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Halisnacks posted:Anyone really interested in the modern ethics of having children would do well to read this 2020 piece “Is it OK to have a child?”, which is really a fantastic nuanced, and balanced survey. Yes, thanks! I enjoyed this and I think I may have read it before. Some choice quotes. quote:I find this framing troubling. Most obviously, it shifts responsibility for global emissions from systemic actors like fossil fuel companies and governments onto individuals. By doing so, it gives corporations a pass while placing moral responsibility on people who live within systems where they are not free to make carbon-neutral choices. quote:This is the logic of the personal carbon footprint: you cast a shadow on the planet that it is your moral duty to minimise. If you extend that logic to the question of whether it’s OK to have a child, it’s hard to see how the answer could be anything other than ‘no’. quote:In Japan sterilisation is still required of trans people seeking legal recognition. After Hurricane Katrina, one Louisiana state representative proposed paying people who receive state assistance $1000 if they agreed to be sterilised. He cited budgetary concerns and the likelihood of more frequent hurricanes. just pointing out how instantly this kind of litigation gets used as a bludgeon quote:this utopia is hard to imagine without also thinking about the bloody path that would lead to it. ‘I was horrified,’ Jenny Turner wrote in the LRB (31 May 2017). ‘How can a planet lose seven or eight billion humans “over a couple of hundred years” without events of indiscriminate devastation? When people start thinking about getting rid of other people, which sorts of people does history suggest are usually got rid of first?’ quote:Increasing access to birth control for women in the Global South with the aim of reducing global emissions all but jettisons the possibility of reproductive justice, which supports every woman’s right to choose how many children she wants to have.  not so sure on that onequote:There are no ‘good’ programmes for global population control, not just because it is anti-feminist, racist and anti-human, but because it is impossible to put an upper limit on how many people are too many for the planet. Worth noting that the author is a parent and is clearly processing their own emotions from that perspective. It would be interesting if we had the same piece from an alternate reality where the same author had not had children but attempted to write the same essay.
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Jan 18, 2023 21:03
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LanceHunter posted:It also doesn't help that VEHEMENT and their ilk are really just eugenicists trying to cloak their fascist ideology in an eco-friendly semi-nihilist garb. How is wanting the entire human race to go extinct eugenicism?
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Jan 18, 2023 21:04
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LanceHunter posted:It also doesn't help that VEHEMENT and their ilk are really just eugenicists trying to cloak their fascist ideology in an eco-friendly semi-nihilist garb. see previous comment about how cults start!!
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Jan 18, 2023 21:06
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Kids are awesome and wholesome and fun and they bring me joy, but sometimes I look at them take delight and wonder in the world and I'm like "none of this poo poo will exist into your adulthood", so I probably won't have them. I guess I've also just never felt parental though. No urge at all. I don't care if I'm forgotten or whatever, I won't be around to know about it. Disco Pope fucked around with this message at 21:13 on Jan 18, 2023 |
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Jan 18, 2023 21:10
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Disco Pope posted:Kids are awesome and wholesome and fun and they bring me joy, but sometimes I look at them take delight and wonder in the world and I'm like "none of this poo poo will exist into your adulthood", so I probably won't have them. The wonder exists in my adulthood but adulthood is basically bullshit anyway, IMO. Even if I didn't have kids I would not feel the sense of wonder I see them experience by redirecting that money into personal passions. the idea that "happy childhood" is a mystical bubble with few historical precedents that has only existed for specific demographics of people in specific geographic areas for some part of the last, oh, 100 years or so, and that it's always followed by the difficulty and responsibility of adulthood, was one of the cognitive biases I leveraged to be basically okay with having kids. Put more simply, my kids, should they live long enough, are almost certain to endure hardships and global changes I can't predict or imagine. But if I'd had kids in 1887 instead of 2017, unless I happened to be super wealthy, there's a pretty decent chance they'd already be doing some kind of insanely dangerous factory work or w/e and I'd spend every afternoon hoping they came home with both arms and enough money to buy food. Even with everything falling apart in very clear and obvious ways, the world is still very much what you can make of it based on your resources, and if you're of lower-middle-class-or-better means in most parts of the world you're in an objectively better situation right now than you'd be likely to be in if you just did a die roll to switch spots with someone from a random other point in time. (This may not hold true over a 10-30 year time frame, granted... exciting times, no?) Also in 1887 people didn't spend any amount of time cognitively processing this, for all the reasons discussed to death already.
