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RevolverDivider posted:Druckmann is poo poo so his involvement is not great. Explain.
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Jan 13, 2023 02:34
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Oh dang, if they're taking lines straight from the game then the end of the "prologue" is gonna hit hard 
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Jan 13, 2023 02:34
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roomtone posted:Explain. https://www.ign.com/articles/naughty-dog-leaders-discuss-crunch-tlou2 Druckmann has continued to defend crunching the poo poo out of his employees since this, he’s a piece of poo poo. I love the original but 2 is awful. I want to like it and there’s plenty of things it does I should like but it’s just trash and misses all the points and nuances I like about the original.
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Jan 13, 2023 02:38
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RevolverDivider posted:https://www.ign.com/articles/naughty-dog-leaders-discuss-crunch-tlou2 What are those points and nuances?
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Jan 13, 2023 02:43
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well just to be clear you don't like tlou2, that's fine it's got pretty much nothing to do with naughty dog's crunch practices
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Jan 13, 2023 02:44
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I could go on for ages about all the ways I don’t care for how 2 approaches the original but it’s much quicker to just sum it up with the ending. The first game had a phenomenal ending that never needed a follow up. 2 picks an interpretation of that ending, says this is the right interpretation and runs with it in an incredibly uninteresting and tired direction.
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Jan 13, 2023 02:49
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RevolverDivider posted:I could go on for ages about all the ways I don’t care for how 2 approaches the original but it’s much quicker to just sum it up with the ending. Bro you’ve barely explained why you don’t like it outside of crunch and now this vague post about the ending despite saying you can go on ages.
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Jan 13, 2023 03:14
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I guess some people might still side with Joel's choice at the end of Part 1, just as the character himself does. And they can still make that choice after playing Part 2. Ellie's reaction to the choice couldn't possibly be different than what TLOU2 shows though. Really, every character's reaction to the truth of his action rings true to their personality. Like, maybe you think her assessment of Joel's choice was wrong (I don't), but that's clearly how her character as established in the Part 1 would perceive it. Even Joel knows this, that's why he lies to her. How does that accurate depiction of the character undo anything about the first game? The REAL Goobusters posted:Bro you’ve barely explained why you don’t like it outside of crunch and now this vague post about the ending despite saying you can go on ages. And yeah, this. You've been asked to expound on your opinion, so why not do it? Presumably, you didn't just come here to talk poo poo then peace out? Bugblatter fucked around with this message at 03:20 on Jan 13, 2023 |
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Jan 13, 2023 03:15
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I’m not going into heavy detail since I’m phone posting and I can’t loving stand 2 and there’s no conversation that will ever change that, but I don’t agree with any of the comments that 2 was true to the characters. Ellie knows exactly what happened at the end of 1 and chooses to accept the lie instead to take the life she’s being offered rather then dwell on what has already happened. That’s how I read the scene, she isn’t stupid and knows what went down as it’s very obvious. The choice however is to take that lie and move ahead with it anyway as what’s done is done. 2 dedicated dozens of hours and dragged down 1’s narrative to say revenge is bad and act like that is a fascinating and original concept that hasn’t been done a billion times before. Is 1 that original? No absolutely not. It wasn’t nearly as far up its own rear end in a top hat as 2 is however. I’m still happy to give the show a chance, but I’d be much happier if it was just a one and done.
