(Thread IKs:
fatherboxx)
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Qtotonibudinibudet posted:really though, of all places, Tajikistan? Military production was moved there and other Central Asian republics, so people also were needed to work at the factories. Makes me wonder if something like that could be done now. With all the talk about ramping up shell production, why not employ tens of thousands of Ukrainians in Poland, for example? Based on how Russia managed to increase its shell production, at least some initial steps can be done by people with close to no training and almost no specialised machine tools.
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Apr 26, 2024 20:29
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Nervous posted:Have they started slaving small auto-cannons to firing computers and letting them go nuts yet to try and deal with the drones on either side? I have been thinking the same thing. I saw that robot dog with the flamethrower on its back the other day and thought about putting a small gun of some sort with a targeting computer on the back of one of those robot dogs and you could have several following around your infantry squad. It wouldn't have much range but I feel like you could design one that would be better than nothing. You'd want to make the gun/computer modular so you could plop it on whatever you wanted like tanks, apcs, your command HQ. Kind of a last line of defense against the small commercial drones coming to drop a grenade on your head.
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Apr 26, 2024 20:29
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Paladinus posted:Military production was moved there and other Central Asian republics, so people also were needed to work at the factories. How do you suggest this should be done? Some kind of indentured servitude? I'm fairly sure the number of Ukrainians with the interest or ability (or even education, for the more specialised jobs), isn't enough to employ "tens of thousands". And that's beside the point, unemployment across Europe is high enough getting factory workers is a problem no-one ever thought about, because it doesn't exist
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Apr 26, 2024 20:31
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Libluini posted:How do you suggest this should be done? Some kind of indentured servitude? I'm fairly sure the number of Ukrainians with the interest or ability (or even education, for the more specialised jobs), isn't enough to employ "tens of thousands". And that's beside the point, unemployment across Europe is high enough getting factory workers is a problem no-one ever thought about, because it doesn't exist Why not do it in the same principle as conscription as military service is done? People can be conscripted and trained into various jobs and then be shunted off to the reserves if the need to use them arises to use mothballed infrastucture so just extend that backwards from firing an artillery shell or driving a tank to producing those. Makes it more palatable to conscript women as well in safer positions.
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Apr 26, 2024 20:44
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Libluini posted:How do you suggest this should be done? Some kind of indentured servitude? I'm fairly sure the number of Ukrainians with the interest or ability (or even education, for the more specialised jobs), isn't enough to employ "tens of thousands". And that's beside the point, unemployment across Europe is high enough getting factory workers is a problem no-one ever thought about, because it doesn't exist Who said they would be employed against their will, lol? A lot of Ukrainians abroad right now have to work low-paid entry jobs, and a factory job could be a good alternative, especially considering the incentive of helping your country without risking your life. It's also my understanding that just like low-paid entry jobs, factory work is not necessarily something that attracts a lot of locals. In Russia, it was precisely the deficit of workers that held back military production at the start of the full-scale invasion. When more people were left without work due to sanctions and counter-sanctions, for a lot of them the only option was a shell factory (with the added benefit that you won't get conscripted). If in EU the problem is not with the number of factory workers, what is the problem?
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Apr 26, 2024 21:02
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Libluini posted:And that's beside the point, unemployment across Europe is high enough getting factory workers is a problem no-one ever thought about, because it doesn't exist This isn't exactly true, there's plenty of difficulties in recruiting workers despite there being unemployment. Often there's high unemployment in one location and high employment in another, but there's too much distance to conveniently shuttle between the two places and people are also shy of moving away for various reasons, such as spouse already has a job or not wanting to lose all of the existing social networks, or they simply like living where they are. Immigrants are one solution to this, e.g. people who have arrived as asylum seekers don't have so many difficulties in moving to some location shunned by natives because it's all the same for them and they'd just want to get some work. I'm not sure if the idea of investing in Eastern Poland only to occupy it with Ukrainians is a story that you will want to tell your child, though. Another point is that while normally basic factory workers are trained at spot, you also need some recruits to fill certain physical attributes and some positions require at least some proficiency. You can't tell someone with a bad back to lift 155mm cartridges by hand. And then there's some people that you just don't want working anywhere near you and maybe full employment is not a desirable thing because then you must scrape the bottom of the barrel.
