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Spinning off from some discussion in the tech nightmares thread, I want to talk about porn. Quick rule:quote:DO NOT TALK ABOUT YOUR PARTICULAR FETISH, NO ONE CARES SICKO OK, so: here are some jumping-off discussion points: LOL the porn industry is hilariously exploitative, it chews up and spits out young girls. Famously Mia Khalifa, one of the biggest 'stars' of the early teens, made just $12,000 and has now become an anti-porn crusader due to how badly the imbalance of pay was. I feel like this is a pretty uncontroversial take; porn is about the farthest thing from unionized an industry can be, from 'suitcase pimps' to the very edges of guys like Max Hardcore who have dubious understanding about performer consent. Deepfakes are wild! https://twitter.com/laurenbarton03/status/1632769865122545664 We are quickly getting to the point where deepfake technology and generative pornography is going to be prosumer- or consumer-grade availability either now or very soon. What controls should we put in place? Is it wrong to offer a service where a grieving widower can get a porno of him and his late wife made? What about "my fursona loving Scarlett Johanssen"? What harm is being done? OnlyFans, the 900 lb gorilla in the room, is radically changing sex work, cutting out the Hollywood Valley set and letting performers get paid directly. While this is a welcome reprieve from the "all porn is free (stolen)" ethos of the big tube sites (well, site, we'll get to that next), what harms and risks does this site engender, being as how they offer little security. Most onlyfans performers are making less than $100 a month; is that good? Should we have a site that promotes this sort of exploitation that offers payouts and big winners/mass losers like twitch streaming? Mindgeek is the organization that owns PornHub.... and redtube, xhamster and all the rest of every major tube site. They collect all the ad revenue and don't share it with creators. Vertical integration, baybee! When they finally were forced to do something about Revenge Porn, they instead overreacted and banned/deleted all user-submitted videos, leaving (conveniently) only content that their subsidiaries created. Anyway, talk about  here. DON'T BE WEIRD!
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Apr 2, 2023 15:45
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Let's read about sex work from actual sex workers instead of goons! Lorelei Lee: Cash & Consent Jon Ronson: The Butterfly Effect, about how the tube sites ruined porn Shrecknet fucked around with this message at 03:53 on Jul 2, 2023 |
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Apr 2, 2023 15:48
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Oh drat that’s why they limited user submissions. I figured it would get turned back on with some controls. That sucks, xHamster (and possibly others) had a great community for crazy oddities that could never be shown on YouTube, VEVO, or whatever. Art films, 50’s touring ‘Health’ garbage, Tom Jones performing with topless showgirls. And on and on and on. It wasn’t something we watched a lot, but it was always there and always an option. A lot of stuff similar to what used to get traded on VHS in 80’s-90’s, with an occasional overlap of one I’d seen back in the day. Any tapes I had are long gone. It’s exactly what we’re seeing with mainstream media; rather than the long tail of cheap storage and infinite content, a few players control everything and shut off whatever isn’t profitable. Not long after the xHamster cutoff, we started working our way slowly through the entire Warner cartoon catalog on Hbomax. Well guess what?
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Apr 2, 2023 22:30
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To add some additional context to the MindGeek post, there was also high profile accusations of facilitating sex trafficking and CASM that was somewhat questionable in terms of evidence but very effective at getting credit card companies to stop payments.
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Apr 3, 2023 19:17
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swap.avi (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 4, 2023 11:46
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The problem with most discussions of porn and the porn industry is that the vast majority of it comes from people outside the industry who are projecting their own hangups and/or fantasies onto it. Thus a lot of the talk (either saying that it is inherently awful and must be eliminated or that it is 100% fine and is an unalloyed good) ignores the voices of the people who actually know the most about what it is really like. So before jumping into any discussion I recommend reading what performers have written about their experiences Lorelei Lee's article in N+1 Cash/Consent is an amazing dissection of the contradictions of working in porn, of how poverty can make consent fraught for any sex work, and how her work was still work that deserved dignity. Lorelei Lee posted:Even in those early years I knew the work was not how anti-sex-work feminists described it. I knew it was as good and as terrible as other, lower-wage work I’d done. I knew, too, how quickly people stopped listening when they began to feel pity. So I pretended. I pretended all of it was a kind of adventure. That what I gained from it was more than rent. I dismissed how much that rent meant to me. I pretended that I was not so poor, that I had not grown up poor. That I had not cried out of fear of not knowing where the money would come from next. That I did not steal food from every restaurant I ever worked in. That I never ate the food people left on their plates. That I did not watch movies about “college kids” with a gripping, painful yearning in every part of my body. That I did not come home from every sex-work job giddy at the possibility of ordering more takeout Chinese food than I could eat, giddy at having enough money to commit the thrill of waste.
