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I found out about Pentiment in the first place because of a gif of Andreas petting the dog
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Mar 7, 2023 04:45
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The dialogue between Illuminata and Andreas really is an amazing highlight of the early game (and the game in general). I remember actually going "oh wow" when it started.
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Mar 7, 2023 06:42
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I think there may be a missing animation or image for the discovery of the secret passage. Separately, I should mention that fans of this game who are also filled with the love of books may enjoy the currently unfinished historical webcomic, Family Man, by Dylan Merconis. Despite being set in a different time and dealing with different issues, there's enough overlap to recommend it to those enjoying this game and/or LP.
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Mar 7, 2023 08:02
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Oh, it's time for a quick sext already?
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Mar 7, 2023 08:19
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rope kid posted:Three Ethiopian priests were at the Council of Constance 100 years before Pentiment takes place. So yes, it's unlikely, but this entire community is fictional and I'm the boss, applesauce. That's fair enough. I was foolishly making the assumption that all churches in Ethiopia would have been Orthodox by the time of the game and thus heretical, but just because the state has a religion, that does not mean that all peoples under that state follow it.
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Mar 7, 2023 09:08
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Samovar posted:That's fair enough. I was foolishly making the assumption that all churches in Ethiopia would have been Orthodox by the time of the game and thus heretical, but just because the state has a religion, that does not mean that all peoples under that state follow it. The three Ethiopian priests that were present at Constance actually were of the Ethiopian Church too! The relationship between the Roman Catholic Church and the various Orthodox/Oriental Orthodox Churches always was more to view the latter as "schismatics" and not necessarily "heretics" (the same vice versa), so not really an irreconcilable difference in doctrine but more an estranged sibling, if that makes sense. During the 15th century the papacy put not insignificant efforts towards bridging that gap again, especially during the Council of Florence (1431-39) where delegates from all over the Christian world (including Ethiopia) came together to hash out the possibility of reunification. On paper a lot of progress was made and several high-profiles unifications were agreed on, but they didn't prove to be popular back home and ultimately fell through because of that. Ehtiopia actually would become Catholic later on, albeit only briefly for a couple of years in the 17th century when the Ethiopian Emperor would declare Roman Catholicism to be the new state religion. The Jesuit priest who was supposed to oversee the conversion was super conservative, however, and thus his attempts at suppressing local customs and Latinising the Ethiopian Church were met with great resistance until the eventual reinstation of Ethiopian Orthodoxy. There is a Ethiopian Catholic Church nowadays (established in the 19th century) which recognises papal primacy but celebrates according to the Ethiopian rite, but with only about 70,000 faithful it's pretty small.
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Mar 7, 2023 10:29
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Thanks for schooling me!
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Mar 7, 2023 12:13
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This scene more or less cemented my opinion of the game, not just for itself (and it is close to perfect), but because I once had a conversation with my sister (a librarian) about the Aeneid that went exactly this way. One of the first times, as a child, that I really thought about the role of women in fiction and in society. The Aeneid itself is probably worth a few words, given that it's generally held to be one of the classic works of literature of the ancient world. In terms of its structure, it's a lengthy poem written in dactylic hexameter, probably in conscious imitation of the Iliad (although it was not uncommon for Latin poetry). The climax of the story is summarized by the image I've quoted here and alluded to in the text; Aeneas, a Trojan, escapes from the destruction of the city by the Greeks and is informed of his destiny to found a new city. He has to contend with the gods, particularly Juno, who is not only upset about the whole apple thing that started the Trojan war but that her favorite city is going to get destroyed by the Romans in the future ("Carthago delenda est"). She arranges for his fleet to be destroyed, because that's just something that happened to heroes in the ancient world, and the remnants of his soldiers end up in Africa. Of course, he is assisted by gods as well, because that's also traditional; particularly his mother, Venus, who helps him get in good with Dido, queen of Carthage (the area in which he was shipwrecked), by arranging that she fall in love with him. There is then an extended flashback in which Aeneas explains what happened to Troy from the Trojan perspective (it was not fun) and how he'd wandered since then. He claims he wants to stay with her, but the gods remind him that he has to go found Rome, so he slips away in the night; Dido, stricken with grief, stabs herself with his sword while simultaneously lighting herself on fire. (Got to give her points for thoroughness.) Sister Illuminata is absolutely correct about Dido's role in the story. Even as a queen, her main function is to be a plot device to get Aeneas back on his feet, something he can be sad about and also use to prove his piety and devotion to duty, and incidentally an explanation of the rivalry between Rome and Carthage. This is still only the first half of the work; in the remaining half, Aeneas takes a quick trip to the underworld (again, more or less traditional for this sort of adventure) and then goes to Latium where he comprehensively fucks everything up but eventually murders all the correct people and fulfills his destiny. The poem is as much a work of propaganda as anything else; it's generally considered that it was written to create a solid mythological history of Rome and of the Roman emperors. It's probably not a surprise that it was a big hit, even though Virgil, the poet, died before finishing it. (It's relatively complete; it just needed some editing.) The opening words, arma virumque cano ("I sing of arms and the man") are often used to induce PTSD in anyone that took Latin in school.