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Jan 13, 2023 03:24
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I can't really imagine watching the final scene of Part 1, especially the steely reading of Ellie's final "okay," and coming away thinking she's okay and accepting... what about that final conversation sounds like a person who is okay with what she's being told? Summing up Part 2 as being a story about "revenge = bad" is dishonestly simple. It's about dealing with trauma, seeking redemption for irrevocable actions, and failures of empathy. It explores all of those in ways that are more honest and psychologically grounded than the more trite depictions we often get. In any medium, let alone games. Bugblatter fucked around with this message at 03:32 on Jan 13, 2023 |
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Jan 13, 2023 03:28
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RevolverDivider posted:I can’t loving stand 2 and there’s no conversation that will ever change that that's okay, I just think in the scope of what the story has as themes it's pretty out of scale. i think last of us 2 is the best video game story outside of deus ex and sh2, it's in the top three with those two, and maybe even including them just giving points for emotional impact. threw me everywhere. if you don't think a 25 hour exploration of what revenge does to a person on both sides of the event, the ways it can spiral out, and the eventual potential to just let it the gently caress go in the end, is a good story, i don't know what would qualify. i think a story not attached to joel in particular who you played as in part 1 would easily qualify, but i think you've got blinkers on that say nah, all of that it bullshit, joel joel joel. so obvious! so basic! as if part 1 wasn't, as if it even matters at all. none of this conversation is new, though. the thing i was saying makes me sad is how much of the conversation about tlou2 is just covering basic dogshit groundwork like this, and then by the time you get to the details of how tlou2 is a great tragedy, everybody's bored even though that's the part that makes it work. ellie's continual degradation into a monster throughout that game can be an engrossing and harrowing experience if you aren't distracted by 'IS THIS JUST REVENGE IS BAD?' stupidity. i suppose this post ended more hostile than i started. roomtone fucked around with this message at 03:38 on Jan 13, 2023 |
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Jan 13, 2023 03:33
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I just do not agree in the slightest that 2 successfully executed any of that. I get what it’s trying to do, but I do not agree that it remotely succeeds in pulling it off. If I felt like it did, I wouldn’t hate it as much as I do. Killing Joel is totally fine and even a ballsy story choice. It’s the execution and framing that I think are trash. There’s nothing wrong with liking 2 and I’m not trying to be overly hostile here. It’s just easily one of my most disliked games out there and it’s hard for me to ignore it when it actively went after stuff I like about the original.
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Jan 13, 2023 03:36
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The problem is that you're claiming ownership over a specific interpretation of the character and acting like you were betrayed because the game went in a different direction (and TBH, I don't even think the Ellie half of TLOU2 is that strong, at least in comparison to the Abby half) Also it took like 24 hours for this thread to get into an argument about the ending, 
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Jan 13, 2023 03:39
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RevolverDivider posted:it actively went after stuff I like about the original. we just have really different ideas of what was good about the original, which i've said along with others, i only liked, didn't love, other than the intro, winter and ending, which were amazing. to me, tlou2 zeroed right in on the things i liked about the first one and exploded in a horrible firework display of remorse.
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Jan 13, 2023 03:41
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Yeah I’m aware it comes across that way. Trust me, I’ve tried giving 2 a fair chance and gone through it as I would like to like it. Just can’t loving stand it.
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Jan 13, 2023 03:42
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RevolverDivider posted:I just do not agree in the slightest that 2 successfully executed any of that. I get what it’s trying to do, but I do not agree that it remotely succeeds in pulling it off. If I felt like it did, I wouldn’t hate it as much as I do. I thought it was one of the most nuanced explorations of the topics it brought up that I've seen in a visual medium. It spends a significant amount of time depicting how each character processes the events in ways I found honest. It would be cool if you actually discussed the reasons you think it failed instead of just repeatedly saying it's "trash," "awful," and its creator is "poo poo." If you don't want to come across as overly hostile, you're not succeeding. I can't really see how you'd think TLOU1 ended with Ellie just accepting that humanity was damned to avoid her sacrifice and her surrogate father continued to lie to her face about it and she never had trouble processing or accepting that. That doesn't sound like the response of an actual emotionally functional human, it would leave trauma which TLOU2 explores. In particular, it explores the reaction to losing the ability to seek closure to the fallout in a way that I found incredibly compelling.
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Jan 13, 2023 03:47
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I’m really not interested in going further with this conversation because I don’t see any of those things at all in 2 and do not remotely agree that 2 is the logical follow up to 1 or the only reasonable interpretation of 1’s ending at all and there’s no conversation to be had here that will change anyone’s minds. I’m just interested in seeing if we’re getting a good adaptation of the first game that can stand on its own.
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Jan 13, 2023 03:51
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LAST OF US 2 YOU MOTHERFUCKER WHY ARE YOU SO GOOD YET PISS SO MANY PEOPLE OFF AAAAAARRRR i really hope they adapt tlou2, gently caress it all. get abby fully in there. hit joel right in the head. let's see an alternative retelling of rage. and rage is an important word for that game because it's what ellie is feeling for a long chunk of it. imagine if ellie had been killed. joel's face on the cover, pure rage. it would have made a million 13 year old's balls quiver with anticipation. i remember that feeling. mgs2. then i didn't get to play as snake. you've got a choice to make in this situation - are you going to be a pissed off young man, like 4 billion others and yeah they are all that stupid, or will you take a minute and think about it.