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Apr 4, 2023 12:17
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So what are the options \ attempts to organize into a union in the mainstream porn industry at least? Also, apparently there's some sort of health monitoring system in the (once again, not sure if there's a better term here) mainstream porn industry to make sure everyone gets checked regularly and can have safe unprotected sex. Who actually runs that and how?
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Apr 5, 2023 12:04
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LanceHunter posted:The problem with most discussions of porn and the porn industry is that the vast majority of it comes from people outside the industry who are projecting their own hangups and/or fantasies onto it. Thus a lot of the talk (either saying that it is inherently awful and must be eliminated or that it is 100% fine and is an unalloyed good) ignores the voices of the people who actually know the most about what it is really like. So before jumping into any discussion I recommend reading what performers have written about their experiences There was a goon here a while ago who was a director or camera man or something that posted several ASK/TELL threads on the subject but I think it turned out he was a big rear end in a top hat. I don't recall what his deal was but the threads were fun interesting to read.
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Apr 5, 2023 13:06
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Xander77 posted:So what are the options \ attempts to organize into a union in the mainstream porn industry at least? There used to be the Adult Industry Medical Health Care Foundation, which did all the regular testing and provided a lot of other healthcare services for adult performers. Oriana Small has a couple of chapters on it in her memoir Girlvert, where she talks about going to their clinic in LA. A lot of the staff were former performers themselves, and Small recounts one story of being all coked up and going to get her testing, only for her nurse to be the widow of John Holmes (who gave her a dressing-down that Small only later realized was an important step in her realization that she needed to get sober). Alas, they shut down when the database they maintained got breached and basically everybody in their system had all their personal info leaked. Today there is Performer Availability Screening Service, which is run by the Free Speech Coalition. The FSC is mostly a lobbying group for the industry but have started working more closely with various performer groups (mostly the Adult Performer Advocacy Committee) to make more resources available to help performers. As for unionization, there is the Adult Performance Artists' Guild, which gained federal recognition from the labor department in 2021. Since they're an actual union they're much more focused on labor issues and than APAC (which is much more closely tied to the FSC).
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Apr 5, 2023 15:25
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Op is inaccurate because Mia Khalifa is apparently full of poo poo: https://www.ibtimes.com/ex-porn-star-mia-khalifa-allegedly-lied-about-number-adult-videos-she-made-3017190 178k not 12k. Also I’ve been having trouble finding the source but Manuel Ferrara says this girl smells like poo poo so uhh, lmfao. Otherwise, kinda just hoping this topic takes off because the points made in the OP are pretty good and I hope this leads to a really insightful dialogue on how hosed the porn industry is, and how it can be made better. BiggerBoat posted:There was a goon here a while ago who was a director or camera man or something that posted several ASK/TELL threads on the subject but I think it turned out he was a big rear end in a top hat. I don't recall what his deal was but the threads were fun interesting to read. Started on camera, became a director, apparently has a weird cock, and was married to the late august Ames. I remember those threads too. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 5, 2023 15:25
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TheWeedNumber posted:Otherwise, kinda just hoping this topic takes off because the points made in the OP are pretty good and I hope this leads to a really insightful dialogue on how hosed the porn industry is, and how it can be made better. Kevin Moore, username darkpriest. he hasn’t posted in years absent one post in the rip lowtax thread. Works/ed for Evil Angel (AIUI still being credited can be reuse of work so ?) W/r/t August Ames, there’s an Audible series he contributed to, and a book from her mother that he seemingly did not. That’s about as deep as I’m willing to look into that particular story, the homophobia involved is not something I’m keen to engage with and only adds to what is all-around tragic. Pineapple Support Society in part was formed because of that story, and that’s a positive change.
