|
I believe I've pushed back on the random, pointless denigration of Commander in the main Magic thread. I don't recall a serious blowup over commander happening in recent memory. I do allow people to express opinions if they're not being unnecessarily hostile, so if someone says they don't like all the commander cards in this set, I think that should be allowed. I've just done a search in the reports forum and I found two cases of reports on people having to do with Commander. One of them I issued a probation on that post; the other, I made a short one-sentence request to not gatekeep, the poster in question immediately snapped back, and Antivehicular issued a probation on that post. Do you always go back after a day to the bad posts you report and check to see if they got a probation? We're not on duty 24/7 so that sort of thing can easily escape notice, especially for a sixer.
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2023 03:05
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 4, 2024 00:27 |
|
|
My two cents - if this is a thing that's actively disrupting conversations, please send in reports and we'll take a fresh look at it, promise. It's ok to not like a thing, but it doesn't help anyone to go over the top about it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2023 03:19
|
|
|
Podima posted:This is a tricky one, since for example Pelgrane using AI images is a valid topic for industry chat (I think that's where I read it last night), and same for Paizo's company statement to the contrary earlier in the month so a total quarantine doesn't make sense. I definitely agree it's exhausting to see the same AI art discourse again and again tho and there are other places for that, if you can toss us a report when this crops up it's easy enough to help redirect. I thought we could circle back on this now that AI discussion made that thread bad.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2023 03:26
|
|
|
Ominous Jazz posted:I thought we could circle back on this now that AI discussion made that thread bad. LF and I were actually just talking about this in our team thread, it's a good shout! We'll get that re-railed - discussing AI as it pertains to the game industry in that thread makes sense (which is where it started), but now that the conversation's headed into general discussion of Ethics in AI Art it could probably be rehomed elsewhere.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2023 03:30
|
|
|
mellonbread posted:This would be cool. When was the last one? The last one I'm aware of was in 2019, which was a sequel to one from 2017. Most of them were around the early-mid 00s. I wouldn't mind seeing a comeback 
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2023 04:18
|
|
|
Kai Tave posted:every edition of D&D has an outsized influence on the hobby by virtue of being D&D. I'm not sure how moderatable this issue is? The issue is rarely any one post, but the aggregate effect of people wanting to say something about the Huge Dragon in the room. I'm not usually a fan of mods going "hey stop talking about this here, talk about this over there instead" because honestly none of these topics are actually worth restarting, but maybe the Industry thread could be split into "Hobby History (it's dungeons all the way down)" and "Industry News (sex pest central)".
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2023 07:08
|
|
|
Podima posted:LF and I were actually just talking about this in our team thread, it's a good shout! We'll get that re-railed - discussing AI as it pertains to the game industry in that thread makes sense (which is where it started), but now that the conversation's headed into general discussion of Ethics in AI Art it could probably be rehomed elsewhere. Yeah I have been posting in that thread about AI art so I didn't want to make a decision about when that discussion should stop. It's kind of a bad look to be like "OK I got in the last word, now everyone shut up." If Podima thinks it should be done now I'm good with that.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2023 07:12
|
|
|
Leperflesh posted:Yeah I have been posting in that thread about AI art so I didn't want to make a decision about when that discussion should stop. It's kind of a bad look to be like "OK I got in the last word, now everyone shut up." If Podima thinks it should be done now I'm good with that. I know this is a difficult balance to strike, but you post so much you can't honestly not moderate the threads you post in. You need to either loosen up and be a geek tyrant, or post less, and I really like your posts so I know which one I'd prefer.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2023 07:36
|
|
|