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Jan 13, 2023 03:52
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https://mobile.twitter.com/Cudagras/status/1613511643664732160 https://mobile.twitter.com/FakeBrandon5/status/1613526174009028609
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Jan 13, 2023 06:38
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RevolverDivider posted:I’m really not interested in going further with this conversation because I don’t see any of those things at all in 2 and do not remotely agree that 2 is the logical follow up to 1 or the only reasonable interpretation of 1’s ending at all and there’s no conversation to be had here that will change anyone’s minds. I’m just interested in seeing if we’re getting a good adaptation of the first game that can stand on its own. You should probably go back to Reddit lmao
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Jan 13, 2023 08:05
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yeah tommy's voice is hilariously close to the video game version
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Jan 13, 2023 08:25
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Lol 2 is just "revenge bad" though . Both have simple plots but the first game surprised me with it's character development and it's ending. The second did not. The end of 1 is ambiguous. I like that, but if I had to guess I would have said some fireflies track down Joel and kill him and Elle goes after them for revenge. Which is exactly what we got and it's just not as interesting or compelling to me. After the church I thought the game was going to go somewhere more interesting but it didn't and by the end I just felt like I was playing a misery simulator. The game isn't remotely a "bad game" and didn't deserve the hate but its also not some masterpiece of story telling. I don't have a clue how hbo would transfer that to TV either. The main thing that makes 2 even slightly interesting is how it switches up the narrative and makes you play as Abbey right after she golf tees Joel's face. As a passive form of entertainment that just won't work as well.
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Jan 13, 2023 09:27
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you don't find ellie sitting in the ruins of her former home, her dad dead, her fingers missing, wondering what the gently caress she's supposed to do next, ambiguous?
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Jan 13, 2023 09:33
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Nah, I think the second game is an absolutely fantastic experience. You can be reductive about the plot and boil it down to a simple two word summary, sure, but I don't think that's meaningful. Most stories can be boiled down to a two or three word summary, like the "seven stories" -- man vs man, man vs god, etc. I agree about the interactivity being key though -- I found the second game powerful because the way it sutures you into Ellie's perspective for such a long period, and then challenges that perspective in its second half. it's an absolutely exhausting experience, and feels designed to challenge the relationship players often form with the characters they play. I think it's also absolutely designed to piss people off, so I think that the strong emotions around the game are ultimately just a testament to the power of its transgressions. You could tell the story in a far simpler, far shorter run time, but the power of the thing is in how long it is and how upsettingly it escalates from something that's actually, fundamentally, quite simple. The moment when you're riding the horse across the burning island at the end is one of the most powerful set-pieces in videogames, not just on the level of craft (it's very impressive) but also because it manages to take an abstract moral parable that a lot of people would agree with and then makes you feel that in your gut. This isn't me trying to say "I didn't know revenge was bad until I played The Last Of Us Part II". Only that there's an inherent worth in telling the story it does tell, and that I felt it told it very well. Open Source Idiom fucked around with this message at 09:43 on Jan 13, 2023 |
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Jan 13, 2023 09:41
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By that point I didn't really care. She's go back town and try and makeup with her wife or she's just become a drifter. Either choice isn't very interesting. I'll say one thing for the second game. When it was announced I groaned because i half expected them to pander to the worst fans and make it Ellie and Joel's continue adventures in murder world. They didn't do that and they tried to tell the story in an interesting way , it just didn't work for me.
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Jan 13, 2023 09:42
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I do much prefer the ambiguity of the first game's ending, and still wish they'd left it there. But since we had to have a sequel I'm very happy with what we got.
