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Fwiw I do think it's very cringe to compare some internet randoms ineffectually trying to dunk on posters for generating a six fingered spacemarine to being subject to racism
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Jun 10, 2023 18:03
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Bottom Liner posted:Ban all OC, AI or otherwise. Banish it all to the thread where people post about their dreams. Harsh, but fair.
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Jun 10, 2023 18:06
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Nuns with Guns posted:I am going to do the most dangerous move in wrestling on AI art. Tombstone piledriver is your best bet, lots of people know what it is. If you’re looking to resonate with the real obsessives I would recommend the Burning Hammer. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ah2e64-VcxQ There are times when I question the ethics of supporting pro wrestling but it’s probably getting better.
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Jun 10, 2023 18:08
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Ethically at least it ain't sumo
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Jun 10, 2023 18:09
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Raenir Salazar posted:I think it's more that some people feel kinda upset in that they feel like they're being unfairly targeted and thus prone to posting absurd things in anger; like many people have on the other side of the argument as well. But sure I agree that maybe a mod could've said, "Hey guys I know you're feeling angry but please tone it down you aren't helping your case." Asking for bans or "brutally destroying" people seems egregious though. Feeling bad that someone called you a dipshit doesn't mean you can claim you're being racially persecuted or being led into the ovens. What the gently caress. This is not a "both sides are right" situation man...
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Jun 10, 2023 18:21
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Fuzz posted:Yeah we should put them in the oven and gas them. maybe you should ask chat gpt if making this post was a good idea
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Jun 10, 2023 18:27
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Thanlis posted:Tombstone piledriver is your best bet, lots of people know what it is. If you’re looking to resonate with the real obsessives I would recommend the Burning Hammer. Thank you, I've also been given feedback suggesting the Styles Clash https://images-ext-2.discordapp.net...s-john-cena.mp4 The Shaker Heights Spike https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aPlfPbEh9w The Steiner Screwdriver https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mdk1EW-pPv0 Whatever this is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xIYVw3ZPJk And I'll throw this in for the sake of audience participation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxldOEOnzPA
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Jun 10, 2023 18:31
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Ibram Gaunt posted:Feeling bad that someone called you a dipshit doesn't mean you can claim you're being racially persecuted or being led into the ovens. What the gently caress. This is not a "both sides are right" situation man... No one is saying they can, and it isn't a both sides are right but more of a both sides are wrong situation where people should be toning it down so there can be actual discussion. I definitely see some of those posts and was thinking "Jfc guys c'mon." I think it just would've been more productive if you'd gone about it a little differently, like pointing out, "Hey some of these people in this thread are saying lovely things, can you tell them to dial it back?" Wouldn't that solve the problem without further fanning the flames? Especially when people earlier in the thread were suggesting bans and more for anyone who posts AI art outside of some specific AI thread.
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Jun 10, 2023 18:42
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I see the same crew of AI-worshipping idiots are loving up another thread. Cool work guys, keep it up (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 10, 2023 18:50
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Raenir Salazar posted:No one is saying they can, and it isn't a both sides are right but more of a both sides are wrong situation where people should be toning it down so there can be actual discussion. I definitely see some of those posts and was thinking "Jfc guys c'mon." You're really tone-policing the people saying that comparing liking a dumb toy to being a persecuted minority is bad. Good to know where your priorities are, hoss.
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Jun 10, 2023 18:50
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Nobody is being unfairly targeted, they're being targeted because they're on the side of worker exploitation and garbage content. This is not a "both sides have some good points" issue. If the decision is ultimately to retain an AI quarantine thread (albeit with a new OP etc.) then that's fine as long as there is punishment for breaching the quarantine so we don't have to see it in the rest of the forum.
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Jun 10, 2023 18:52
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Fajita Queen posted:Nobody is being unfairly targeted, they're being targeted because they're on the side of worker exploitation and garbage content. This is not a "both sides have some good points" issue. They have one of these threads in like half a dozen subforums already. They can post their garbage in GBS or in CC or in D&D or god knows where else already.