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Apr 26, 2024 21:17
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i was VERY loving confused as to what thread i was in for a second
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Apr 26, 2024 21:24
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It's time we discuss the PPE in Ukraine and whether the shoes stay on when you get hit by a drone
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Apr 26, 2024 21:28
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Nenonen posted:It's time we discuss the PPE in Ukraine and whether the shoes stay on when you get hit by a drone what if the shoes stay on but the feet don’t?
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Apr 26, 2024 22:07
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Keisari posted:Lmao. Have fun living a life of exile and being shamed and shunned by everyone you know if your country ever gets attacked. And if everyone in your country shares your view, it will lose. I wonder if this is an expectation you put on yourself and think others put on you, while others, your family members, friends, etc would in reality be less harsh upon you? There's obviously various ways to refuse to fight, some more detestable like a rich person just moving away, and some more acceptable or understandable, like being in terror because you think you couldn't handle the stress of battle, but in general would you be as harsh to your family members or friends who deserted? Like I feel that people put more expectations on themselves than are actually expected of them. I also believe that someone who is not willing to do a thing has no right to shame someone else who is not willing to do that thing either and I think most people instinctively know that, in reference to "most other women would shame me" and that most of them would in fact not shame you.
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Apr 26, 2024 22:22
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Natty Ninefingers posted:what if the shoes stay on but the feet don’t? As the old joke goes: "I can't feel my legs!"... "That's because your arms have been blown off". 
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Apr 26, 2024 22:29
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Finland has a strong conscription culture, which I assume Sweden? does not. Everyone at Esson baari would give Keisari a hard time if he did not do his perceived duty.
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Apr 26, 2024 22:29
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Grimnarsson posted:I wonder if this is an expectation you put on yourself and think others put on you, while others, your family members, friends, etc would in reality be less harsh upon you? There's obviously various ways to refuse to fight, some more detestable like a rich person just moving away, and some more acceptable or understandable, like being in terror because you think you couldn't handle the stress of battle, but in general would you be as harsh to your family members or friends who deserted? Like I feel that people put more expectations on themselves than are actually expected of them. I also believe that someone who is not willing to do a thing has no right to shame someone else who is not willing to do that thing either and I think most people instinctively know that, in reference to "most other women would shame me" and that most of them would in fact not shame you. Yeah, that reasoning really doesn't work in Finland: https://yle.fi/a/74-20006876 Fleeing the general mobilization, especially for men trained and health-wise capable to serve, would make one a pariah for the rest of the country for the rest of their lives. More than four out of five say that they would be willing to serve if needed to defend the country against Russian invasion. Only 8 percent said "No" in a survey conducted in 2022, and this was done year before we joined NATO, knowing well that we would not win a long-term conflict similar to what happens in Ukraine right now.
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Apr 26, 2024 22:32
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Ynglaur posted:The M1A1 doesn't have lot of extra electrical power to spare (unless they upgraded them somehow?), so I could envision a situation in which the M1A1s can't power such EW systems. In the true spirit of Cold War engineering, I have the perfect solution: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_modular_reactor Ladies and gentlemen, the nuclear tank 
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Apr 26, 2024 22:39
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Rappaport posted:Finland has a strong conscription culture, which I assume Sweden? does not. Everyone at Esson baari would give Keisari a hard time if he did not do his perceived duty. Yeah it's always interesting talking about this stuff with people from countries with a strong conscription culture. I remember a South Korean buddy of mine in university telling us that in business, the three things people ask you when getting to know someone in a business setting is 1. Your name, 2. Who is your family, and 3. Where did you serve during your mandatory service, which could break the ice pretty well if you both served in the same branch or similar roles. But if you didn't have an answer to the last one, even if the role was just pushing papers in a back room, at least according to him you've basically already committed career suicide and everyone will just look down on you. He never wanted to do it and permanently immigrated here to Canada anyway but it seemed to be at least one factor of why he never wanted to go back and try and establish himself in Korea.
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Apr 26, 2024 22:45
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Mr Luxury Yacht posted:Yeah it's always interesting talking about this stuff with people from countries with a strong conscription culture. One size need not fit all. Nobody gives a poo poo in Turkey despite the strong conscription culture.
