact really interesting.
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Apr 15, 2023 18:57
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NikkolasKing posted:This was always one of the major criticisms I've seen from people about the original anime. They didn't feel Knives' descent to villainy was handled nearly as well as the manga. That seems to be the same here, too. That's interesting to me. It seems to me every anime adaption has left out that Knives was originally the more sensitive emotional twin. But 98' dropped the ball on him big time.
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Apr 16, 2023 02:44
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As a Stampede bandwagoner, yeah Knives feels like a bit of a hamfisted anime villain. I could see the angle of him and Vash being equals being handled better in another medium.
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Apr 17, 2023 03:48
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I liked Knives, and the tension between the brothers, but it did feel a bit from having only watched Stampede that Knives was just ’born evil’ and he is just a problem that Vash is trying to deal with. I didn’t get a sense that they were equal and developed differently due to different experience. It just felt like Vash trying to break free from an abuser. I didn’t feel very sympathetic toward Knives, although the brothers had a interesting dynamic between them. There was the line ”you’ve had a century to think about this and that’s the best you could come up with?!?” which helped a lot to humanize Knives, but it was a bit too little too late. Bisse fucked around with this message at 13:06 on Apr 17, 2023 |
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Apr 17, 2023 13:03
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I think they went pretty far out of their way to establish that knives is like that from seeing the dismembered plant and also reading a history book
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Apr 17, 2023 13:17
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There is another piece I'm hoping they're going to cover that goes a long way to explain why Knives needs to take action to protect Vash.
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Apr 17, 2023 13:22
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Maera Sior posted:There is another piece I'm hoping they're going to cover that goes a long way to explain why Knives needs to take action to protect Vash. Also why that protection has curdled into flat out abusive behavior. I would love a take where Knives was a little less Sephiroth and more an emotionally disturbed counterpart to Vash. I always thought their dichotomy was interesting but more so when they actually act like brothers.
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Apr 17, 2023 23:49
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Flopsy posted:Also why that protection has curdled into flat out abusive behavior. I would love a take where Knives was a little less Sephiroth and more an emotionally disturbed counterpart to Vash. I always thought their dichotomy was interesting but more so when they actually act like brothers. Is there any explanation other than Knives is extremely narcissistic and believes that no one else has or should have agency except by his whim? Because his beliefs are only rational to a point, and that point was far in the past.
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Apr 18, 2023 00:42
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I dunno the fact that plants are sentient beings and humans exclusively use them to keep the lights on definitely does a lot for knives, as a plant, refusing to accept human reasoning or perspectives Which leaves him pretty isolated to develop the narcissism
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Apr 18, 2023 01:52
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ninjewtsu posted:I dunno the fact that plants are sentient beings and humans exclusively use them to keep the lights on definitely does a lot for knives, as a plant, refusing to accept human reasoning or perspectives Knives biggest issue is he's already falling into the "Some animals are more equal than others" mindset. He sees dependent plants as expendable and only as a means of producing more independents like him and Vash. He might do lip service to wanting to save them but his treatment of them in the show and manga shows anything but. Also my theory as to his continued obsession with Vash is that he's his closest genetic equivalent on Gunsmoke but his complete ideological opposite and it drives him mad. A biological copy of himself that doesn't agree with his beliefs and tactics and worse Vash isn't equipped to debate this kinda stuff with him logically. Vash just wants to be left in peace and honestly if Knives wasn't out and about sabotaging poo poo he might've made a lot more headway with his own way of dealing with things. Because at the end of the day if Vash was making real progress it would undermine everything Knives is trying to do and has done in the belief he's saving his brother from the parasites.
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Apr 18, 2023 02:38
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i dunno, my read is that it's more than lip service but in the absence of any peers besides vash he's gotten pretty warped over time. and because vash is his only peer, the only person he could even consider the words of, that's what's ultimately driving him insane over vash's inability to argue back. that vash is his brother adds a lot of additional psychological considerations but down to his core i think what's really driving knives nuts is that he's really just plain all alone. he refuses to trust humans, vash has chosen to side with the humans and can't really articulate why so that's a nonstarter, and knives can't communicate with the plants like vash can. so yeah, despite """noble""" ideals about his fellow plants, with only himself to bounce his ideas off of or have them challenged he's gotten pretty weird about how he views the agency of others, even the dependent plants or, ultimately, his own brother.
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Apr 18, 2023 02:48
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I'd argue Stampede Knives was warped by the time he made the ships crash. He's already blaming Vash for it even though he refuses to give Vash agency. I don't remember whether manga Knives claims Vash is to blame, but there's a similar way he ignores his agency. And of course Knives refuses to consider what the regular plants want before wrecking them in either version.
