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Just going to get ahead of the discussion and say for all those wondering; nation-wide protests that cross the lines of what is normally considered safe protest is probably the only way to get the gun crisis fixed. And seeing as gun violence is now the leading cause of death among children in the US, and many of the same people preventing that from being fixed already tried to violently overthrow US democracy, if this doesn't justify revolutionary action then nothing else really does.
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Mar 27, 2023 19:58
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Orthanc6 posted:Just going to get ahead of the discussion and say for all those wondering; nation-wide protests that cross the lines of what is normally considered safe protest is probably the only way to get the gun crisis fixed. And seeing as gun violence is now the leading cause of death among children in the US, and many of the same people preventing that from being fixed already tried to violently overthrow US democracy, if this doesn't justify revolutionary action then nothing else really does. You want to have an armed revolution to get rid of guns? VVV And yet it's the only interpretation that makes sense, unless you think that fascists are going to give up their guns because New York City is getting trashed. CuddleCryptid fucked around with this message at 20:21 on Mar 27, 2023 |
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Mar 27, 2023 20:07
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CuddleCryptid posted:You want to have an armed revolution to get rid of guns? I think that's leaping to the most extreme possible interpretation of what they said. I agree with them to be honest. It sure appears as if the gun violence crisis--really, multiple different kinds of crises that all go back to guns--is not going to be resolved through normal political means. There will need to be, at least, sustained nationwide demonstrations on par with what we're seeing in France and Israel right now in order to even begin to move the needle.
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Mar 27, 2023 20:10
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Judgy Fucker posted:I think that's leaping to the most extreme possible interpretation of what they said. Looks like it's time, once again, to point to the example of Australia. This time with assistance from John Oliver! I have even queued up the link for the inevitable "America is different" argument: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0FLsIzNxkI&t=839s
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Mar 27, 2023 20:20
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Kalit posted:Looks like it's time, once again, to point to the example of Australia. This time with assistance from John Oliver! I have even queued up the link for the inevitable "America is different" argument: Respectfully, that is not at all convincing. It does not address the myriad systemic issues--both cultural and political--that make America a vastly different situation than Australia. As a specific example, the speed with which they passed their gun control legislation. Of course it only took a few months, Australia has a parliamentary system where a government can do poo poo like that. They don't have to worry about divided government or a filibuster (at the very least) when legislating. Judgy Fucker fucked around with this message at 20:27 on Mar 27, 2023 |
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Mar 27, 2023 20:24
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Infrastructure week continues mercilessly https://twitter.com/rawsalerts/status/1640423514887864323?t=SLrHn9dgH64cZtQ6d4Wvzw&s=19 Just reported on this part hour, anyone around kelso, Cali should probably get the gently caress away from rail lines right now
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Mar 27, 2023 20:30
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How the hell does that happen
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Mar 27, 2023 20:34
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If a train has gotta derail that looks like a fantastic place for it to happen. (Kelso is a ghost town/abandoned depot, not an actual place people live.) But yeah. Apparently you can forget to put a train in park?
Mellow Seas fucked around with this message at 20:40 on Mar 27, 2023 |
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Mar 27, 2023 20:36
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A big flaming stink posted:Infrastructure week continues mercilessly Jesus, was just about to post this, since there were two other derailments today. one in some Chicago suburbs and another in North Dakota. The Chicago one was just carrying wheat, but the SD one spilled hazardous chemicals. https://www.foxbusiness.com/economy/canadian-pacific-train-derails-near-chicago https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/3920140-train-derails-spilling-hazardous-materials-in-north-dakota/
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Mar 27, 2023 20:36
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Just to rehash from previous discussions, 3 derailments is an average day. There are about 1000 per year.
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Mar 27, 2023 20:38
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Mellow Seas posted:Just to rehash from previous discussions, 3 derailments is an average day. There are about 1000 per year. As I'm pretty sure has been pointed out before when this topic came up, The trend of the increasing number of rail cars in a train means that derailments are becoming more dangerous compared to years previous
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Mar 27, 2023 20:40
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Judgy Fucker posted:Respectfully, that is not at all convincing. It does not address the myriad systemic issues--both cultural and political--that make America a vastly different situation than Australia.  Thanks for proving my point so quicklyJudgy Fucker posted:As a specific example, the speed with which they passed their gun control legislation. Of course it only took a few months, Australia has a parliamentary system where a government can do poo poo like that. They don't have to worry about divided government or a filibuster (at the very least) when legislating.
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Mar 27, 2023 20:42
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Kalit posted:
I think the point is American exceptionalism.
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Mar 27, 2023 20:43
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Kalit posted:....how does this prevent us from passing gun control related laws? And do you think that a parliamentary system makes it impossible to have a divided government? Technically, yes. A parliamentary system has the executive and legislative branch within a single elected body, so it is literally impossible to have a divided government where the executive and legislative branches are controlled by different people.