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Apr 26, 2024 22:54
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Rappaport posted:Finland has a strong conscription culture, which I assume Sweden? does not. Everyone at Esson baari would give Keisari a hard time if he did not do his perceived duty. I'm aware of Finnish conscription culture and Esson baari being a Finnish conscript myself. But I'm not so sure that people would be as harsh to eachother, disowning friends and family, never talking to them again if they didn't want to participate in compulsary armed service (like would you do that to your friends and family?) but I would also give credit to Finland never giving up conscription so we are all accustomed to it so at the very basic what else is any of us going to other than follow the orders that we've always known might come some day. For Ukraine it's massively more complicated because they abolished conscription and are now trying to re-implement it and have been doing so in a hap-hazard manner.
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Apr 26, 2024 23:15
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How do people in Finland view the ones who do civil service instead?
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Apr 26, 2024 23:18
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Grimnarsson posted:I'm aware of Finnish conscription culture and Esson baari being a Finnish conscript myself. But I'm not so sure that people would be as harsh to eachother, disowning friends and family, never talking to them again if they didn't want to participate in compulsary armed service (like would you do that to your friends and family?) but I would also give credit to Finland never giving up conscription so we are all accustomed to it so at the very basic what else is any of us going to other than follow the orders that we've always known might come some day. For Ukraine it's massively more complicated because they abolished conscription and are now trying to re-implement it and have been doing so in a hap-hazard manner. I'm a bad example since my dad served in the UN peace corps, you are welcome to your opinion of them but it goes back to Kekkonen saying if we have to participate in the UN, we must accept their rules. Of course the reason for our armed forces in Finland is our big boogie-man, and you might disagree with the reasoning there, but *points at thread in general* mawarannahr posted:How do people in Finland view the ones who do civil service instead? It used to be a bit of a joke, but it's better now. I think.
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Apr 26, 2024 23:22
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Libluini posted:How do you suggest this should be done? Some kind of indentured servitude? I'm fairly sure the number of Ukrainians with the interest or ability (or even education, for the more specialised jobs), isn't enough to employ "tens of thousands". And that's beside the point, unemployment across Europe is high enough getting factory workers is a problem no-one ever thought about, because it doesn't exist euro area / EU unemployment is literally the lowest in its recorded history as a unified economic area right now: https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/EUU/european-union/unemployment-rate https://tradingeconomics.com/euro-area/unemployment-rate
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Apr 26, 2024 23:51
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Rappaport posted:I'm a bad example since my dad served in the UN peace corps, you are welcome to your opinion of them but it goes back to Kekkonen saying if we have to participate in the UN, we must accept their rules. Of course the reason for our armed forces in Finland is our big boogie-man, and you might disagree with the reasoning there, but *points at thread in general* I appreciate that I'm welcome to my opinion and I'll say I hold the movie "Pekka ja Pätkä Suezilla" close to my heart.
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Apr 27, 2024 00:19
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Grimnarsson posted:I appreciate that I'm welcome to my opinion and I'll say I hold the movie "Pekka ja Pätkä Suezilla" close to my heart. That's not the one with the black face, is it? My Pekka and Pätkä lore is lacking
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Apr 27, 2024 00:31
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Rappaport posted:That's not the one with the black face, is it? My Pekka and Pätkä lore is lacking It probably is unless they did multiple movies set near Africa. Though I could definitely see them get into hijinks in Finland that require them to use an exotic disguise? The lore is vast and incomprehensible, and really not worth looking into aside from digging into vague childhood memories.
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Apr 27, 2024 00:45
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Agreed, and we're well off topic from the war.
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Apr 27, 2024 01:08
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Dandywalken posted:50-57mm fused airburst is the future Actually, 35mm seems to be The Way. The US has 120mm MPAT now, which has a variable fuse that let's it be HEAT, HE, or airburst. I'm sure it's wonderful, but I wonder if development time is why I never had HE. There's also a beehive round which is basically a 120mm shotgun shell.
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Apr 27, 2024 02:07
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Ynglaur posted:Actually, 35mm seems to be The Way. It doesn't have HE because the programs that lead to its production never finished their research before they were cancelled by congress: See Ares xm274 & MRAAS; AKA, that 75mm machine gun Eugene Stoner (Yes, that Stoner) and the programmable telescoping cased ammo eventually made for it, over the span of 4 separate attempts by the US Army to build a light tank around the weapon platform. E: So you can blame congress we don't have the anti-everything gun because they hate light tank.
