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CodFishBalls posted:My take is this isn't HPD, this is Honda Japan/HRC going "you're wasting how much money for what return?!" It’s possible, but in the article is the following quote:”Yes, [adding a third engine make] would change our outlook quite a bit,” Schifsky said. “If you imagine we’re now supplying 15 or 16 or 17 cars, if that drops down to say nine or 10, that will definitely reduce our costs and improve the return.” Which has been their argument for a while.
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Dec 12, 2023 02:05
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this might be a naive and smoothbrained take, but the v6tt (plus hybrid i guess) formula indy runs isn't too far from a lot of other series, right? Is the ROI (or i guess rate of loss because lmao at profiting from a racing team) just not good enough to draw anyone in?
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Dec 12, 2023 02:17
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Spaced God posted:this might be a naive and smoothbrained take, but the v6tt (plus hybrid i guess) formula indy runs isn't too far from a lot of other series, right? Is the ROI (or i guess rate of loss because lmao at profiting from a racing team) just not good enough to draw anyone in? They’re a bit special in terms of the packaging, for one, plus there’s been development down this path for a while by Honda and Chevy. The real thing is both OEMs want another partner, who will develop an engine that gets to parity with the current ones, but not somebody who then turns it into an arms race. Notably this is what happened in the DTM pre-pandemic, BMW joined and upset a happy working agreement Mercedes and Audi had.
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Dec 12, 2023 02:34
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CodFishBalls posted:My take is this isn't HPD, this is Honda Japan/HRC going "you're wasting how much money for what return?!" They aren’t exactly pleased about the 2.4L engine being cancelled (reading between the lines the Chevy engine was not up to par.) and the fact that they had to re-engineer Mahle’s Hybrid system.
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Dec 12, 2023 02:35
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Spaced God posted:this might be a naive and smoothbrained take, but the v6tt (plus hybrid i guess) formula indy runs isn't too far from a lot of other series, right? Is the ROI (or i guess rate of loss because lmao at profiting from a racing team) just not good enough to draw anyone in? Honda's LMDh/GTP Acura engine is a detuned version of the 2.4L engine they were developing for what was supposed to be the new Indycar formula before it got dropped, otherwise it's weird/different enough from other series that everyone seems to think they'd need to start a program from scratch. I don't know why Indycar shouldn't adopt the same formula as Superformula, just with the boost turned up a bit. Would probably instantly net them Toyota, although I guess Chevy might not be happy.
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Dec 12, 2023 02:38
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followup idiot question: Is the specialization in the package just fitting it into the DW12 chassis and getting it to run at the boosts/rpms required for speedways and indy? I'm showing my real lack of car knowledge over a decade into this sport lmao
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Dec 12, 2023 02:41
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Yeah the engines are "stressed members," essentially part of the chassis. You either make your block the exact special snowflake dimensions to serve that role or you have to make an adapter (with the engine smaller as needed to fit into the adapter). That's a big part of the corner Indycar is backed into, they can't change the engine formula significantly without a new chassis, and if they want to change the chassis without changing the engine yet then they have to make the new chassis work with the current engines and any potential new formulas down the road. And changing both at the same time would cause the owners to riot.
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Dec 12, 2023 02:48
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Pretty much, yes. Marshall Pruett did a bunch of videos last year of the then-brand-new LMDh cars and the Acura with the should've-been-shared engine had a dramatically smaller powertrain than everyone else. Ignoring MSR's tire fuckery, having a drivetrain that small in a car with that much room in a series where you'll get BoP adjustments anyway, isn't inherently an advantage. So everyone else went with much larger engines, both in terms of displacement and overall packaging. The DW12's engine bay is small. The current engines fit inside a very small and tightly constrained volume. I don't think there are any rule allowances for a different engine cowling, and even if there were, the drag penalty for an engine without a power gain would be an absolute non-starter for teams today. Penske didn't mind running a bigger cowling over the Beast because they had 100hp+ on the field to offset it. Then the last of it is down to just surviving Indy. It's the only 500-mile race and it's the only true superspeedway race. Even at Texas they're lifting more than at Indy; Indy is as close to 500 miles of wide open throttle as it gets. Yet we've been blessed with an obscenely reliable era in Indycar with the current engine formula. Personally, if it comes down to losing engine suppliers, I think the Super Formula option is an intriguing one. They make 550hp on 102 octane gasoline. I vote the series figures out a way to greenwash methanol as carbon capture, and run Super Formula specs with no boost limit. Drivers should have the option to risk sending a piston into low earth orbit to win the 500. edit: and also that, Indycar's steadfast refusal to do anything more than The Bare loving Minimum means they are trying to court fans, owners, and engine suppliers who all have conflicting interests.