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Mar 27, 2023 20:47
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Technically, yes. A parliamentary system has the executive and legislative branch within a single elected body, so it is literally impossible to have a divided government where the executive and legislative branches are controlled by different people. Thanks for the explanation, maybe I had a different idea of the term divided government. I was thinking of a divided government within the same branch, i.e. Australia's Senate and House of Representatives. This is how it was always referred to as within my state of MN, so I assumed this was the correct usage of the term. Kalit fucked around with this message at 21:03 on Mar 27, 2023 |
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Mar 27, 2023 20:54
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With all due respect, I don't think government structure is the problem, I think it's that the people who make up the government in each case are in one case, sane, and in the other case: complete loving lunatics. "High-power rifles are bad for civilians to own without significant or complete restriction" is not really much of a debate in most of the world. Even in Canada, where the gun control debate is quite active, the discussion usually comes down to: "should these guns be moderately restricted (as all guns), heavily restricted (as handguns and AR-15s were until recently) or prohibited?" I think that's a reasonable conversation to have, and reasonable people can disagree on what the correct regulations would be. But I think having everything more or less wide-open is clearly very loving stupid, bordering on insanity, and most everyone agrees.
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Mar 27, 2023 21:06
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Update: crashed https://twitter.com/SBCOUNTYFIRE/status/1640442287716171776?t=PaflAQo60ghfiBu-Ze-QDw&s=19
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Mar 27, 2023 21:11
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cr0y posted:Update: crashed A load of iron ore, 26 thousand tons more?
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Mar 27, 2023 21:13
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Hey, I'm gonna be driving through Kelso on Wednesday. Gonna grab me some iron ore.
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Mar 27, 2023 21:28
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mutata posted:Hey, I'm gonna be driving through Kelso on Wednesday. Gonna grab me some iron ore. America is becoming a survival crafting game before our very eyes.
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Mar 27, 2023 21:43
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MixMasterMalaria posted:America is becoming a survival crafting game before our very eyes. Cant craft launch fuel without metal plating!
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Mar 27, 2023 21:46
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Kalit posted:
How did I do that, exactly? It's not a logical fallacy to say that the U.S. is different from Australia both socially and politically. Why is it logical to assume that something that worked in Australia will definitely work in the U.S.? Kalit posted:....how does this prevent us from passing gun control related laws? And do you think that a parliamentary system makes it impossible to have a divided government? Oh, you don't know what you're talking about. Okay, then.
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Mar 27, 2023 21:54
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Byzantine posted:A load of iron ore, 26 thousand tons more? ...than the runway train had weighed empty.
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Mar 27, 2023 21:54
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Youth Decay posted:Nashville shooter was a 28yo woman. I believe this is the first school shooting committed by a woman since the Cleveland Elementary School shooting in 1979. More 👏 female 👏 school 👏 shooters👏 Wait, no, the opposite
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Mar 27, 2023 22:00
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Nissin Cup Nudist posted:More 👏 female 👏 school 👏 shooters👏 Hashtag #feminism
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Mar 27, 2023 22:05
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PT6A posted:With all due respect, I don't think government structure is the problem, I think it's that the people who make up the government in each case are in one case, sane, and in the other case: complete loving lunatics. I would argue that how the government is structured affects who is in the government.
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Mar 27, 2023 22:11
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Judgy Fucker posted:How did I do that, exactly? It's not a logical fallacy to say that the U.S. is different from Australia both socially and politically. Why is it logical to assume that something that worked in Australia will definitely work in the U.S.? You never answered the question and are ignoring the fact that the Australian government can have split control of the legislative branch, like they currently do. Let me rephrase my question. Since we've seen the US government pass meaningful gun control legislation in the recent past (Federal Assault Weapons Ban), why do you think that our government structure is what holds us back from passing gun control laws similar to Australia? Or, to the larger point that started this Kalit fucked around with this message at 22:57 on Mar 27, 2023 |
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Mar 27, 2023 22:15
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Judgy Fucker posted:I would argue that how the government is structured affects who is in the government. You can't get lunatics in a democratic government of any construction unless you have a significant number of people who are ready and willing to vote for lunatics. Yes there's gerrymandering and voter suppression, but there's also a lot of voters who are just batshit insane, and those factors are the two halves of the puzzle.