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Apr 5, 2023 16:47
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It's a little wild to think about how much porn drives tech, which I think is what the OP was trying to touch on. For such an unspoken taboo, a lot of people SURE DO like porn. I do. The business decisions of the porn industry drove the format wars of DVD v HDDVD and, before that, VHS v Betamax. That's not even getting into the ubiquity of the internet in the mid to late 90's. We shouldn't kid ourselves that watching people have sex hasn't shaped SO MUCH of the technology we currently use. And it's going to drive Deepfakes in the not too distant future, don't even kid yourse;ves. The thing is, no one wants to be the person that stands up and admits or acknowledges that people do, in fact, like to masturbate and fantasize, especially men and especially in private, so anything that rightfully treats it like real work (it is) that needs real labor laws (it does) is something that nobody wants to attach their name to or got to bat for. They'll take the money, the bribes and sell the ads but no lawmaker wants to be known as "the defender of porn" or "the porno guy" since it's "sinful" and, let's face it, still has the element of shame and embarrassment attached to it. But everyone knows about it. Every (male) I know looks at it. We make jokes about it. It's a big elephant in the room that is not taken seriously, despite how much tech and finance it secretly drives. Or at least contributes to. ... I dunno. We're a long way from beaded curtains in a video store, 8mm reels projected on a bedsheet at stag parties and dirty magazines behind the counter of the gas station and have "moved on" to people being able to essentially view anything they want with a simple Incognito Google search that's like ordering off a menu and I'm not sure how I feel about it beyond realizing that sex is a major MAJOR motivator of human behavior. Probably the second photograph ever taken or the first film ever made was of an attractive naked woman, a sex act, or something close to it. I think porn may have helped open minds and acceptance of certain "weird" lifestyles like BSDM, fetishes, and sexual proclivities outside the mainstream that people were ashamed of having. I have to imagine that gay porn may have made some closeted people feel less isolated and alone or at least provided an outlet for them, so to speak. A lot of "straight" guys like(d) to view trans porn, and perhaps that created an avenue towards, if not acceptance, at least recognizing that it loving exists. It's not going to go AWAY, and it's weird to me that a lot of people think it's more dangerous than something like, say, firearms. But, again, that's built of the foundation of shame, and I think the "problem" with sex on screen, to the extent that there is one, is that it's not looked at as real work, talked about openly and that it brushes up very close against the blurry line of what constitutes prostitution - which we treat as a crime for some reason.
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Apr 6, 2023 01:43
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The issue of sexuality and religion is much more complicated than merely shame. I’d more characterize it as an acknowledgement that : poo poo happens when one parties naked. Religious prohibitions are rules to try to prevent “poo poo happens” that get run through this process. Religious dogma form this way: “FIRST, the natural thought, which is in every religion. SECOND, the methodological development of doctrines. THIRD, the acceptance of some doctrines as protective doctrines against distortions. FOURTH, the legalization of these doctrines as parts of the canonic law. FIFTH, the acceptance of these doctrines as the foundation not only of the Church but also of the state, because the state has no other content than the content the Church gives it., so that he who is supposed to undermine this content not only undermines the Church but also the state.” - History of Christian Thought So to deal with this all you have to face the natural thought at the root of it which is : sometimes bad things happen when we aren’t careful about sex.
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Apr 6, 2023 02:03
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There was a goon named EllisD that had a thread about doing porn too. I don't remember the details though. He was gay too, iirc. I have to imagine the gay side of the porn industry is just as shady as the straight side, but maybe in different ways. As a straight dude I'm out of the loop on that one. EllisD used to be a prolific poster, but haven't seen him in ages. I'm a massive David Simon fan boy so I'm going to suggest everybody watch Hbo's the Deuce it's about porn and prostitution in New York in the 70s to the 80s. Lots of great performances, but Maggie Gyllenhaal is the stand out imo.