Leperflesh posted:What we do not have is a general D&D thread, for people to go who want to endlessly compare and contrast all editions of D&D in a constructive and calm way that totally isn't just endless edition warring. When I've suggested having a thread like that in the past, people seemed pretty convinced that it'd just be endless edition warring, and therefor bad. But the result is that people who still actually want to compare and contrast editions of D&D don't have an obvious place to do that, and so it winds up in industries, chat, and sometimes 5e threads, and lately also in the D&D Next thread. I don't think you were asking me specifically, but just in case you were, my question would be 'why do people want to compare and contrast editions of D&D?' There are probably useful and potentially fruitful conversations there about approaches to game design &c, but if it's just a pissing contest about which edition is best edition then that's certainly something I will eagerly scroll past. I recognize it's a hazy line to moderate, but there's a point at which 4e being part of a discussion (when the conversation is about game mechanics or something 4e is certainly at least as relevant as bringing up WEG d6 or DC Heroes or whatever else) changes to 4e *becoming* the discussion, and it's at that point that I would prefer it move to the 4e thread.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2023 12:41
|
|
|
Siivola posted:I'm not sure how moderatable this issue is? The issue is rarely any one post, but the aggregate effect of people wanting to say something about the Huge Dragon in the room. I'm not usually a fan of mods going "hey stop talking about this here, talk about this over there instead" because honestly none of these topics are actually worth restarting, but maybe the Industry thread could be split into "Hobby History (it's dungeons all the way down)" and "Industry News (sex pest central)". Yeah you've nailed it, it's almost never cut and dry when a topic has overstayed its welcome and it's time to suggest the thread moves on. I'd say if you (or anyone really!) wanted to spin up a Hobby History thread for general discussion of the overall history of Trad Games (with a dash of edition discourse), it'd make a good addition alongside the Industry thread becoming a bit more focused ideally.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2023 13:07
|
|
|
Podima posted:My two cents - if this is a thing that's actively disrupting conversations, please send in reports and we'll take a fresh look at it, promise. It's ok to not like a thing, but it doesn't help anyone to go over the top about it. I stopped reading the thread because it's so hostile. If people are doing that then number of reports becomes a less useful metric. I'm not going to start reading the thread again just to report posts
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2023 14:02
|
|
|
Tarnop posted:I stopped reading the thread because it's so hostile. If people are doing that then number of reports becomes a less useful metric. I'm not going to start reading the thread again just to report posts Not to drag anything back up, but I received the same feedback from people when the Board Game Thread was having its multi-month off-and-on meltdown. People just stopped looking at the thread. Now, the moderation team has a few new faces which is welcome. It might be different now, but it's unsurprising that a failure to act on reports means there will simply not be new reports as goons lose faith in the feature.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2023 14:31
|
|
|
dwarf74 posted:I'm an IK but I hardly do poo poo because mostly you goons are well behaved. If I should do more random 6ers, let me know. I feel like I have failed a grand tradition. This is my experience as well. I think I've handed down one 6er. Usually I can just tell folks to chill and they do. paper bag with a face posted:I regret to inform this thread that new information has come to light. This is not an issue. What we should really discuss is: should Podima watch Prometheus? Tsilkani posted:The reason this happens with 4e and no other game is because no other game has ever had such a wide variety of weird made-up nonsense said about it that is still getting pushed decades later. Most of the derails happen because someone comes into a thread and drops one of the many anti-4e edition war talking points, and then people correct them. Ehh, even anodyne stuff that isn't really critical of 4E like "the books don't make for great toilet reading" will sometimes get pushback like it's some sort of grave insult. A general D&D history/discussion/edition discussion thread could be very interesting.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2023 16:54
|
|
|
Hey everyone. I'm happy to announce that thread regular Framboise has agreed to volunteer as an IK for the Magic thread. They're in the queue to get their buttons shortly. Thank you, Framboise! I reached out to them a while ago so this is not a reaction to conversations in this feedback thread, although it's timely I think!