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Jan 13, 2023 09:45
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Agreed with most of the previous posts, I think people in forums like this are just really predisposed to be dismissive of game stories cos gently caress they'll make fun of you, but I think TLOU2 is a legit good story and it is up there with a lot of novels and films, they're not on high. Yeah it's got some moments here and there which are semi-clunky, the Ellie to Abby switch half and half I think is debatable becasuse it opens such easy doors for 'revenge bad!!!!!' bozos to come in, but the game is a very complex emotional experience and we're brushing over that. The initial chill when everything is okay, the rage when joel dies, the slow chilling of that rage for the player but ellie just sinking deeper into her need to end this, then the switch and brutality of it - jesse down, tommy down just enough to turn rancid, then the ending where ellie has let herself become something completely ugly in service of this rage and ultiumately, fear because joel isn't going to be around anymore, leading you to the end of that when ellie obviously doesn't forgive she just sees abby in that emaciated form which reminds her for the first time - this is just a person, and her own choices still matter. she decides to be a human being at that last extremity. goes home to dina and the kid and they're gone, she can't play the song joel liked to play to her anymore, but she's alive. and that's just ellie's story. christ sake. abby's got a whole different thing about being that monster and coming back to being a person. i know you all know these things, but to say 'pffft gently caress it, load of poo poo'. what the gently caress do you expect? i don't think it's even a depressing ending, that's an uplifting message when you look into it, it just takes you all over the place. i didn't even get into lev and owen and all that poo poo but it's all great. to reduce all that to 'revenge bad' or 'eh good game didn't care for the story' just reeks to me of internet poisoning, even though i get that some people might not get into this, when the common phrases and points get made ad infinitum about how it's not that good, i don't believe you. TLOU2 is loving great. roomtone fucked around with this message at 10:59 on Jan 13, 2023 |
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Jan 13, 2023 09:55
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Yeah if you don’t like TLOU2 whatever but to suggest it is inherently a failure and doesn’t succeed perfectly and be exactly what it wanted to be at least 95% of the time is utterly foolish tbh
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Jan 13, 2023 10:36
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Regardless of what you thought about the 2nd game I think most people would agree that it relies heavily on the gameplay to full fill that goal of getting the player seeing things from Abbeys perspective, how can HBO duplicate that in a passive media format? I think expecting people to stay tuned in and committed through 4+ episodes of pure Abbey after Joel dies is a tall order, they are going to have to find one hell of an actor to pull it off. Or they are going to rewrite the events, at least the order in which they happen. Mega Comrade fucked around with this message at 10:56 on Jan 13, 2023 |
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Jan 13, 2023 10:52
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Hmm, I don't think the fact that I'm shooting zombies or seraphites in between cutscenes has much to do with it. It was just the writing of the dialogue and the performances in the cutscenes that did it for me.
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Jan 13, 2023 10:56
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It's a game though and the gameplay compells people to stick with it and allows the game the time to tell it's story. A TV show doesn't have that, it's a subscription, you don't lose value by just stopping watching it, if they stick to the same formula for the TV show I'd put money on ratings dropping off heavily after Joel dies. Especially as he's being played by easily the largest star of the show.
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Jan 13, 2023 11:02
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I think the love and loyalty people had for Joel is also because he was the player character for most of the first game. Combined with the almost certainty that his death will have spoiled for the die hards waaaay before the second season ever comes out, I think the transition will just be easier. I think people get over this poo poo pretty easily tbh, and TV watchers love rooting for lovely people, psychopaths, hero killers, etc. etc. Also also tbh, I never cared much for Joel after the first game anyway. You're definitely gonna have a whole bunch of people happy to see him killed. And months and months and months of that ending debate all over again. You love to see it.
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Jan 13, 2023 11:11
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I think most people are gonna be upset about seeing this beautiful mug caved in with a golf club
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Jan 13, 2023 11:15
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Mega Comrade posted:I think most people are gonna be upset about seeing this beautiful mug caved in with a golf club We've seen it caved in by worse already tbf
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Jan 13, 2023 11:54
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Lol I completely forgot about that.
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Jan 13, 2023 12:01
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In a show that made a habit of making the viewers care about characters initially portrayed as rear end in a top hat villains, no less.
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Jan 13, 2023 13:04
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RevolverDivider posted:I just do not agree in the slightest that 2 successfully executed any of that. I get what it’s trying to do, but I do not agree that it remotely succeeds in pulling it off. If I felt like it did, I wouldn’t hate it as much as I do. Lol “I get what it’s trying to do” is and will always be the most impotent criticism alive
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Jan 13, 2023 14:51
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Tlou1 is about the apocalypse but tlou2 is apocalyptic.
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Jan 13, 2023 14:55
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look i get what it's trying to do fuckers i get it i'm smart and i watch them doing it and offeered (line( zero ideas.
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Jan 13, 2023 14:59
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The only thing I really don’t like about 2 is making the Fireflies seem like they had a shot at a cure, instead of 1 where it feels like they were taking a blind shot in the dark and hoping it worked out.
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Jan 13, 2023 15:12
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