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Dec 12, 2023 02:54
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IOwnCalculus posted:Pretty much, yes. Marshall Pruett did a bunch of videos last year of the then-brand-new LMDh cars and the Acura with the should've-been-shared engine had a dramatically smaller powertrain than everyone else. Ignoring MSR's tire fuckery, having a drivetrain that small in a car with that much room in a series where you'll get BoP adjustments anyway, isn't inherently an advantage. So everyone else went with much larger engines, both in terms of displacement and overall packaging. Irrespective of that though the Acura was very competitive.
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Dec 12, 2023 03:25
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CodFishBalls posted:My take is this isn't HPD, this is Honda Japan/HRC going "you're wasting how much money for what return?!" That and the fact that there really isn't an independent HPD anymore: https://www.indycar.com/news/2023/09/09-21-hpd-hrc
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Dec 12, 2023 03:42
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Frond posted:Irrespective of that though the Acura was very competitive. Sure, but not by enough over the other LMDh drivetrains to justify what is probably a considerably more expensive engine than what everyone else is using. Which would have been easier to justify if it had been able to use the Indycar engines to benefit from some economies of scale.
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Dec 12, 2023 23:33
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Thank y'all for explaining, that all makes a lot of sense but man indycar painted themselves into a corner
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Dec 12, 2023 23:36
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Spaced God posted:Thank y'all for explaining, that all makes a lot of sense but man indycar painted themselves into a corner It's a series that is haunted by the ghosts of 2008, 1996, and 1979.
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Dec 13, 2023 04:39
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Spaced God posted:Thank y'all for explaining, that all makes a lot of sense but man indycar painted themselves into a corner And they keep justifying it with "but the racing is the best" which is true... but clearly it doesn't matter given the low TV ratings and empty stands at half the calendar.
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Dec 13, 2023 04:44
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indy is objectively better racing than f1 but i think the market for non-nascar motorsports in the us is probably only a couple million people, best case, and f1 is a slicker product i think a lot of people like seeing shiny things go fast but any kind of racing that isn't in the fast and the furious is difficult for a lot for usa-type people to understand the milk machine fucked around with this message at 05:57 on Dec 13, 2023 |
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Dec 13, 2023 05:51
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Spaced God posted:Thank y'all for explaining, that all makes a lot of sense but man indycar painted themselves into a corner I feel like they’re trying to both settle in after the Penske purchase still, and also feeling the repercussions of COVID. Because without the pandemic, I would imagine we have hybrid engines already and a new chassis on the horizon. This at least feels like less of a panic situation than 1996 or 2008, though, honestly. I know Honda just went public with that, but I still wouldn’t get too worried. There’s almost too many cars, and the biggest issue is “we need a third engine OEM to spread costs out more.” They’re trying to figure out how to grow, not survive, and that’s a key difference.
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Dec 13, 2023 08:49
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https://racer.com/2023/12/13/hondas-proposal-to-help-contain-indycar-engine-supply-costs/ Honda's solution? Stop building engines, just faux badge them and have a somewhat customized software for the engines. Crate engines, crate hybrids, it's one way of cutting costs I suppose.
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Dec 14, 2023 00:49
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what I said about not being worried? HPD - which was setup purely to make engines for IndyCar - saying they should just badge a spec Ilmor engine is worrying, not because of what they will do, but for what it represents of a cultural shift. HPD was recently absorbed into HRC, but that happening is only half the battle - not being able to justify the costs as marketing in IndyCar is a bigger issue. to be generous you could say "they're seeing how costs are kept down in IMSA GTP and what returns that allows," which is true, but...to cut from the engineering side? For Honda? Dang. I wonder if a compromise is also opening up to the OEMs the hybrid components in the future. Otherwise, there won't be any fight on this ground until ICEs are dead and buried, I'm afraid.