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2023 17:16
|
|
|
Leperflesh posted:Hey everyone. I'm happy to announce that thread regular Framboise has agreed to volunteer as an IK for the Magic thread. They're in the queue to get their buttons shortly. Thank you, Framboise! I reached out to them a while ago so this is not a reaction to conversations in this feedback thread, although it's timely I think! That is an excellent choice. Please don't hang them out to dry.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2023 17:39
|
|
|
I agree, good choice
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2023 17:47
|
|
|
Siivola posted:You have this pattern of posting in good faith on charged topics, and then not moderating those topics when they take a turn for the bad. I sincerely think this is a bad habit, because you end up leaving a bunch of bad posting unaddressed. You even admit doing it every time it happens, which is at least as bad a look as "okay this isn't where I hoped this discussion would go, let's drop it" would be. Huh. Well I can't say I've heard this from anyone before, but it's interesting! I have seen basically the opposite complaint a lot in old QCS and current SAD threads, so I felt like the general vibe on SA was that mods shouldn't try to moderate (especially) heated conversations they're already taking part in. We do have two other mods, and I am happy to let them take over in these cases... but I do not want to wind up leaving bad posting unaddressed. I guess I worry that I'm the one doing the bad posting, sometimes, and that people might hesitate to point it out for fear of retaliation if I make a habit of using buttons after riling people up in some way. Tarnop posted:I stopped reading the thread because it's so hostile. If people are doing that then number of reports becomes a less useful metric. I'm not going to start reading the thread again just to report posts It is a rowdy thread even when things are going normally. I don't know if it's because Magic is itself an adversarial game, or if it's because there's a lot of posters whose "regular" subforums outside of TG are more like that, or if it's just a long-term entrenched legacy of the magic megathreads. My sense is that compared to three years ago things are a lot better, but that's my sense. I know Toshimo disagrees and I don't totally discount that! I don't know if everyone does or not, really. I have gotten a PM or two in the last couple of years that suggest at least a few people think things are better. My goal is to be on a gradual pathway towards a friendlier Magic community on SA, or at least a main Magic thread that is as friendly as the Commander thread is today. I will say this: a fair bit of my moderation activity is invisible, because my first instinct when someone I know can be a good contributor is having an issue is to reach out to them and talk. Sometimes it's as simple as a "settle down, thread" post in a thread, I'll do that when it's several people going at each other a bit, but if it's one person I am likely to send a PM and try to have a conversation. That often gets good results and my experience has been that most of us really just want the threads we post in to be better, people want to cooperate and be part of that. But if you were reading the thread and you saw a poster blow up you might not realize anything was done besides the thread just moving on after a bit. Nobody else can see that I sent PMs and hashed something out with a poster.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2023 17:58
|
|
|
I want to point out that in relation to "The 4e Derail" that happened most recently in the TG Industry thread, the thread was already well derailed away into other discussion first because the other pet topic of a lot of posters came up: "Powered By the Apocalypse Games Are Not Hard to Understand." Shifting back into talking about the constructive pros and cons of 3e/4e/5e and theoretical 6e revisions was more on topic, given the hot discussion was how WotC was face-planting and Paizo once again swooped into the end zone for easy points. There are useful things to analyze about the mirrored trajectories in how 4e tried to make a closed system and the community revolted, and the second attempt with One D&D. And I don't know, I think the thread wouldn't have lost the plot as bad if there hadn't been 3 preceding pages of people trying to explain how PBtA works to the unwashed masses. And I like lots of PBtA games, but I was definitely skimming that portion of discussion a lot more than the D&D stuff.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2023 19:24
|
|
|
Roll d6: 1) (d6)th edition is best D&D 2) (game designer) is a horrible person 3) wizards are broken 4) PbtA is easy 5) (game company) are horrible employers 6) AI is unethical
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2023 22:22
|
|
|
hyphz posted:Roll d6: code:Splicer fucked around with this message at 00:28 on Mar 17, 2023 |
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2023 00:13
|
|
|
Tarnop posted:I stopped reading the thread because it's so hostile. If people are doing that then number of reports becomes a less useful metric. I'm not going to start reading the thread again just to report posts Magnetic North posted:Not to drag anything back up, but I received the same feedback from people when the Board Game Thread was having its multi-month off-and-on meltdown. People just stopped looking at the thread. Now, the moderation team has a few new faces which is welcome. It might be different now, but it's unsurprising that a failure to act on reports means there will simply not be new reports as goons lose faith in the feature. I totally get where you two are coming from, and things were not as good as they could have been in the past! What I can say is that we're continuing to improve, between adding additional mods, keeping a closer eye on threads that have needed nudges here and there, adding Framboise as the MtG IK, various behind-the-scenes things like Leperflesh mentioned - and of course opening this feedback thread to keep the conversation open and ongoing. All I ask is that you be amenable to the effort we're putting in to keep doing better. 