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Jun 10, 2023 18:54
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aw frig aw dang it posted:They have one of these threads in like half a dozen subforums already. They can post their garbage in GBS or in CC or in D&D or god knows where else already. That would be vastly preferable but having seen Leperflesh's posts in the AI thread and this one I'm not particularly optimistic.
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Jun 10, 2023 18:59
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Nuns with Guns posted:I am going to do the most dangerous move in wrestling on AI art. do the montreal screwjob
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Jun 10, 2023 19:01
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The only context I'd be posting about generators (other than times like this lol) is about using it for my own tabletop stuff so a thread about those uses belongs in TG not in, heaven forfend, D&D If someone wants to post about the ethics or treat the AI model like it's alive or whatever they should post that elsewhere imo. Tbh i enjoy the arguments with the antis but not everyone else does obviously and it's not really the forum for it
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Jun 10, 2023 19:04
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Xiahou Dun posted:You're really tone-policing the people saying that comparing liking a dumb toy to being a persecuted minority is bad. I'd say it's not tone policing because I'm disagreeing with the specific suggestions people are making pointing out why it is unhelpful and overreaching. Also I think my priorities have always been clear? Fajita Queen posted:Nobody is being unfairly targeted, they're being targeted because they're on the side of worker exploitation and garbage content. This is not a "both sides have some good points" issue. I'd say that demanding anyone who posts AI content is banned and be harassed is absolutely by definition unfairly targeting them; no one is actually on the side of worker exploitation or "garbage content", people clearly believe that the content is interesting and fulfilling to them, and no one advocating for AI to have a space in TG support artists losing their jobs. You're applying and extrapolating a larger societal issue down to an individual level which it isn't appropriate. I don't agree likewise that there should be punishment for breaching quarantine, I think there should be punishment for spamming, low effort or low content posts; and likewise punishment for people who are aggro towards those people; there's a reasonable middle ground. If people use AI in service of a larger more effortful post, like an AAR of a D&D session, and they happen to use AI artworks to enhance the events they're recounting; that's clearly effort and transformative in a way that should be tolerable. Perhaps as further compromise it can be expected they disclose they're using AI, but this isn't licence to harass them.
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Jun 10, 2023 19:28
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quarantine threads are the "reasonable middle ground." people do not care about AI ""content"", have serious issue with how the models are trained, and do not want it junking up their regular threads. they are allowing you a space where you can hoot and slap about this garbage to your hearts content and you can't even agree to that?
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Jun 10, 2023 19:35
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Nuns with Guns posted:I am going to do the most dangerous move in wrestling on AI art. Shove AI poo poo in a quarantine thread(whether it's art or not, it's always soulless dogshit with no merit or interesting facets), posting any AI-generated content outside of said thread is a dunking, arguing that it's cool and great that AI is literal art theft(i.e. profiting off someone else's work, not just sharing it with others) is a probing, ranting like a crypto dork about how AI is the future and anyone who doesn't appreciate is a luddite is a longer probing and also a public mocking. Make it clear that being pro-AI is being pro ruining artists' livelihoods and it isn't cool or accepted. Make it clear that if you post someone's work, you source it and credit them if at all possible.
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Jun 10, 2023 19:38
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PurpleXVI posted:Make it clear that being pro-AI is being pro ruining artists' livelihoods and it isn't cool or accepted. It is rather interesting how History repeats itself.
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Jun 10, 2023 19:50
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YES bread posted:quarantine threads are the "reasonable middle ground." people do not care about AI ""content"", have serious issue with how the models are trained, and do not want it junking up their regular threads. they are allowing you a space where you can hoot and slap about this garbage to your hearts content and you can't even agree to that? I mean this isn't true, clearly there's a problem where posting the content results in derails that the mod would like to avoid, but the solution isn't to clamp down harder on all such content, but to set better guidelines about what content is tolerable to post. People do seem to care quite a lot about it, that seems pretty much self-evidently the case, one way or another. Clearly the earlier containment thread didn't work to lower hostility to posters engaging with it, so the more hollistic policy is to more clamp down on people being dicks and people being low effort. PurpleXVI posted:Shove AI poo poo in a quarantine thread(whether it's art or not, it's always soulless dogshit with no merit or interesting facets), posting any AI-generated content outside of said thread is a dunking, arguing that it's cool and great that AI is literal art theft(i.e. profiting off someone else's work, not just sharing it with others) is a probing, ranting like a crypto dork about how AI is the future and anyone who doesn't appreciate is a luddite is a longer probing and also a public mocking. Make it clear that being pro-AI is being pro ruining artists' livelihoods and it isn't cool or accepted. Make it clear that if you post someone's work, you source it and credit them if at all possible. Like none of this is reasonable.