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Mar 7, 2023 13:42
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Discendo Vox posted:I think there may be a missing animation or image for the discovery of the secret passage. Thanks for catching this. Fixed!
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Mar 7, 2023 16:43
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idonotlikepeas posted:The Aeneid itself is probably worth a few words, given that it's generally held to be one of the classic works of literature of the ancient world.
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Mar 7, 2023 18:41
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Nissin Cup Nudist posted:How much knowledge did you (or anyone that worked on the game really) have with 16th century Bavaria before making Pentiment and what was the research process like, if you dont mind So I had a lot of background knowledge going into the project, but we bolstered that considerably both with additional research and with our three PhD consultants (Christopher de Hamel, Ed Kern, and Winston Black). E: I should also add that Zoe Franznick, who joined the team in the second half of development, is a medievalist, albeit focusing in an earlier time period, and a Latinist (much better than me). She did most of the heavy lifting for the extended Latin passages in the game (I stuck to simple phrases/sentences). We also had a Latin consultant, Heather Nabbefeld, who was a classmate of mine in college and now teaches at Boston Latin School. rope kid fucked around with this message at 19:30 on Mar 7, 2023 |
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Mar 7, 2023 19:26
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Carpator Diei posted:Worth noting that it was also a heavily canonized work in the emerging humanist worldviews; the most prominent example of this is Dante, who chose Virgil as his literary guide through the Inferno because he considered him to be the most profound influence on his own approach to epic poetry (and for Dante, poetry was intimately connected with morality and piety, among other things). It's a nice detail that Sister Illuminata doesn't bother to really summarize its plot before discussing it: Since Andreas has studied, she can safely assume that he knows what the Aeneid is about. Great points. I feel like there's just enough context here for someone that isn't familiar with the work to understand what she's trying to say. (I streamed this part for some friends who hadn't read it, and they didn't seem to have any trouble.) rope kid posted:We also had a Latin consultant, Heather Nabbefeld, who was a classmate of mine in college and now teaches at Boston Latin School. An excellent school, and I'm not just saying that because that's where I learned about the Aeneid. I wonder how many games one can apply the phrase "three PhD consultants" to?
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Mar 7, 2023 21:21
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rope kid posted:I have a BA in history, focusing on the Holy Roman Empire in the early modern period (more specifically on witch-hunting). My grandmother was born in Bavaria (near Kempten) and in researching my family history I've traveled to Germany maybe a dozen times and Bavaria/the Allgäu 4 or 5 times. My dad is an artist (well, was... mostly retired now) and I learned a lot of art history through him and the books in our house. I'm fluent (but not native) in German and have a solid (reading) foundation in Latin, French, and Spanish. I was already pretty familiar with a lot of notable manuscripts and incunabula from the 13th-16th centuries and had read a lot about the development of different bookhands and the early typefaces. Back up, back up, back up. You're one of the devs for Pentiment?
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Mar 7, 2023 22:23
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Viola the Mad posted:Back up, back up, back up. You're one of the devs for Pentiment? 
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Mar 7, 2023 22:28
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Viola the Mad posted:Back up, back up, back up. You're one of the devs for Pentiment? He is also one of the devs of Pillars of Eternity 1 and 2, and often commented in those games' threads.