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Dec 14, 2023 01:03
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CodFishBalls posted:https://racer.com/2023/12/13/hondas-proposal-to-help-contain-indycar-engine-supply-costs/ Honda built a new 2.4 liter engine for indycar and IMSA, and then Indycar didn't adopt the new formula so it's just in the IMSA cars. The reason they didn't adopt it was that Illmor couldn't seem to finish the new engine on a timeline. I think Honda is extremely pissed off here, if they're now suggesting illmor should just build everything.
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Dec 14, 2023 06:07
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https://twitter.com/jul13_48/status/1737888425418654027 Kind of not surprised.
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Dec 23, 2023 23:15
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Context?
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Dec 27, 2023 22:33
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I'm not sure what possible context there is beyond what's already provided.
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Dec 28, 2023 11:36
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Ah I had to click through to Twitter to see those were screenshots from Danica’s Instagram.
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Dec 28, 2023 14:25
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loving hell, reports that Gil de Ferran has died https://twitter.com/gefersonkern/status/1740891354975310006
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Dec 30, 2023 02:13
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harperdc posted:loving hell, reports that Gil de Ferran has died IMS and Penske have statements out confirming. Sad day.
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Dec 30, 2023 04:52
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So what's the general thread lean on teams? I have a visceral dislike of anything Penske that stems from originally being an Andretti Green stan and now a CGR fan.
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Jan 15, 2024 23:32
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Qualifying for round 1 is on Peacock right now. Reminder that most of the chatter is now on Discord!
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Mar 9, 2024 20:28
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Very glad to see Rosenqvist driving a rocket ship at MSR!
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Mar 9, 2024 23:08
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oh good lord, we got cheatin' news folksquote:The IndyCar Series has disqualified Josef Newgarden from the season-opening race in St. Petersburg which he won handily, disqualified teammate Scott McLaughlin from third and penalized Will Power with the loss of 10 points after determining Team Penske, the team owned by IndyCar Series owner Roger Penske, violated the series’ push-to-pass rules. Bolding added by me. Because holy poo poo, this could wind up being an intricate cheat. 
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Apr 24, 2024 16:21
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pato's greatest victory imo
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Apr 24, 2024 16:33
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God drat cheating penske 
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Apr 24, 2024 18:58
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harperdc posted:oh good lord, we got cheatin' news folks From what the team said it sounded like they had software from the recent hybrid test loaded that allowed P2P at any time, and it was discovered when one of them used P2P during warmup at long beach.
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Apr 24, 2024 20:38
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MazeOfTzeentch posted:From what the team said it sounded like they had software from the recent hybrid test loaded that allowed P2P at any time, and it was discovered when one of them used P2P during warmup at long beach. "It was the hybrids, honest" reeks a bit too much of "my dog ate my homework". Because that doesn't explain why both Scott and Josef used it, since they shouldn't have expected anything to happen. Pruett's article removes just about all doubt in my mind about it being intentional. I just don't get how the series was so blind as to miss it.
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Apr 25, 2024 00:21
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Oh yeah I don't doubt it was intentionally left in.
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Apr 25, 2024 02:51
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IOwnCalculus posted:"It was the hybrids, honest" reeks a bit too much of "my dog ate my homework". Because that doesn't explain why both Scott and Josef used it, since they shouldn't have expected anything to happen. Although Will, with the same software, did not.
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Apr 25, 2024 09:54
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https://x.com/ZBrownCEO/status/1783774587454394476
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Apr 26, 2024 12:38
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Is Georgina ok? 
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Apr 28, 2024 19:49
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Theophany posted:Is Georgina ok? Short a hand and some forearm, but appears otherwise ok. https://twitter.com/By_NathanBrown/status/1784690817103217099
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Apr 29, 2024 01:28
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