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Jan 18, 2023 21:19
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here, gonna break my own rule and be proscriptive: if your will to have children can't survive reading the 1st 100 pages each of the CSPAM Biosphere and Econ threads, don't have kids
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Jan 18, 2023 21:21
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Cabbages and Kings posted:here, gonna break my own rule and be proscriptive: if your will to have children can't survive reading the 1st 100 pages each of the CSPAM Biosphere and Econ threads, don't have kids Joke's on you. My sire will be the counterbalance to the nightmare that people call the "real world."
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Jan 18, 2023 21:23
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what else was I supposed to do 21 years ago
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Jan 18, 2023 21:26
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Cabbages and Kings posted:what is "value" and why is it important, both in general, and why is it an important thing I should prioritize maximizing? Well yes, if you view everything from a human-centric lens then yeah.
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Jan 18, 2023 21:28
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Cabbages and Kings posted:Yes, thanks! I enjoyed this and I think I may have read it before. Some choice quotes. Yeah the quotes you selected all resonated with me as well. Realising now that my snippet probably suggested the answer to “Is it OK” was “No”, rather than “This question really is hard as poo poo.” quote:
I also thought that was a a big reach and much more clumsy than the rest of the essay. But it did make me reflect on how our conversation of reproductive rights focuses almost exclusively on a woman’s right to terminate pregnancies when those same rights, if taken seriously, include having as many children as a woman’s body will allow if she so chooses. quote:Worth noting that the author is a parent and is clearly processing their own emotions from that perspective. Yeah and for whatever reason I do think this made her the “right” author for the essay. Her answer to the “Is it OK” question is in there, by the way, for anyone so inclined to read it, but it’s almost secondary to all the layers delved into, IMO.
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Jan 18, 2023 21:30
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Big Scary Owl posted:Does getting a vasectomy hurt? The anesthetic wasn't sufficient at one point, leading to the very distinct feeling of a blunt nail clipper on my vas deferens. I mentioned that it hurt and they immediately numbed me up more. In the following weeks, the ache was tolerable and eventually became intermittent to nil. The bruising was... interesting, but temporary. Don't regret it, A+ 10/10
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Jan 18, 2023 21:39
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ElectricSheep posted:The anesthetic wasn't sufficient at one point, leading to the very distinct feeling of a blunt nail clipper on my vas deferens.
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Jan 18, 2023 22:10
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It’s very telling about society, and as is evidenced by this thread, that when it comes to having kids people don’t even remember adoption exists. As a society we have to do better about exploring that option and educating people on it. It doesn’t have to be “I can’t biologically have kids, so I guess I’ll adopt” but rather it should be “I am going to equally weigh adoption versus birthing as two equal ways to be a parent.” Most parents I talk to never even considered adoption at all, like never even entered their brain, and we have to do better than that.
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Jan 18, 2023 22:15
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It’s pretty hosed up and probably a strong candidate for something future generations will look back on and be like “Glad we made some moral progress on that front.”
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Jan 18, 2023 22:21
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LuckyCat posted:It’s very telling about society, and as is evidenced by this thread, that when it comes to having kids people don’t even remember adoption exists. As a society we have to do better about exploring that option and educating people on it. It doesn’t have to be “I can’t biologically have kids, so I guess I’ll adopt” but rather it should be “I am going to equally weigh adoption versus birthing as two equal ways to be a parent.” Most parents I talk to never even considered adoption at all, like never even entered their brain, and we have to do better than that. It gets brushed aside every time the states get into their perpetual slapfight over abortion as well. I'm pretty glad my folks considered pre-birth adoption (even if they ended up birthing two children after me anyway after thinking they couldn't.) I'd say it worked out well for all involved.
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Jan 18, 2023 22:29
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Cedarbridge posted:Despite having never felt this pain, I felt it while reading this post. BIG  I applaud ElectricSheep's courage to do it though, cause I know I'd be too scared to do it.
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Jan 18, 2023 23:26
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i got the snip. it was really uneventful and basically painless. i understand that qualifying 'painless' at all is loaded when we're talking about the inside of your genitals but it was seriously not that bad.