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Mar 7, 2023 22:58
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 dev in chat  DEV IN CHAT
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Mar 7, 2023 23:03
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If people are interested in a medieval work about how women were treated, I recommend "The Book of the City of Ladies", written in 1405 by Christine de Pizan, the daughter of Charles V's astrologer who became a poet and qitee to support herself and her daughter, after her husband, a French knight, died. The book is about her upset at the way women are portrayed and treated, who is then visited by reason, rectitude and justice, to write about all the noble and holy deeds done by ladies, and with her words, build a city for tge greatest of Ladies, the Virgin Mary, can dwell
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Mar 7, 2023 23:39
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If you choose the Bookworm background, Andreas has the option to tell Illuminata that he's read Pizan so he has at least an academic understanding of contemporary women's issues.
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Mar 7, 2023 23:47
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Quackles posted:
 Epicurius posted:If people are interested in a medieval work about how women were treated, I recommend "The Book of the City of Ladies", written in 1405 by Christine de Pizan, the daughter of Charles V's astrologer who became a poet and qitee to support herself and her daughter, after her husband, a French knight, died. This has been on my reading list for ages.
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Mar 8, 2023 00:35
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Trying to move on through the early parts and into the meat of the story, where there will be more to slow down and talk about. Part 5: Picnic With the Boys We leave the scriptorium and walk all the way past the outer abbey walls to the guest house, where Baron Rothvogel is staying. Otto, the town carpenter, was doing some work over here today, which is why he invited us to this location for lunch. When we get to the guest house, we find Martin loitering outside.   Andreas is a bit more worldly than Martin, so he has some pertinent advice.     I love how the text gets smaller.  It’s been a busy day, I’m having a break, enjoying the sun. Nothing more.   Go piss in a bucket and pour it on your head!Jesus, dude, you’re welcome. Otto and Endris are hanging out just 20 feet away.    Ah, Andreas! Good to see you. I trust Clara gave you my message. Afternoon Endris, Otto. Clara did give me your message. Sorry I missed you this morning, I was still asleep when you came by. Ahh, the abbot really lets you get away with anything, doesn’t he? Leave him be, Otto. I’m hungry - let’s pray. Here’s our first of many meal scenes. They’ll definitely get their own bonus post.  Through Christ, our Lord, amen. Amen. Protip, if you want people to like you, always start conversations by engaging with their lives rather than complaining about yours. Especially if you belong to a distinctly higher social class. Not too bad, thanks. I hurt my damned hand splitting timber to replace a bad beam in the abbot’s house. Three times per meal, we break from the conversation to select something to eat.  It’s not that bad of an injury, it just galls me that the abbot bleeds us dry and we’re expected to do work here when it suits him. Oh, it’s not all bad. I get a lot of good work from the abbey. Casting pilgrim’s badges isn’t really smithing, but I don’t mind.This suggests that different workers have very different individual experiences with their landlord, depending on their specific trade. The blacksmith has the privilege of working in his shop consistently, since the forge isn’t portable. The carpenter, on the other hand, has to go all over the place at the abbot’s whim. I’m sure he’s paid for his work, but as we will see later, there is also an opportunity cost to the village when their only carpenter is required to spend his time maintaining luxury housing for guests of the abbey. The peasants, unlike the blacksmith and the carpenter, have to live with the fact that their economic output is drastically affected by the weather. I’ll have a whole post on that later.    I don’t like the idea of Piero being pressured by anyone. He’s too old for that. He’s a nobleman. Everything must happen on their time. Just like with the abbot. His work always comes first, and drat the common folk. Well, this abbot anyway. Father Matthias was more reasonable. The late abbot was well-acquainted with the baron, you know, but he always had misgivings about him. You’ve got that right. He’s been known to fool around with young women. He’s married, of course. Otto, that’s only gossip, and it isn’t Christian to spread rumors like that. It’s not gossip that he beat up that farmer a few years back, old Rannig - may he rest in peace. Well, I wasn’t there, so I don’t know. But if he did that, yes, it speaks poorly of his character. What did you talk about, then? I mean, no offense, but what does a nobleman have in common with an artist? Right, Saint Andreas in the flesh. As if a rich bastard like him has any sense of virtue. This bitterness and envy are not good for our Christian souls, Otto. It’s not envy, Endris! No one should get away with what he does, what this abbey does. No offense to you, Andreas. I don’t have any problems with the books the abbey makes. I mean, I never did learn to read, but if people are paying the abbey to make them, it doesn’t bother me.  