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2023 00:15
|
|
|
Tsilkani posted:The reason this happens with 4e and no other game is because no other game has ever had such a wide variety of weird made-up nonsense said about it that is still getting pushed decades later. Most of the derails happen because someone comes into a thread and drops one of the many anti-4e edition war talking points, and then people correct them. I want to point out that also the pro-4e contingent here is also really, really defensive to the point of having a bunch of their own weird made-up nonsense about people or companies who didn't like 4e. The last time 4e came up in the industry thread we had to spend how much time talking people down from the idea that Paizo was secretly fomenting a culture war to promote Pathfinder 1e over 4e? There was other poo poo like that, but that's what I remember most. And when there was the recent discussion about the "default" setting of D&D (I think that was in the industry thread but it might have been the general chat thread), which was a bunch of people throwing around really bad incorrect ideas of D&D's history, what settings were popular and when, and what's been merchandised over the years. It doesn't help to replace more common bad talking points with homegrown ones, and that's been a big big problem in creating actual discussion here about those topics. Frankly, it's exhausting to talk here for me, because even when it's topics I'm knowledgeable about, it's a ton of poo poo from people who are just stuck in ideas of "Pathfinder bad and regressive" and "FR boring and outdated." I end up spending more time trying to correct people's bad misconceptions instead of talking about whatever was interesting in the first place. That's why I just skipped even getting involved in the discussion of "D&D's default setting." And we frequently have people from that 4e crew (and I'm not going to name names unless specifically asked by a mod) who will go in on any conversation topic or system they don't like and poo poo on it if it doesn't meet their specific shibboleths about what a better D&D or D&D-alike is like. You can't discuss ideas or systems that make for better fantasy RPGs or would improve 5e without "well, while D&D has ability scores still it's poo poo anyway" even if you're discussing better models for ability scores to work in D&D, for example.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2023 05:07
|
|
|
Lmao, honestly this forum has the best moderation of any traditional games forum on the internet. I'm cool with how things are.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2023 06:23
|
|
|
trapstar posted:Lmao, honestly this forum has the best moderation of any traditional games forum on the internet. I'm cool with how things are. Me too, personally! No complaints here - although then again, I don't post in some of the big threads like MTG, so I'm probably not getting the whole picture. Either way, Leper, Pod and the gang have been doing well in my books
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2023 06:43
|
|
|
Leperflesh posted:I will say this: a fair bit of my moderation activity is invisible, because my first instinct when someone I know can be a good contributor is having an issue is to reach out to them and talk.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2023 07:29
|
|
|
Leperflesh posted:I will say this: a fair bit of my moderation activity is invisible, because my first instinct when someone I know can be a good contributor is having an issue is to reach out to them and talk. Sometimes it's as simple as a "settle down, thread" post in a thread, I'll do that when it's several people going at each other a bit, but if it's one person I am likely to send a PM and try to have a conversation. That often gets good results and my experience has been that most of us really just want the threads we post in to be better, people want to cooperate and be part of that. But if you were reading the thread and you saw a poster blow up you might not realize anything was done besides the thread just moving on after a bit. Nobody else can see that I sent PMs and hashed something out with a poster. I'd like to say that the fact things get caught quickly and early enough that a "settle down folks" or a quiet PM solves things is also, in my opinion, a sign of having your finger on the pulse of the forum, because if you can solve things that way, you often must've caught them in the run-up, rather than several days later when an infinite blood-vendetta has been declared over a piece of setting trivia regarding gnomes.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2023 08:12
|
|
|
Arivia posted:You can't discuss ideas or systems that make for better fantasy RPGs or would improve 5e without "well, while D&D has ability scores still it's poo poo anyway" even if you're discussing better models for ability scores to work in D&D, for example. Yeah, it'd be nice to talk about where D&D can and should go without DTAS always popping up. DTAS is good smart design thinking, but it's also the kind of place D&D can't go because ability scores are some of the most sacred of its cows.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2023 16:35
|
|
|
PurpleXVI posted:I'd like to say that the fact things get caught quickly and early enough that a "settle down folks" or a quiet PM solves things is also, in my opinion, a sign of having your finger on the pulse of the forum, because if you can solve things that way, you often must've caught them in the run-up, rather than several days later when an infinite blood-vendetta has been declared over a piece of setting trivia regarding gnomes. I'm going to fight you in the back alley now over gnomish hooked hammers