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Jan 19, 2023 00:49
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MSPain posted:i got the snip. it was really uneventful and basically painless. i understand that qualifying 'painless' at all is loaded when we're talking about the inside of your genitals but it was seriously not that bad. Beats clapping two bricks I guess
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Jan 19, 2023 01:15
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I never wanted kids, ended up with one anyway. I genuinely have never been so happy in my life, every day I go to work I wait to be able to go home and see her, it's crazy how much you can love another person and how much of a different level it is even to how I feel about my wife. I also got nearly a month of leave paid for by the government, my wife gets 6 months paid leave, then some free childcare, free Healthcare for our daughter until she turns 18 and we can live off just my income. If I were in America maybe it would be a more stressful time. As far as all the climate stuff, we're going to need more hands to tear down the walls and eat the rich.
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Jan 19, 2023 02:34
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Disco Pope posted:Kids are awesome and wholesome and fun and they bring me joy, but sometimes I look at them take delight and wonder in the world and I'm like "none of this poo poo will exist into your adulthood", so I probably won't have them. Yes, they are fun if theyre not yours, just like big slobbering dogs and fistfights. Once you have them, and they dont just leave with their owners after a nice afternoon and you get your life back, things turn a little bit different.
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Jan 19, 2023 08:17
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carrionman posted:I never wanted kids, ended up with one anyway. I feel there's a lot of context here
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Jan 19, 2023 08:38
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Why have kids (in the US or other failed/failing state)? and Why have kids (in a functioning social democracy with high public investment in parental and childhood well-being)? are basically unrelated questions.
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Jan 19, 2023 09:02
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Big Scary Owl posted:Does getting a vasectomy hurt? there were four painful moments: cutting each vas deferens tubes and then cauterizing them. "painful" kinda oversells it, it was like a 2/10 physical pain but the pain kinda went up into my abdomen like when you get hit in the nuts. The psychological aspect of someone mucking w my genitals was immense, i was breathing heavy and shaking a little bit before and afterwards Really it was like watching that jackass skit where they use the sturdy yellow envelopes to give themselves paper cuts on the webbing between their fingers, the same kinda visceral reaction that makes you recoil even though you havent experienced the pain yourself. ah also busting my first nut was nerve-wracking, i was worried my balls would explode or fall off or something crazy like that (didnt happen obv) All things considered, 10/10 would 100% recommend if you're thinking about it
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Jan 19, 2023 12:52
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LuckyCat posted:It’s very telling about society, and as is evidenced by this thread, that when it comes to having kids people don’t even remember adoption exists. As a society we have to do better about exploring that option and educating people on it. It doesn’t have to be “I can’t biologically have kids, so I guess I’ll adopt” but rather it should be “I am going to equally weigh adoption versus birthing as two equal ways to be a parent.” Most parents I talk to never even considered adoption at all, like never even entered their brain, and we have to do better than that. What do you think about modern views of adoption? Traditionally it was kind of seen as being some sort of saviour, helping out kids in need (who would automatically become your kids with no ties to their past). The narrative seems to have shifted a lot since then and encompasses far more complexity on what exactly one's role is as an adoptive parent.