No, but I’m not surprised. Martin was supposed to fix that fence and he probably did a bad job at it. He’s always in a foul mood, and he could be the laziest soul in Tassing. He can’t even hold a hammer properly. Married and a father at such a young age and he barely lifts a finger for his wife or child. On top of that, he’s a damned thief. And before you say it, Endris, that’s more than just gossip. Look at him, over by the guest house. He’s probably figuring out what he can steal with the least amount of effort. Heh, especially when you look in a mirror. Speaking of the Bauers’ sheep, their ewes are shorn and the women will be spinning it soon… Otto. I got it, Endris. No need to tease. What God wants to happen will happen. Right. I’ll catch up in a moment, Endris.  I should return to work in the scriptorium. Until later. We’ve passed a couple of hours. The sky darkens, and it begins to rain.  From the guest house, we walk back up the stairs and into the abbey, and we meet Brother Mathieu.   Hello, Brother Mathieu. What are you doing out here? I thought you were aware that in addition to my role as Kiersau’s sacrist, I tend to the shrine of Saint Moritz. He is the patron of Tassing and Kiersau both, so it is my duty to ensure his reliquary is well cared for.Andreas is not particularly reverent, and he knows that he doesn’t have to be Mathieu’s best friend. Especially since he already got that advance on his pay.  Andreas, this is the hand of a saint. Do you doubt the miracles of Saint Moritz?  The Lord has protected my mind from comprehending whatever depravity you meant to imply. Despite your impish character, you really ought to learn something about the saint while you’re here.  Very well.  Saint Moritz is most widely known for his martyrdom at the hands of the Romans. He protected a town of Christians from slaughter, and in turn, he and his legion were decimated.     Yes. He was a Roman citizen, and led a legion made up entirely of Christians into Bavaria. When he refused to kill the Christians, even though they were traitors to Rome, the emperor had his legion massacred.Until this line, I was going to say that decimation was probably the correct term for the sentence passed on the legion as collective punishment, so Andreas’s pedantry was off base. But saying that the emperor had the entire legion massacred paints a whole different picture. Most of the pilgrims who visit come knowing only this, if anything, about his life. However, Tassing venerates Saint Moritz because he was the one to convert the town and save it from destruction. Indeed. He and his legion were snowed into this pass, and the townsfolk refused to aid them. The daughter of the town’s leader, Satia, was moved in spirit, and snuck from the town to convert. She led Moritz to a spring, and as soon as she was baptized, the snow melted, revealing all manner of fruits. Moritz and his legion were saved by these miraculous gifts, the town was converted, and the rebels fled into the mountains. She, too, was martyred for her faith by the rebels inhabiting the town. Now her shrine protects Tassing from harm. You are welcome, Master Maler. God bless you. Until later, brother.There’s another peasant from Tassing visiting the shrine, so we’ll take a moment to say hello.  Hello, Karl. You seem busier than usual today. I’m behind in my work. I went up to the Shrine of Saint Moritz this morning to pray for his aid. The candle I lit had all but burned away, I was there so long! Now I need to catch up. I usually go every autumn, for a good harvest. Now that Helenas’ pregnant, I’ve tried to go pray every week. Her mother had trouble in childbirth, so I’ve been paying visits to Mortiz’s hand and Satia’s shrine to pray for their aid. Thank you, Andreas. So do I.And now, back to work. In the scriptorium, we find Prior Ferenc walking around and looking over everyone’s shoulders.   You’re working like you want to see this place closed. Brother prior, I am working to the best of my abilities and I dispute your criticism. I may not be fast, but I still have my talent, praise be to God.  Many apologies, brother prior. I will work harder. You should have finished this months ago! Is your mind so corrupted by age that you didn’t notice the seasons have changed? Well, you’re not the one who will have to answer for it, so why should you care? Typical. You… impudent knave! How dare you speak to me like that? I am the master of this scriptorium. It is my place to run the scriptorium as I see fit! I agree, brother prior, Brother Piero’s work is unacceptably slow. You are insufferable, Brother Guy. Oh God, give me the patience to endure this. Please, everyone, this is my work and I accept responsibility for it. Prior Ferenc is right.The baron and the abbot appear.    It is, my lord. I can expl- No, no. I don’t want excuses. I’ve come all this way and I have to be honest, I expected more. It’s nowhere near finished and the style is… well, it’s very old fashioned. I thought I made my desires clear.  