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2023 16:48
|
|
|
Podima posted:I'm going to fight you in the back alley now over gnomish hooked hammers I'm not going to duel someone who hasn't even watched Aliens.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2023 16:53
|
|
|
God drat it  THIS WEEKEND.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2023 17:01
|
|
|
Podima posted:God drat it If u don't it will be, "Game Over"
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2023 20:05
|
|
|
As far as an "edition warring" discussion goes, or other hyper specific debates on D&D rules across editions, setting lore shifts, etc. I think things have gotten better, tone-wise. I do think there's times people lapse into "D&D is a game with regressive rules = it says something about your own politics or moral compass" but not nearly as much or as hard. Time passing, people cooling down, the influx of new people with no context on the old poo poo coming into the hobby, etc. helped a lot. Arivia talked about people conflating or misrepresenting some factoids and... well I don't know if it's deliberate. Some of it is cargo culted knowledge or straight up misremembering things at least. I can't recall seeing anyone pitch a hard fit or dig in on a misconception if they're corrected at least. It is a lot of work to try to adjust that sort of thing, but maybe if discussion's concentrated in one thread it'd be easier to point someone back to old discussion on the matter, too? So yeah maybe having a D&D lore/edition discussion thread would be helpful? Calling it an "edition war" thread doesn't feel fair when I don't think there's that many people left who are intensely mad or aggressive about that stuff. It should be a thread that at least has an IK watching it to keep it on track, but I think it could be useful to funnel TG Industry/Chat/5e/One D&D digressions into it if it keeps the thread productive and interesting. But like some other people already said, the worst that can happen is it turns out to be a mistake. Gas the thread, ban the top 20 posters. etc. 
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2023 20:12
|
|
|
I'm like 80% sure the Industry thread was created as an edition war containment zone in the first place.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2023 20:27
|
|
|
dwarf74 posted:I'm like 80% sure the Industry thread was created as an edition war containment zone in the first place. Nominally it was started as a way to talk about TTRPG industry or hobby stuff because that's what grognards.txt had partially functioned as, but without the "gotta find more things to mock or enemies to own" energy of grognards.txt. Functionally that did mean inheriting a lot of commentary on D&D and its editions, but it hasn't been a center focus for a long time. Big moments in 5e's lifetime or in this One D&D transition have come up there, but the nitty-gritty chatter has pretty naturally funneled back into topic-specific threads.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2023 20:44
|
|
|
IIRC, Gau made the first Industry thread to talk about making games and running game businesses, which was a thing some goons were doing at the time; but within a few pages it became a place to discuss goings-on and news in the industry too. It has at times been a containment zone for contentious argumentation about major industry keystones like games workshop, wizards, kickstarter, etc. to help keep the threads about those companies' games from getting derailed too much. I think it has evolved into a good place for finding out who the worst actors are, posting news, and providing a space for those discussions with particular moderator attention. Also, lmao someone talked Podima into becoming an admin!
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2023 01:08
|
|
|
Guess he's neve watching Alien, now.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2023 01:12
|
|
|
lol yeah, real blunder on my part right? Much like VideoGames I'm gonna continue to help keep an eye on Trad Games, you're not getting rid of me that easy. I won't be following his example by changing my username to TradGames though, sorry! (I'll still watch Aliens this weekend though  )
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2023 01:14
|
|
|
Podima posted:(I'll still watch Aliens this weekend though Don't worry fellow trad gamers, I'll do my best to keep Podima honest!  (i.e. pester him in the mod forum whenever he posts, until he provides confirmation that Aliens has been viewed... as well as maybe providing a brief essay on his thoughts on the duology)
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2023 01:28
|
|
|
It's hard not to draw a causal line between watching Alien and becoming an administrator.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2023 01:32
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 4, 2024 00:27 |
|
|
This should get cross linked here so tg posters are aware if they want to contribute: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=4027368&perpage=40&noseen=1 Podima apparently ran some off-site Discord games after recruiting here. Allegations are an active disregard for safety tools, intentionally isolating players, and using the first two to facilitate sexual assault roleplaying.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2023 03:40
|
|