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Mar 27, 2023 22:20
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cr0y posted:Update: crashed
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Mar 27, 2023 22:21
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Kalit posted:You never answered the question and are ignoring the fact that the Australian government can have split control of the legislative branch, like they currently do. Let me rephrase my question. Why is this a derail? We're discussing a US-centered current event  The structure of our government prevents us from passing meaningful gun control legislation because it is purposefully undemocratic. It is willfully structured so that minority rule prevails. There are enough powerful, minority interests who do not want any kind of gun control legislation to pass, ever. What happened to that assault weapons ban, by the way? If you want to know how or why I've come to my position, here's a question for you: if it's so easy Australia did it, why is meaningful gun control legislation not being passed in the U.S. right now? or even since the ban was repealed? And besides, you're arguing the affirmative here. You prove your case on how it'd be so simple to do, and please be a bit more thorough in your explanation than posting a four-minute infotainment clip. PT6A posted:You can't get lunatics in a democratic government of any construction unless you have a significant number of people who are ready and willing to vote for lunatics. Yes there's gerrymandering and voter suppression, but there's also a lot of voters who are just batshit insane, and those factors are the two halves of the puzzle. I don't disagree, but I posit that our dumbfuck electoral and political systems creates the socioeconomic conditions to create the kind of batshit lunatics we're mutually discussing. I'd also say handwaving away gerrymandering and voter suppression is being too dismissive of their effects.
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Mar 27, 2023 22:22
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I think we should have more gun laws in the USA.
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Mar 27, 2023 22:23
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cr0y posted:Update: crashed We never should have cut back funding to the Blast Corps
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Mar 27, 2023 22:25
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Judgy Fucker posted:I'd also say handwaving away gerrymandering and voter suppression is being too dismissive of their effects. I'm not handwaving them away, I'm saying in a sane country even die-hard conservative partisans would say "you know, these constant shootings are getting to be a bit much, loving do something about them" and then it wouldn't matter how you suppressed the vote or gerrymandered them because no one would vote for rabid 2nd amendment loons. There would still be a lot of other policy issues, the system would still favour capital and racism and all that horrible poo poo, it would not fix every problem, but you need a certain amount of absolute nuts to sustain the current policy positions on gun control, because they are utterly insane.
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Mar 27, 2023 22:35
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mutata posted:Hey, I'm gonna be driving through Kelso on Wednesday. Gonna grab me some iron ore. oren't you glad you were already passing through
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Mar 27, 2023 22:45
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PT6A posted:I'm not handwaving them away, I'm saying in a sane country even die-hard conservative partisans would say "you know, these constant shootings are getting to be a bit much, loving do something about them" and then it wouldn't matter how you suppressed the vote or gerrymandered them because no one would vote for rabid 2nd amendment loons. Gerrymandering and under-representation (you'd have to quadruple the size of congress to get a population to representative ratio close to Australia) is doing a drat lot of work that you're consciously saying doesn't matter just because you know that assholes exist.
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Mar 27, 2023 22:45
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Judgy Fucker posted:Why is this a derail? We're discussing a US-centered current event Good point about this not being a derail, whoops. Our structure of government is not a true democracy, absolutely. But, as history as shown, we can still pass gun control laws. I never said it's simple/easy/etc. But you were making the argument that it's impossible because of it. To correct your statement, I wouldn't say Australia easily did it. IIRC, they passed it by one vote by a conservative who threw away his political career for it. A more accurate stating would probably be they had the correct politicians in office at the correct time. Another correction is the Federal Assault Weapons Ban wasn't repealed, it was expired and wasn't renewed. Which ends in the same result of the ban, but I think its important to show that it wasn't because of an extremely strong rebuke of that law. For your question about the USA, gun control legislation isn't being passed for a myriad of reasons. Off the top of my head, the leading causes is probably something along the lines of:
To your point about government structure in general, I could maybe throw the makeup of the senate in that list too. However, I think that's secondary to those other 3 points. If those other 3 points shift among the general populace, I imagine a lot more centrist (D & R) politicians would happily vote for gun control laws. Once again, I never said it was simple, but I think it absolutely is possible to pass major changes through our federal government. And I know this is true because we've seen it in the recent past. Kalit fucked around with this message at 23:21 on Mar 27, 2023 |
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Mar 27, 2023 23:18
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https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/live-blog/nashville-school-shooting-covenant-live-updates-rcna76861quote:The suspect in Monday's deadly school shooting was a former student who had maps of The Covenant School, Nashville Police Chief John Drake said.
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Mar 27, 2023 23:26
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marshmonkey posted:https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/live-blog/nashville-school-shooting-covenant-live-updates-rcna76861 cool this will surely have a wonderful effect on the discourse around upcoming legislation aimed at trans people
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Mar 27, 2023 23:29
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I'm really afraid for the anti-Trans backlash that will come from this
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Mar 27, 2023 23:29
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PT6A posted:With all due respect, I don't think government structure is the problem, I think it's that the people who make up the government in each case are in one case, sane, and in the other case: complete loving lunatics. the australian liberal party is not famed for its sanity
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Mar 27, 2023 23:31
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