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Apr 27, 2024 02:51
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A good summary thread on the challenges facing Ukraine. The inability to put men in uniform in sufficient numbers as well as the 6 month long ammunition crisis has put important strongholds at risk like Chasiv Yar while others have already fallen. While slow, Russian progress has been steady following Andiivka's fall and the front has yet to stabilize. Ukraine may be looking at significant territorial losses during the summer campaign. https://x.com/RALee85/status/1783972910333407356
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Apr 27, 2024 03:04
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Back Hack posted:It doesn't have HE because the programs that lead to its production never finished their research before they were cancelled by congress: See Ares xm274 & MRAAS; AKA, that 75mm machine gun Eugene Stoner (Yes, that Stoner) and the programmable telescoping cased ammo eventually made for it, over the span of 4 separate attempts by the US Army to build a light tank around the weapon platform. Thanks! I assumed it was something like that.
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Apr 27, 2024 03:35
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Grimnarsson posted:Why not do it in the same principle as conscription as military service is done? People can be conscripted and trained into various jobs and then be shunted off to the reserves if the need to use them arises to use mothballed infrastucture so just extend that backwards from firing an artillery shell or driving a tank to producing those. Makes it more palatable to conscript women as well in safer positions. I was responding to this post: Paladinus posted:Military production was moved there and other Central Asian republics, so people also were needed to work at the factories. Which was talking about Ukrainian refugees in Poland to staff those factories. You know, there's a word for what it's called when a nation "conscripts" foreign nationals to work in a factory. Slavery. Not that the idea of conscripting Ukrainians to work in Ukrainian factories is any better. Those civilians are often already working jobs, so the only Ukrainians you could "conscript" are already in the working pool in the right age and either unemployed or willing to work another job, if the money is right. Forcing them to work is complete idiocy. Hell, women are already recruited into traditional male jobs in Ukraine, no-one needed to "conscript" them. Grimnarsson, did you just miss the post I was answering to? You can't possibly be serious with your slavery defense here. Paladinus posted:Who said they would be employed against their will, lol? Look at Grimnarsson up there, for example.  pmchem posted:euro area / EU unemployment is literally the lowest in its recorded history as a unified economic area right now: This graph starts counting numbers in 1990, the recorded history is a bit short here. But  , did you think the unemployment rate in Europe was just at a steady 0% 1960-1990, or did you just not notice? Anyway, I found a better source for you: turns out you're lucky! This better source supports your claim. Especially Poland has a very low unemployment rate right now. I guess I can concede that point. Time to take Grimnarsson's suggestion up and enslave the Ukrainians in Poland, then!
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Apr 27, 2024 09:06
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all i can think of with all this finnish consript chat is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0SSif6CiOI
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Apr 27, 2024 09:13
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Grimnarsson posted:I wonder if this is an expectation you put on yourself and think others put on you, while others, your family members, friends, etc would in reality be less harsh upon you? There's obviously various ways to refuse to fight, some more detestable like a rich person just moving away, and some more acceptable or understandable, like being in terror because you think you couldn't handle the stress of battle, but in general would you be as harsh to your family members or friends who deserted? Like I feel that people put more expectations on themselves than are actually expected of them. I also believe that someone who is not willing to do a thing has no right to shame someone else who is not willing to do that thing either and I think most people instinctively know that, in reference to "most other women would shame me" and that most of them would in fact not shame you. It is not. I mean, ok, maybe I wouldn't lose all my friends, but I would be disowned by my father, go to jail for over a decade (if I don't get lynched in there or summarily executed or some poo poo) and I'd be professionally hosed. To what extent this would materialize doesn't really matter, as my point wasn't to "  woe is me I can't desert without being reviled " but to retort the post that argued that anyone who goes to the front to fight is an empty-headed goober who was tricked into it. There are real pressures that make people choose to fight. When the war started I made the calculus that it's likely better to accept my duty should it come to that and just try to survive. Most soldiers survive wars.I do not know how strong the conscription culture in Ukraine is exactly, but I am sure it is stronger after the war started than before it. Finnish society was electrified after the war in Ukraine started, you could almost taste it. I'd bet that the resolve in Ukraine is strong, but it's hard to get a realistic picture as we only get cherry picked anecdotes from different kinds of media. Qtotonibudinibudet posted:all i can think of with all this finnish consript chat is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0SSif6CiOI lmao