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Apr 6, 2023 05:35
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Iirc the user submitted stuff getting removed was largely due to pornhub having both revenge porn and also child porn. They were notorious for maybe removing it, but then their algo would boost a resubmited video almost instantly. Then you had the whole girls do porn issue where the guy running it was drugging and forcing girls to sign contracts, several of which were under 18, and one of which literally signed it the day she turned 18. Oh and several that demanded he remove or delete the videos that they had attempted to void the contract he had them signed. He instead boosted them and flooded them on tube sites. There's a massive amount of shady poo poo and mindgeek is just the tip of that iceberg. You could have a book just on the poo poo that happened in the girls do porn moniker and how hosed that was.
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Apr 6, 2023 13:46
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I've mentioned this before, but Jon Ronson's The Butterfly Effect (2017) is a pretty good look at how porn transitioning from """professional""" shoots to websites full of mostly stolen content affected the workers. http://www.jonronson.com/butterfly.html IIRC it doesn't discuss the new industry pipeline where you start in porn and then, to actually make money, move out of it into unboxing videos for your thirsty parasocial fans, as that to my knowledge is relatively new. But it does discuss the Pornhub guys, the destruction of pre-Internet porn studios, digital porn being a permanent scarlet letter (since everyone will recognize you everywhere you go), the rise of custom order fetish content, and other things. Generally the Internet caused the industry to just go to different forms of corruption and abuse. UCS Hellmaker posted:Iirc the user submitted stuff getting removed was largely due to pornhub having both revenge porn and also child porn. They were notorious for maybe removing it, but then their algo would boost a resubmited video almost instantly. Then you had the whole girls do porn issue where the guy running it was drugging and forcing girls to sign contracts, several of which were under 18, and one of which literally signed it the day she turned 18. Oh and several that demanded he remove or delete the videos that they had attempted to void the contract he had them signed. He instead boosted them and flooded them on tube sites. Yeah just because it was a prudish billionaire asking the right friends if they could prove their banking companies were not aiding criminal conspiracies does not necessarily mean that he was wrong.
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Apr 6, 2023 16:03
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what's the vibe with OnlyFans? Is the influx of B-list celebs like Bella Thorne monetizing nothing but bikini pics you could see in US Weekly sucking up finite money that should be going to content creators who aren't independently famous and rich? Or does their presence on the platform legitimize it in a way that gets more eyeballs and payments to other performers than they otherwise would? Did the ridiculous "pivot to SFW content" of OnlyFansTV die so quickly because of how stupid it was or because it was never meant to exist, just placate billing processors? What do you see as the future of OF? Twitch-style "98% of accounts have less than 5 subs" ghost towns except for the winners? Are we just in a gold rush and usage will recede to normal levels or is the gold rush over and this is the new normal? Shrecknet fucked around with this message at 19:12 on Apr 9, 2023 |
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Apr 9, 2023 19:07
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Shouldn't the thread also cover sex work in a broader sense? The progressive, feminist, position is decriminalization.
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Apr 9, 2023 20:05
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I cannot imagine there is any debate or discussion to be had about more intimate sex work - it should be safe and legal everywhere, what is there to discuss?
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Apr 9, 2023 21:14
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“How” is the question to discuss. Germany has legal prostitution on a large scale, but it is not necessarily safe. There is a lot of human trafficking of people for forced sex work and little in the way of protection for the workers from the pimps and clients.
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Apr 9, 2023 21:20
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Shrecknet posted:I cannot imagine there is any debate or discussion to be had about more intimate sex work - it should be safe and legal everywhere, what is there to discuss? If that is the consensus, ok. Full decriminalization is not the current law in most places.
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Apr 9, 2023 21:23
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doverhog posted:Shouldn't the thread also cover sex work in a broader sense? The progressive, feminist, position is decriminalization. I mean, go ahead and post your ideas about it then?
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Apr 9, 2023 23:03
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Speaking solely of the US here, the primary forces opposed to sex work becoming less looked down on and then eventually decriminalized are the same forces opposed to a whole bunch of other things which basically everyone here agrees are net societal goods. The hyper-partisan puritanical bullshit attached to conservatism and the capitalist class will need to be taken down at least in part before anything can be done on a large scale. The best we can hope for in the interim is small scale - decriminalization of sex work on the city level, to start with.
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Apr 10, 2023 01:05
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doverhog posted:If that is the consensus, ok. Full decriminalization is not the current law in most places. The average voter is not a goon.