I… no, of course not, my lord. Never. We can fix this, of course. Of course. We only want to accommodate you. Ugh…gently caress this guy.   How should I respond to this? The abbot already seems annoyed.   Well, my lord, why not have Brother Guy complete it if speed is your conc- No, no. I’m not talking about the script - that’s fine - but the art, the illustrations. I want Andreas to do the others. Of… course. I mean, if Andreas is all right with it. Between the lord and the abbot, we’re not really in a position to do anything here but be polite and try to stay on their good sides. There we have it. I hope this allays your concerns, my lord. Excellent. By the way, father abbot, am I still welcome at your table for supper? Naturally, my lord. Wonderful. I’d like Andreas to join us.  Uh.. well.. that would be quite unusual. Unusual or not, I doubt that my good friend the prince-bishop would deny additional guests at his table. What do you think? I understand. Yes, you’re right, of course. Andreas may join us for supper. I look forward to it.The abbot and the baron leave, and Ferenc gets right up in Andreas’s face.  You must have put your hook in the baron when you ambushed him in town. Brother prior, Andreas is not to blame for any of this. I am. Yes you are! And you’ve embarrassed me, the abbot, and the abbey! Prior Ferenc is right, of course. No wonder we don’t get more commissions. Guy! Can you stop flattering the prior for one minute?   If you please, Sister Zdena and I would prefer it if you could keep the noise down. It sounds like Samson slaying the Philistines in here. Get back to work, everyone. Well, that was… not wonderful. But there’s nothing to be done about it now. I’ll finish my work here and wash up in the lavatorium for supper at the abbot’s table. The lavatorium is a small building in the courtyard.    I won’t be able to speak with you - none of the brothers will, but it will be good to have you with us. That’s a shame. I always enjoy our talks. Now, the same doesn’t apply to you at the abbot’s table. You can talk all you like. Though I… wouldn’t recommend it. Father abbot does not look kindly on idle chatter. Anyway, I’m sorry for how the prior treated you. It’s not fair. It’s humiliating. Oh no, no, my son. There’s no need to worry about me or my pride. And we all need a taste of humility from time to time to keep our feet on this Earth. And when you leave all of us at Kiersau Abbey behind, you can call upon your friend Lorenz, the Baron Rothvogel, to help you in your career. Don’t trouble yourself over it. Time passes for us all, things change, the future will write over the present. You need not fear it, any of it, so long as you remain true to yourself and God. Now I must hurry to the refectory to join my brothers. I will see you inside.Next time: Supper at the big table. Audience participation: How should Andreas behave at supper? Piero carefully explained that Andreas is allowed to speak but that it might irritate the abbot, so it’s pretty obvious we have some choices coming up. Is there anything in particular he should speak up about? Should he do his best to stay silent? Or should he go out of his way to be a public nuisance just for fun? s__herzog fucked around with this message at 04:35 on Mar 11, 2023 |
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Mar 9, 2023 18:56
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We should probably take our cue from the others. Presumably our new patron is going to want to talk to us, effectively giving us permission to speak as much as we want, which will give us a bit of leeway to be a jerk for fun, but we shouldn't push the abbot too far. Yet.
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Mar 9, 2023 20:08
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Hoo boy. I’m in favor of staying in friendly terms with the lord, no matter what the Abbot ends up thinking (it’s in character, too, because Andras’s knavely self can advance his own position, while getting back at the abbot in a subtle way). But, for the love of God: if the conversation turns to occultism or Martin Luther, play dumb.
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Mar 9, 2023 20:20
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Make a complete rear end of yourself. Do it as loudly and as often as possible.
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Mar 9, 2023 20:30
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I don't like how the Abbot treats the others, so gently caress him, make a fool of yourself and everyone at that dinner table.
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Mar 9, 2023 21:04
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I have been through this game too many times, and am too interested in how the thread votes, so I abstain from voting (although I might commentate later). A few observances though:s__herzog posted:
This was one of the first laugh out loud moments for me; Rapscallion is a great background and moments like this are why. This, combined with the pedantry that the Latinist background offers (and everyone so far treating such pedantry exactly how it deserves to be) is making this Andreas a great character. I have seen this LP and name it good.