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Jan 19, 2023 13:25
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Halisnacks posted:Why have kids (in the US or other failed/failing state)? lol yeah
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Jan 19, 2023 14:11
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Slugworth posted:Lmao if you're having kids for organ donation. Friend, if I need an organ, I'm just getting it from someone else's kid. Probably yours, honestly. Late to respond because I was getting some fresh organs from my kids Guess you’re outta luck bub
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Jan 19, 2023 20:38
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womb with a view posted:What do you think about modern views of adoption? Traditionally it was kind of seen as being some sort of saviour, helping out kids in need (who would automatically become your kids with no ties to their past). The narrative seems to have shifted a lot since then and encompasses far more complexity on what exactly one's role is as an adoptive parent. Depends on who you’re adopting through. There is a lot of corruption in global adoption, some of it on the same level as trafficking or kidnapping done under the auspices of a religious organization claiming to save ignorant savages. Adoption needs domestically (in the USA) are very high publicly but a lot of would-be parents are unwilling to adopt siblings, or don’t want to deal with children that already have a personality. That’s nothing into say of the difficulty of getting kids with special needs housed There’s private groups that try to turn a buck doing adoption stuff and they do nothing to alleviate the public need cuz it’s done through businesses, private parties. On top of this, state agencies tasked with protecting these kids keep having them mysteriously die ( because foster parents weren’t properly vetted or trained, workers didn’t deal with medical poo poo, etc) But since they’re just kids of deadbeats (aka people who need more support) it’s just not a big deal
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Jan 19, 2023 20:53
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Foster parents provide stability until such a time kids can be reunited with parents or the state determines that isn’t possible. Adoptive parents have parental rights and the kids are all intents and purposes theirs I think adoption is still largely seen as a charitable activity when the reasons someone might adopt could be as lovely or good as any bio-parent’s reason
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Jan 19, 2023 20:59
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I need to stop effort posting
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Jan 19, 2023 21:00
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On the subject of adoption, I wonder how common it is for adopted children to want to meet their biological parents. I think if I were one of them I would like to meet them also to punch them in the face
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Jan 19, 2023 21:53
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I'm 38, about to get married and I've never felt one tiny little iota of desire to have kids. I don't like being around kids, it sucks that my friends with kids have their kids around sometimes and I have to be near them. I'm seeing a doctor for ADHD meds soon and he also does vasectomies so I'm going to ask about that and hopefully truly embody my username. I like watching Old Enough though 
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Jan 19, 2023 21:54
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Big Scary Owl posted:On the subject of adoption, I wonder how common it is for adopted children to want to meet their biological parents. I think if I were one of them I would like to meet them also It's a two-way street.
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Jan 19, 2023 21:57
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LuckyCat posted:It’s very telling about society, and as is evidenced by this thread, that when it comes to having kids people don’t even remember adoption exists. As a society we have to do better about exploring that option and educating people on it. It doesn’t have to be “I can’t biologically have kids, so I guess I’ll adopt” but rather it should be “I am going to equally weigh adoption versus birthing as two equal ways to be a parent.” Most parents I talk to never even considered adoption at all, like never even entered their brain, and we have to do better than that. Tl;dr I realise you're probably American but the line of "well why not simply adopt?"  locally (Australia) shits me because the answer is "it's really loving hard, especially compared to having bio kids, and anyone suggesting it as an equally easy option obviously doesn't know much about it". Here, adoptions are increasingly difficult - from 2020-21 there were 264 total, including international. Some of that is COVID, but a lot of it is an intentional policy-shift over decades following scandals including our Stolen Generations, (where Aboriginal kids were straight up kidnapped and put into white families), and forced adoptions to kids of single mothers (where kids were straight up kidnapped and put into white families). That's in addition to international adoptions becoming increasingly strict, due to, say it with me, a bunch of kids being kidnapped and sold to white families. Our own government website notes "Each year there are many more people that want to adopt than there are children who require families." Fostering and permanent care is a lot more common than adoption, but that obviously comes with far fewer parental rights than adoption, and is just a different relationship. Also, as a response to the above, all adoptions here are open, and contact with the bio family may be legally required in some instances (which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but can turn some people off). Meanwhile, IVF is subsidised by the state for same-sex, low-income, and some other couples. So yeah, in Australia my answer to "why not consider adoption?" is "because considering it is probably about as far as you'll get". I'd probably argue we've overcorrected in limiting adoption, to the point that there are kids who really should be permanently taken out of home with parental right severed who aren't, but since I don't set the policy on it  .
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Jan 19, 2023 22:21
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My American take is that adopt vs bio is roughly the same cost of time and money Costs a lot to get a kid either way
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Jan 19, 2023 22:57
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Anyways, I like my cars like I like my kids Certified used from a dealership
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Jan 19, 2023 22:57
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Infants lose 30% value on delivery
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Jan 20, 2023 02:33
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Larry Cum Free posted:I'm seeing a doctor for ADHD meds soon and he also does vasectomies so I'm going to ask about that and hopefully truly embody my username. your psychiatrist does urology on the side? or your urologist moonlights as a psychiatrist? either way, find a board-certified urologist who does 100+ vasectomies/year and get him or her to do it. dont go to a one-stop-shop doc for an important surgical procedure
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Jan 20, 2023 13:02
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He's a MD and I don't know if he does the penis work himself or it's just a consult.
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Jan 20, 2023 16:21
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Because they're delicious Because they're half price on Friday Because the night
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Jan 20, 2023 17:01
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poo poo man why do anything smdh
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Jan 20, 2023 17:04
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