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Apr 10, 2023 01:46
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BiggerBoat posted:I mean, go ahead and post your ideas about it then? Sex work is work, and it can't really be discussed without also dealing with the concept of "work", money, and capitalism in a broader sense. Any attempt to ban or restrict it without first dealing with the forces that would make someone do it when they don't want to will always be a net negative to society. Similar to how prohibition of drugs or alcohol is.
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Apr 10, 2023 01:51
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no reasonable person disputes that sex work is work. The average voter is not reasonable. I'm open to discussing how we break through that there's no stigma that should be attached. Best success I've had is explaining that there is no daylight between being a prostitute and a construction worker. you're breaking your body for a boss that couldn't give a poo poo about you and at the end of the day you really need a shower.
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Apr 10, 2023 01:56
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Shrecknet posted:what's the vibe with OnlyFans? Is the influx of B-list celebs like Bella Thorne monetizing nothing but bikini pics you could see in US Weekly sucking up finite money that should be going to content creators who aren't independently famous and rich? Or does their presence on the platform legitimize it in a way that gets more eyeballs and payments to other performers than they otherwise would? The OnlyFans pivot-to-SFW was at least in part an attempt to head off at the pass a round of hit pieces by Exodus Cry and their affiliated talking heads, trying to kneecap OF the same way they did PornHub. However, OF realized that they had a lot more support among performers than PornHub ever did (a natural result of making your money when performers make money as opposed to making money by pirating performers' work). Since they felt they had a stronger case in the event that Visa and/or Mastercard considered dropping them, they reversed the call. As for the remaining SFW OnlyFans content, they are taking things in some...weird directions. Like this roast of Bert Kreischer: https://onlyfans.com/558121094/onlyfans The weirder thing happening with OF right now are managed profiles. The NY Times, of course, called them e-pimps based on the words of one guy running one of the smaller agencies but who clearly gave a shitload of the kind of access they wanted for their profile (non-paywall link). quote:Two years later, Rosero has the OnlyFans operation more or less routinized. When he starts managing a new client, he asks for a bank of nude photos and videos. Rosero’s ghostwriters — known in the industry as chatters — will act as the model in private messages with the customers who pay to talk to her. These chatters work in shifts, responding to incoming messages and reaching out to new subscribers, trying to coax them into buying expensive pay-per-view videos. They tell particular subscribers that a video was recorded just for them; in fact, the same clip might be sold to dozens of people. The chatters earn a small percentage on most sales, and the rest is split between the agency and the model. The subscribers presumably think they’re talking directly to the woman in the videos, and it is the job of the chatter to convincingly manifest that illusion. Their clientele — typically horny, lonely men — make it pretty easy. “Our best customers come to us not so much to buy content as they come to us to just feel a connection,” reads a post on Think Expansion’s website. This desire, the post explains, is a pimp’s bread and butter, “e-” or otherwise: “Hustling simps has been an art since the beginning of time!” I suspect that this form of OF will burn out pretty quickly. It is pretty easy to tell when an OF profile has been taken over by an agency, as you'll suddenly start getting tons of unsolicited messages (and not the typical "here's my latest PPV video" ones, but stuff like "hey bb, 'sup?"). Then again, even not taking agencies into account, everyone I know in person who has an OF also has someone else answering their messages. For example, one local comic who has an OF as a side-hustle just has her boyfriend answer all messages. doverhog posted:If that is the consensus, ok. Full decriminalization is not the current law in most places. Legalization (setting rules and regulations under which it can be done legally) vs decriminalization (it is simply no longer illegal) was a big topic of debate among the sex workers' rights movement a while back. There are a few reasons that decriminalization is more popular among that crowd. The first is that a lot of "legalization" bills are actually Swedish Model criminalization efforts. Second is that a lot of cases of existing regulation/legalization end up exacerbating inequities (like, if you can only work in a licensed brothel, and the owner of the brothel is a loving shithead, the only way you can legally work is to work for that shithead). Third is that, for better or for worse, there is often a pretty big libertarian streak among many sex workers. That's probably a natural result of having to build a life and career outside the law. Maggie McNeil's blog is a great reference on the sex workers' rights movement, but man sometimes you'll see some stuff in there that feels right out of Ayn Rand.