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Jun 10, 2023 19:51
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Ego Trip posted:The harms cannot be separated from the technology. The harm is the point. This is basically where I'm at, I lurk way more than I post but I truly don't give a gently caress if the people using the tools weren't going to commission an artist anyway. Quarantine it all to an ai thread and probe people for posting it elsewhere, or actually just ban it all together which would be the right move but getting there kind of feels like trying to get blood from a stone at this point.
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Jun 10, 2023 19:52
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Raenir Salazar posted:I mean this isn't true, clearly there's a problem where posting the content results in derails that the mod would like to avoid, but the solution isn't to clamp down harder on all such content, but to set better guidelines about what content is tolerable to post. People do seem to care quite a lot about it, that seems pretty much self-evidently the case, one way or another. Clearly the earlier containment thread didn't work to lower hostility to posters engaging with it, so the more hollistic policy is to more clamp down on people being dicks and people being low effort. Letting you post that horseshit anywhere is already a hell of a compromise. gently caress you and this If You Give a Mouse a Cookie bullshit. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 10, 2023 19:54
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nelson posted:It is rather interesting how The luddites were 100% right though and this isn't the own you think it is. They weren't against the auto looms, they wanted to use them to be more productive. What they were against was factory owners using them to replace people's jobs and that's exactly what happened.
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Jun 10, 2023 19:57
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Raenir Salazar posted:I mean this isn't true, clearly there's a problem where posting the content results in derails that the mod would like to avoid, but the solution isn't to clamp down harder on all such content, but to set better guidelines about what content is tolerable to post. People do seem to care quite a lot about it, that seems pretty much self-evidently the case, one way or another. Clearly the earlier containment thread didn't work to lower hostility to posters engaging with it, so the more hollistic policy is to more clamp down on people being dicks and people being low effort. again, there are multiple threads across the forums dedicated to AI poo poo. very simple to just post your garbage in there instead of anywhere else, if AI posters find even these simple guidelines too onerous then how on earth are they going to be able to only post "what content is tolerable" if we did waste a bunch of time writing up new guidelines for them? you seem to be making the argument that the poo poo should just be banned outright, which hell, I'm for it. imweasel09 posted:The luddites were 100% right though and this isn't the own you think it is. They weren't against the auto looms, they wanted to use them to be more productive. What they were against was factory owners using them to replace people's jobs and that's exactly what happened. but duuude what if chatgpt wrote, like, The Tempest??
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Jun 10, 2023 19:58
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YES bread posted:again, there are multiple threads across the forums dedicated to AI poo poo. very simple to just post your garbage in there instead of anywhere else, if AI posters find even these simple guidelines too onerous then how on earth are they going to be able to only post "what content is tolerable" if we did waste a bunch of time writing up new guidelines for them? ? There are guidelines? Where?
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Jun 10, 2023 20:01
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Xiahou Dun posted:Letting you post that horseshit anywhere is already a hell of a compromise. There's disagreement over the nature of the proposed compromise and people are allowed to disagree and voice their concerns I feel is valid. YES bread posted:again, there are multiple threads across the forums dedicated to AI poo poo. very simple to just post your garbage in there instead of anywhere else, if AI posters find even these simple guidelines too onerous then how on earth are they going to be able to only post "what content is tolerable" if we did waste a bunch of time writing up new guidelines for them? you seem to be making the argument that the poo poo should just be banned outright, which hell, I'm for it. I'm not sure what you're responding to, but clearly people who feel a part of the TG community would like to post their specific TG related content in the TG sub and that sounds pretty reasonable why "Why don't you post this elsewhere?" isn't wholly a reasonable suggestion. And as I said clearly there's disagreement that these guidelines are "simple" or fair or what have you and where and when else to litigate it and post their concerns than now? The mods in the end will decide and this is the best time to make their case. And I'm obviously not making the case that it should be banned outright, the opposite in fact.