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Mar 9, 2023 21:26
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Since I'm too much of a coward to select the options on my own playthroughs, be the biggest jerk possible.
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Mar 9, 2023 21:34
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One of the things I absolutely adore about this game is how so many of the background-specific dialogue choices (and not just Rapscallion) will either piss off the person you're talking to, or get a response of "shut up nerd, this is the real world, not your university." It's such a breath of fresh air from RPGs where the background-specific choice is always the correct and most persuasive one whenever it's available. Actually being persuasive in this game requires not just having the right information and background, but also actually considering who you're talking to and their background, and using that to know when to speak up and when it's better to keep your mouth shut. It's spectacularly well done.Quackles posted:But, for the love of God: if the conversation turns to occultism or Martin Luther, play dumb. 
TheOneAndOnlyT fucked around with this message at 21:59 on Mar 9, 2023 |
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Mar 9, 2023 21:51
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TheOneAndOnlyT posted:I dunno, I think this Martin Luther guy has some good ideas that deserve to be spread. Surely the abbot is capable of defending his position in a reasoned intellectual debate? Also put in a good word for Piero, if possible.
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Mar 9, 2023 23:23
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TheGreatEvilKing posted:Also put in a good word for Piero, if possible. If it would be alright, OP, even though you didn't ask, I would also like to vote to be as nice as possible to Piero at all times. Oh, and: s__herzog posted:
The Dictionary posted:pentimento (n): a reappearance in a painting of an original drawn or painted element which was eventually painted over by the artist 
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Mar 10, 2023 00:23
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Quackles posted:But, for the love of God: if the conversation turns to occultism or Martin Luther, play dumb. TheGreatEvilKing posted:Also put in a good word for Piero, if possible.
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Mar 10, 2023 02:59
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I'll vote for be as diplomatic as possible, but favor making the Baron happy over the Abbot.
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Mar 10, 2023 03:07
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Be polite and friendly, but err on the side of being nice to Lorenz. Also, be nice to Piero whenever possible.
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Mar 10, 2023 04:35
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Jokymi posted:I'll vote for be as diplomatic as possible, but favor making the Baron happy over the Abbot. 
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Mar 10, 2023 04:35
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Piero is cool and we should be cool to him whenever possible, also be polite at the supper but do not talk about Martin Luther.
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Mar 10, 2023 05:00
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I hadn't selected Latinist as a background, so when Mathieu said that Lorentz and his men were decimated, I thought he was using it correctly. Knowing he hosed it up is tres amusant. ...it reminds me a bit of seeing examples of notes in medieval manuscripts of the monks bitching about their everyday lives instead of just copying and copying texts. It's... Stuff like that which really makes them seem like real people.
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Mar 10, 2023 07:07
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I selected Latinist, Logician, Bookworm and Law Degree for my playthrough and I was the smarmiest bastard ever.
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Mar 10, 2023 07:22
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The Illuminata book section was what really convinced me that this game was something special. As for dinner...Quackles posted:I’m in favor of staying in friendly terms with the lord, no matter what the Abbot ends up thinking (it’s in character, too, because Andras’s knavely self can advance his own position, while getting back at the abbot in a subtle way). And also: TheOneAndOnlyT posted:I dunno, I think this Martin Luther guy has some good ideas that deserve to be spread. Surely the abbot is capable of defending his position in a reasoned intellectual debate?
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Mar 10, 2023 07:53
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Samovar posted:I hadn't selected Latinist as a background, so when Mathieu said that Lorentz and his men were decimated, I thought he was using it correctly. Knowing he hosed it up is tres amusant. 
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Mar 10, 2023 08:16
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I'd rather not get contact embarrassment from an LP, so I'd prefer to not be a dick or a useless pedant. However, s__herzog, I also want to be sure that, for the benefit of the LP, you are aware of the following smilie:
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Mar 10, 2023 10:52
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I think Andreas is still too young and naive and may be a jerk that doesn't really think through the consequences of his words. Can't learn to be tactful until you make a complete rear end of yourself first a couple times. Not putting this on you s__herzog, but I wonder if this is the type of LP that would benefit from having an abbreviated 'alternate timeline' view of the complete opposite choices once you're further along. I think some of the differences end up being quite stark.
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Mar 10, 2023 11:01
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