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Apr 10, 2023 02:11
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Shrecknet posted:Is it wrong to offer a service where a grieving widower can get a porno of him and his late wife made? That one is actually an interesting question. I think it would be weird as gently caress and very sad to yank it to my dead wife I loved and grieved for with a digitally generated porno. But there is... Probably no harm there? At least other than that to that person's mental health. Like even if you've made your own videos together (safely stored and encrypted), I can't imagine ever wanking to that again after they pass. But I suppose there is no real harm in that case, except maybe hurting your brain more. But then if you are someone providing that service for $, knowing it's going to probably hurt the person buying it, or worse, have them share or sell it... That's way across the hosed up unethical line. Deepfaking your actor of choice who doesn't do porn or whatever other sort of celeb is also reallllly creepy weird, and you should feel dirty and bad for doing that, but I think that's pretty inevitable, because humans.
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Apr 10, 2023 02:13
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Shrecknet posted:Best success I've had is explaining that there is no daylight between being a prostitute and a construction worker. you're breaking your body for a boss that couldn't give a poo poo about you and at the end of the day you really need a shower. Sex involves our emotional and physical connections to other people. Construction work does not. Here’s a counter example. We could say instead “that there is no daylight between being a soldier and a construction worker.” This is not to say it isn’t work, just that within the category “work” there are meaningful differences in types of work particularly when meaning or social purpose is tied up with the work.
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Apr 10, 2023 02:37
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The Butcher posted:That one is actually an interesting question. I think it would be weird as gently caress and very sad to yank it to my dead wife I loved and grieved for with a digitally generated porno. But there is... Probably no harm there? At least other than that to that person's mental health. In general making porn of people without their consent & permission is deeply creepy though. Like on the one hand you have some happy couples where the dead partner maybe would've been happy with something like this (though it would still be kinda weird and uncomfortable even if you explicitly asked for consent while the person was alive) but then what about the unhappy sexless marriages where two people haven't been physically intimate in 10 years but then the guy comes in to the porn-o-mart and lies to them about how their sex life was great and his dead wife would definitely really love having a video made of her. Bar Ran Dun posted:Sex involves our emotional and physical connections to other people. Being a self-help guru like Jordan Peterson also involves emotional and physical connections to other people but doesn't get anywhere near the amount of stigma sex work does, so it's more than just that. Or hell even internet streamers whose whole business is about cultivating a parasocial relationship with their viewers, like the one vtuber who sold engagement rings as merch to her extremely lonely extremely male audience.  OK people view the customers there as super pathetic but nobody really goes on about how the streamer should be stoned to death in the village square. Sex is "special" for a lot of moral and religious reasons to a lot of people. RPATDO_LAMD fucked around with this message at 03:31 on Apr 10, 2023 |
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Apr 10, 2023 03:21
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Shrecknet posted:what's the vibe with OnlyFans? Is the influx of B-list celebs like Bella Thorne monetizing nothing but bikini pics you could see in US Weekly sucking up finite money that should be going to content creators who aren't independently famous and rich? A lot of the anger was over the apparent falsehood she sold her platform on. Cardi B has/had an account that basically served as "pay money get some behind the scenes stuff and daily bs", and she was super upfront about the account not peddling nudity. So folks that subscribed probably felt more like they were kicking her $5 because they liked her/wanted fanclub poo poo/etc.
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Apr 10, 2023 07:02
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Sex involves our emotional and physical connections to other people. It has a physical connection (I can imagine some scenarios where there isn't, but I would think they are relatively rare overall), but there are other professions that require physical contact that aren't controversial. I'm also not sure why physical contact with another person would be considered worse than the immediate physical pain and lasting damage something like construction work can do. Sex work is clearly not something for everyone, but neither is construction work. And nobody should be forced to do either against their will just to afford the basic necessities of life, but 
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Apr 10, 2023 09:21
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RPATDO_LAMD posted:In general making porn of people without their consent & permission is deeply creepy though. Well yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying. Any for profit thing is gonna get way weird and bad (though inevitable and already basically here). You probably shouldn't be wanking to a dead person you loved even if the materials were consensual, not healthy behavior most like, but whatever, it's not my biz, just please don't go brain problems. Making non consensual fake porno of your exes, dead or alive is just a hard no if you have a shred of ethics or sanity remaining.