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Jun 10, 2023 20:05
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There are a great many subjects that have dedicated threads in places on the forum and are also perfectly fine to post about elsewhere on the forum when it is relevant to the conversation. This is frankly the default status of "anything popular enough to get a dedicated thread."
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Jun 10, 2023 20:07
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How would you even enforce a TradGames ban on AI content, when that content is increasingly difficult to distinguish from the output of purely human endeavor? A week or so ago I needed pictures of a wrecked starship with a specific kind of vibe and proportions. After several hours of searching I ended up on an ArtStation account that had something approximately right, in one of those formats you see on that site where someone will post a bunch of different versions of the same image at various stages of completion, or zoomed in on certain parts of a high-resolution image, etc. I decided to check out their twitter just in case there was more from this person I could use, and lo and behold, they're talking about their AI work, which this piece apparently is part of. I didn't end up using it because I found a better alternative, but if I hadn't read that random twitter post, I wouldn't have known it was AI generated (and presumably human-tweaked). If I had posted that image here, and someone later discovered it was AI generated, am I now in violation of the forum rules? If I find a bunch of cool images in an Imgur gallery that I can't trace back to an original source, am I forbidden from posting them because they might be AI-generated, even though TinEye / Google Image Search routinely struggle to find the original source of images that existed well before AI was a thing? What happens in a couple of years from now, when it's a pretty safe bet that the output of these programs is basically indistinguishable from human-made art, and it's been normalized enough that people aren't bothering to call out their use of it specifically as a novelty? Does photoshop's increasingly capable content-aware fill violate the terms of "no AI-generated material" ? This is just the tip of the iceberg with these questions. I don't see any way that a blanket ban on AI-generated content is feasible for the mods today, let alone in the very near future.
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Jun 10, 2023 20:13
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Raenir Salazar posted:I'm not sure what you're responding to, but clearly people who feel a part of the TG community would like to post their specific TG related content in the TG sub and that sounds pretty reasonable good news, there is an AI thread for you to do that in. just keep it in there and take your lumps if you breech, very simple. use of AI generation to displace human creativity should not be normalized on the forums.
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Jun 10, 2023 20:16
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Hence why my suggestion is a more holistic approach where we rely on the good faith honour system of the posters to always put in effort even outside of the AI thread whose purpose is meant to be for more insider trading of hints and tricks and the tools of the trade and for slightly looser approach to what can be posted but outside of it it doesn't really make any sense to try to enforce a total ban; it just seems like its overwhelmingly more likely to be better long term to expect, "Hey if you use AI, try to be open about it, no one will bite, and make sure you're putting in your damnedest to make sure the post and content is interesting."YES bread posted:good news, there is an AI thread for you to do that in. just keep it in there and take your lumps if you breech, very simple. use of AI generation to displace human creativity should not be normalized on the forums. Good thing no one is arguing that displacing human creativity be normalized?
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Jun 10, 2023 20:18
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The basic problem I see with the "no talking about AI art outside of the AI art thread" thing is that at some point there will be tradgames books getting released with generated art which is neither inherently stealing (e.g. Adobe Firefly) nor even hypothetically displacing the paid work of actual artists (e.g. DM's Guild and Pathfinder Infinite no-name releases that would never have non-stock art in the first place), and at that point it's just "no talking about things that exist in capitalism because capitalism is unethical".
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Jun 10, 2023 20:20
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Kestral posted:How would you even enforce a TradGames ban on AI content, when that content is increasingly difficult to distinguish from the output of purely human endeavor? "BUT WHAT ABOUT THE FUTURE!!!!" is a frail argument when it's based on things like: "people will stop making fun of AI dorks for being dorks and weenies" when there's no sign of this. It will never be normalized, and even if it's normalized in wider society, I don't want it to be here. and "AI will stop creating weird hosed up melanges and be JUST LIKE REAL ART!!!!" when there's no sign of this either. But the pro-AI argumenters are absolutely changing my mind in favour of just any kind of AI content being probatable, because anyone who wants to post it also seems to want to be insufferable.