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Apr 18, 2023 04:10
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Maera Sior posted:I'd argue Stampede Knives was warped by the time he made the ships crash. He's already blaming Vash for it even though he refuses to give Vash agency. I don't remember whether manga Knives claims Vash is to blame, but there's a similar way he ignores his agency. And of course Knives refuses to consider what the regular plants want before wrecking them in either version. In the manga we at least have much better set up of why they turned out the way they did. For example Vash spent 80 years traveling with Knives before he couldn't stand it any more and left him. I don't doubt there's an element of isolation leading into insanity for him but it's all self inflicted. Vash was lovingly raised by humans and naturally feels more comfortable confiding with the people on ship 3 instead of his brother because they won't bum rush him with rage and reprogramming if there's a disagreement. Knives sense of how to manage his emotions has wildly deteriorated especially because he can't communicate with his sisters nor ask for their opinions. As such he kind of disregards their sense of self as "under developed" and thinks he's "fixing" them by forcefully using them to breed or enhance himself. It's telling when other independents show up later on they loving hate him and he's just utterly broken by the fact. Vash is the only person who's ever truly been kind to him out of love and nobody else (aside from Legato who worships him) likes him. He's literally the most hated person in universe by every sentient species (plant and human) by the end. Flopsy fucked around with this message at 08:27 on Apr 18, 2023 |
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Apr 18, 2023 04:20
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Flopsy posted:It's telling when other independents show up later on they loving hate him and he's just utterly broken by the fact. Vash is the only person who's ever truly been kind to him out of love and nobody else (aside from Legato who worships him) likes him. He's literally the most hated person in universe by every sentient species (plant and human) by the end. Weren't Chronica and Domina originally upset that Knives was threatening planets? And then Domina was absorbed, which made it personal for Chronica. Too bad Knives decided that the one human who loved him was garbage and was at fault for breaking his brother. ETA: I do agree that the 80-year gap helps flesh things out. Things are different enough in Stampede that I'm not sure what's needed to smooth out this version. Maera Sior fucked around with this message at 04:41 on Apr 18, 2023 |
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Apr 18, 2023 04:37
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Maera Sior posted:Weren't Chronica and Domina originally upset that Knives was threatening planets? And then Domina was absorbed, which made it personal for Chronica. Exactly. Knives' problem is he thinks his behavior is the norm for an advanced species and when others of his kind show up and they just think he's nuts that wrecks the fantasy for him. He really is more isolated than he ever fathomed he was and even if he did breed a new generation independents it's more or less blatantly shown they wouldn't think much of him either. And I get why he's like that, he terrified of either him or Vash being torn apart and dissected. But blaming an entire species for that because you read the Bible once is extremely short sighted and childish. He catastrophrizes then does the worst possible thing to validate that fear.
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Apr 18, 2023 04:51
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Flopsy posted:Exactly. Knives' problem is he thinks his behavior is the norm for an advanced species and when others of his kind show up and they just think he's nuts that wrecks the fantasy for him. He really is more isolated than he ever fathomed he was and even if he did breed a new generation independents it's more or less blatantly shown they wouldn't think much of him either. And I get why he's like that, he terrified of either him or Vash being torn apart and dissected. But blaming an entire species for that because you read the Bible once is extremely short sighted and childish. He catastrophrizes then does the worst possible thing to validate that fear. My impression of the manga was that Nightow was dabbling with the ideas that Knives was getting increasingly unhinged due to the different experiences of the plants he absorbed and the that plant gestalt was starting to act on instinct and not just under his conscious control, but I recall them just sort of falling on the floor and rolling under a shelf in favor of "Actually, he's just super powerful and cool." Like so many of Nightow's other ideas. As much as I rag on the flaws in the manga, I wouldn't be so excited for Stampede if there weren't some really good nuggets for someone else to work with. Going post-apocalyptic was such a mindfuck, I couldn't believe he actually did it. Too bad there was so little meaningful follow-through. Could definitely mine that for some tension at the end if they wanted to.
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Apr 18, 2023 05:12
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Maera Sior posted:My impression of the manga was that Nightow was dabbling with the ideas that Knives was getting increasingly unhinged due to the different experiences of the plants he absorbed and the that plant gestalt was starting to act on instinct and not just under his conscious control, but I recall them just sort of falling on the floor and rolling under a shelf in favor of "Actually, he's just super powerful and cool." Like so many of Nightow's other ideas. I just nakedly love westerns in space. Reading they wanted to lean in a little harder with the sci-fi elements this time around was definitely interesting.
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Apr 18, 2023 06:35
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Was the first time we saw adult Knives in Stampede when he was wearing his oversized hood cloak and playing manic piano?
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Apr 18, 2023 07:30
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