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Apr 10, 2023 10:51
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Inferior Third Season posted:Sex work is clearly not something for everyone, but neither is construction work. Obviously societal attitudes can also influence the emotional impact of work, which seems a key part in making the work worse for the people who'd otherwise be content enough with the work. That said, an objection to defining sex work as simply work I often see is that it risks opening the door to essentially the state saying "Do sex work or we'll take your benefits" to the unemployed. I think it might make sense to extend that logic further and include more jobs in the category of "jobs the state absolutely can't treat as just another job". It's one thing if sex work is specifically singled out, but if you expand it to other occupations that lie well outside the comfort zone of most people then it'd be normalized in a fashion. I mean, it'd be easier if people weren't forced to work, but within a liberal framework I think this division would make sense.
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Apr 10, 2023 11:08
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Apart from the sites listed I think another somewhat big player that could be mentioned is Patreon. They don't have explicitly pornographic content but they do have 'erotic' or 'adult' content that is creators selling nude content of themselves (or drawn/cg art they made) Which could definitely be considered sex work and has some of the same parasocial elements of an only fans. Onlyfans itself has pages that are not explicit or models who don't do nudity, which probably still qualifies as sex work.
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Apr 10, 2023 14:03
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Inferior Third Season posted:Sex having an emotional connection is not universal for all people in all situations, even outside of the context of sex work. First, I’m for full decriminalizing. But this carries an awful lot of water. What percentage of folks of would you consider to not have a social / emotional connections to sex? quote="Inferior Third Season" post="531078473"] Sex work is clearly not something for everyone, but neither is construction work. And nobody should be forced to do either against their will just to afford the basic necessities of life, but [/quote] But that’s just it isn’t it. We are forcing folks to work against it their will. As they say . So is there a difference between needing/being forced by economics to take a construction job to have food and shelter and sex work for the same. At least for the vast majority of people there is.
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Apr 10, 2023 16:16
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A Buttery Pastry posted:That said, an objection to defining sex work as simply work I often see is that it risks opening the door to essentially the state saying "Do sex work or we'll take your benefits" to the unemployed. There was a short period of that in Germany, I can’t remember exactly what they did to fix it.
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Apr 10, 2023 16:32
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Bar Ran Dun posted:But that’s just it isn’t it. We are forcing folks to work against it their will. As they say Did you read the Lorelei Lee piece linked earlier ITT? She directly addresses most of the points you are bringing up here.
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Apr 10, 2023 16:59
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LanceHunter posted:Did you read the Lorelei Lee piece linked earlier ITT? She directly addresses most of the points you are bringing up here. I did. I think it should be fully decriminalized. I think we should not stigmatize folks that do it. I just don’t find either of those things attached particularly, to an acknowledgement that for most people sex is different. It is “special” because within their lives it is special and meaningful. RPATDO_LAMD posted:Being a self-help guru like Jordan Peterson also involves emotional and physical connections to other people but doesn't get anywhere near the amount of stigma sex work does, so it's more than just that. Now Jordan Peterson, that’s a man fishing for young men to turn into fascists… we should absolutely stigmatize what he is doing. We should be socially / morally condemning Jorden Peterson in the strongest terms.
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Apr 10, 2023 17:47
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Tism the Dragon Tickler posted:Speaking solely of the US here, the primary forces opposed to sex work becoming less looked down on and then eventually decriminalized are the same forces opposed to a whole bunch of other things which basically everyone here agrees are net societal goods. The hyper-partisan puritanical bullshit attached to conservatism and the capitalist class will need to be taken down at least in part before anything can be done on a large scale. The US very obviously has weird hangups and self-hate regarding sex and sexuality relative to other developed Western nations, and it's pretty bipartisan. Even feminists are split on it. I don't think we'll likely see any traction on anything without a significant union push in the industry. But even without the sex hangups in this country, the best hope for improving material conditions for most workers in general seems to be aggressively unionizing, so perhaps porn is not all that unique in that regard.
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Apr 10, 2023 18:05
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