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Jun 10, 2023 20:20
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Raenir Salazar posted:I think a lot of people disagree A lot of people are wrong, then. The explicit purpose of this technology is to replace human labor with extruded product as a cost saving measure. That is why these companies are spending money developing it. The harm is the point.
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Jun 10, 2023 20:25
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Roadie posted:The basic problem I see with the "no talking about AI art outside of the AI art thread" thing is that at some point there will be tradgames books getting released with generated art which is neither inherently stealing (e.g. Adobe Firefly) nor even hypothetically displacing the paid work of actual artists (e.g. DM's Guild and Pathfinder Infinite no-name releases that would never have non-stock art in the first place), and at that point it's just "no talking about things that exist in capitalism because capitalism is unethical". That's the other thing too because people are going to have Opinions(tm) one way or another so we haven't actually stopped derails. PurpleXVI posted:"BUT WHAT ABOUT THE FUTURE!!!!" is a frail argument when it's based on things like: I've absolutely seen AI Art that looks indistinguishable from human drawn art; or requires such close scrutiny as to be basically indistinguishable by a lay person; which is most people. Especially art that's part of a hybrid process of both hand drawn and AI generated steps that get merged together, for example AI artworks which result in being "fixed" by a human artist, as just an example there's dozens of combinations in ways human artists get involved in the AI process to make results even more hard to tell apart. Which by the stated positions I've seen earlier in the thread would also be unacceptable and thus more so untenable as a policy in practice. Ego Trip posted:A lot of people are wrong, then. Again you need to divorce the opinions of jaggoffs on twitter, but this is getting back into arguing the ethics of the technology which as I understand it we're still not supposed to be doing? Can a mod clarify if that's the position? In any case this is a disputed point and better discussed in the D&D AI thread, so I'll hold off on my opinion on why I'd disagree with this argument and its framing; but suffice it to say that I do. Raenir Salazar fucked around with this message at 20:28 on Jun 10, 2023 |
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Jun 10, 2023 20:25
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PurpleXVI posted:"people will stop making fun of AI dorks for being dorks and weenies" when there's no sign of this. It will never be normalized, and even if it's normalized in wider society, I don't want it to be here.
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Jun 10, 2023 20:26
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Roadie posted:The basic problem I see with the "no talking about AI art outside of the AI art thread" thing is that at some point there will be tradgames books getting released with generated art which is neither inherently stealing (e.g. Adobe Firefly) nor even hypothetically displacing the paid work of actual artists (e.g. DM's Guild and Pathfinder Infinite no-name releases that would never have non-stock art in the first place), and at that point it's just "no talking about things that exist in capitalism because capitalism is unethical".
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Jun 10, 2023 20:35
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Roadie posted:The basic problem I see with the "no talking about AI art outside of the AI art thread" thing is that at some point there will be tradgames books getting released with generated art which is neither inherently stealing (e.g. Adobe Firefly) nor even hypothetically displacing the paid work of actual artists (e.g. DM's Guild and Pathfinder Infinite no-name releases that would never have non-stock art in the first place), and at that point it's just "no talking about things that exist in capitalism because capitalism is unethical". Already happening. Cities Without Number is filled with ai junk despite that creator making a shitload and more than enough to pay an artist.
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Jun 10, 2023 20:38
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Roadie posted:Did you miss that fake generated photos are already being used for mass-market campaign ads? "It will never be normalized" went out the window last week. I'm not sure how Desantis using lovely AI-generated pictures is in any way "normalizing" it when Desantis is absolutely a mutant fuckup loser and also a dork and a weenie. Bottom Liner posted:Already happening. Cities Without Number is filled with ai junk despite that creator making a shitload and more than enough to pay an artist. Well, then the creator is a shithead and it should be called out.
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Jun 10, 2023 20:38
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These arguments that "look see <big celebrity/politican> is shilling it!" as proof literally are saying the same stupid poo poo cryptobros did about NFTs lol. Delusional thinking.
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Jun 10, 2023 20:40
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I heard on the street that cryptobros breath air
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Jun 10, 2023 20:43
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