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Apr 27, 2024 09:37
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Paladinus posted:Military production was moved there and other Central Asian republics, so people also were needed to work at the factories. First of all I believe it would require an increased level of military production cooperation that is impossible without a clear roadmap to NATO membership for Ukraine or some sort of strong defense agreement that is non-existent even at conceptual stage yet. Unfortunately Poland providing repair/maintenance for Ukrainian hardware seems to be the limit of that. And even then the vetting process alone makes such proposal a massive bureaucratic headache. Also there is the issue of Ukraine letting its qualified workers who can work on military production out of the country - to put it mildly, it is not in their best interest. Labor going to Poland for has been a problem even before the war, right now people leaving is an existential threat, especially regarding defense industry. The comparison is flimsy since Tajikistan was a part of USSR so the relocation of production was possible under one management. Such production exchanges/outsourcing between sovereign states even under one military alliance in current reality seem extremely difficult. fatherboxx fucked around with this message at 10:08 on Apr 27, 2024 |
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Apr 27, 2024 10:02
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Ynglaur posted:I'll try to do an effort-post later (I've been meaning to for some time), but here are a few thoughts re: drones and tanks. I think you left out weight. Remember, Abrams are only in Ukraine because Scholz wouldn't send Leopards otherwise. The Americans have always said Abrams is unsuitable for Ukraine, and it seems that's in large part due to the soft terrain and poor road infrastructure, unsuitable bridges, etc. on top of logistical and maintenance issues.
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Apr 27, 2024 10:26
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Libluini posted:
Well the EU was formed in 1993 so I assume that's why they found a graph that started at 1990, since they specified in EU's history, not Europe pre-EU. Kchama fucked around with this message at 23:00 on Apr 27, 2024 |
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Apr 27, 2024 10:30
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Hannibal Rex posted:I think you left out weight. We said it was unsuitae because of logistics, not because of weight.
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Apr 27, 2024 11:26
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Ynglaur posted:Actually, 35mm seems to be The Way. Note that the XM913 shoots necked up 35mm cartridges that take the same amount of space, not proportionally scaled ones. It's just a 35mm gun where they decided they preferred more volume in the projectile to higher muzzle velocity, probably so they can fit more HE and electronics in there.  (50mm APFSDS, 50mm HE, 35mm HE) The only reason 35mm guns were in the news was that XM913 was not yet available when the Army started the program, and so they told the participants to fit the 35mm gun that the 50mm was developed from, and which is nearly identical except for the increased tube diameter. Because of delays, at this point both the finalists (Griffin III and Lynx KF41) have been fitted with the XM913.
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Apr 27, 2024 13:22
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Good points, thanks. I was thinking of Rheinmetall's newer SPAAgs, which seem to be 35mm. I think many people don't appreciate just how big the front in Ukraine is. I fear Western militaries are just far to small for a large conventional war.
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Apr 27, 2024 15:10
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Libluini posted:This graph starts counting numbers in 1990, the recorded history is a bit short here. But I wasn't lucky at all. you should read more carefully. I noted "in its recorded history as a unified economic area". the Maastricht Treaty went effective in 1993, and the European monetary union was established in 1999. hence my charts started in the 90s. but yeah, I'm still correct even if you misinterpret my post and look further back in history. Kchama posted:Well the EU was formed in 1993 so I assume that's why they found a graph that started at 1990, since they specified in EU's history, not Europe pre-EU, yeah this
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Apr 27, 2024 15:16
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Pre-90's statistics for Europe are also a bit difficult to compare directly because it's before German reunification and socialist had zero unemployment anyway...
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Apr 27, 2024 18:49
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Nenonen posted:Pre-90's statistics for Europe are also a bit difficult to compare directly because it's before German reunification and socialist had zero unemployment anyway... Plus you’d either have to take the Eastern Bloc’s pre-1990 statistics at face value (lol. Lmao, even) or you’d have to exclude Eastern Europe from your statistics to avoid comparing pre-1990 apples to post-1990 pears
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Apr 27, 2024 21:48
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