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Why should kids be age cohorted for their instruction? It seems pretty obvious that different kids will develop at very different rates (that will also vary by discipline, and over time, etc.), so why group all of them together? Why do only some students deserve individualized instruction?
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Apr 22, 2023 19:46
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why don’t all students get quality project based learning?
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Apr 22, 2023 19:47
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Greg Legg posted:I'd love to hear what you think about this, but haven't you been sick for a while?? We've been trying to figure out what the issue is for like 3 months. Just now got put on a heavier dose of antibiotics and 4 other things just in case lol They also mentioned pneumonia as a possible cause but don't know if it's severe enough now to justify that treatment NeatHeteroDude has issued a correction as of 20:40 on Apr 22, 2023 |
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Apr 22, 2023 20:33
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NeatHeteroDude posted:I'll also have a longer reply sometime soon. Just been super sick. I think Gregg and I differ a little on the reasons for people disliking ABA but we both agree that there are some bad people doing bad aba. why is a mod promoting killing people?
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Apr 22, 2023 20:53
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have you seen my baby posted:Why should kids be age cohorted for their instruction? so this is something of great personal interest to me as a former gifted smarty pants rear end in a top hat as well as a teacher in a discipline where we group students by ability and experience rather than strictly by age. short version is we’ve settled on age cohorts generally being the avenue of least potential harm to the most amount of students. Is this question directed toward elementary school or K-12 because elem is the age we cohort solely by age the most commonly. in middle school we have honors classes and elective classes like mine where while we are still talking about kids being 11-12 in 6th, 12-13 in 7th, etc they are being further separated along interest and ability lines in individual classes. then in high school the lines further get blurred - I was in classes with seniors as a freshman at my high school, especially in the more specialized courses. there’s also good arguments for grouping students with a variety of needs, talents, skills, etc. there’s a common perception (especially among former gifted students like myself) that having the “dumb” or the “lazy” or “unserious” kids in the “good” classes makes for a poorer experience for all. research appears to show the opposite, however. when the community aspect of the classroom is emphasized, all students tend to show gains. plus there’s the fact that we should really be having our schools reflect our cultural values. separating by age is something that can’t be massaged into supporting -isms whereas separation by things like “maturity level” “ability” “behavior” “development level” absolutely can be and most often are. like I said this is how my particular discipline sorts students, rather than by age and it’s something that I can show by data excludes certain demographics of students from my advanced groups almost categorically. (this is a horrible thing that I don’t want, obviously, but like many horrible things is not something I can cleanly solve in a day. restructuring my classes by age cohort would address it in some ways while also causing one million other problems. I have made some changes to my program that I believe will address the issue, but I won’t have data to support for at least 1-2 more years and I have no doubt what I’ll find is that it helped, but it’s still not equitable and I have to try something new and keep working at it) anyway. I hope that offers something to chew on at least. to your last question, I would really like every kid to have an IEP! this would require a complete overhaul of our schooling system and would probably triple the financial cost as well because the whole system is set up to have teachers teach big classes and barely attend important meetings like IEPs/504s/etc. if all of my students had a specialized education plan, I would have at least one two hour+ meeting per day for the entire school year. since I am usually called out of classes to attend meetings, this is unworkable on its face. this doesn’t even get into things like caseloads - if everyone has an individualized plan, someone needs to administrate that plan. and yet I still think we should do this and build meeting times into the school day/week because I am a crazy person but also because you are right, individual students need individual attention.
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Apr 22, 2023 21:36
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https://twitter.com/yolandafister/status/1649513490841739264?s=20
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Apr 22, 2023 21:38
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Bar Ran Dun posted:why don’t all students get quality project based learning? because teachers get old, burnt out and bitter and then when something cool comes along we all throw a fit instead of embracing it. also, $$$$$$$$$$ this is a terrible and depressing answer I know. but i mostly responded to share that I started a class this year that is project based and the kids really seem to enjoy it which is exciting  but I am learning firsthand how difficult it is to adjust my expectation of what a class “should” be and what kids “should” be doing and how to even tell if a kid working on some wild project is “on task” because there’s so much under-the-surface thinking and learning happening when kids are talking to each other or loving around with tools and equipment instead of “completing the task.” I read a study last year that basically took notes on kids trying to complete a project together with zero teacher assistance, even to supervise. basically they found that the kids appeared to be off task and shooting the poo poo, but then when they were ready and dug in they produced an awesome result, whereas the kids who felt supervised were “on task” the whole time and produced a so-so result. so teaching teachers to reconsider all their preconceived notions of what learning looks like is just tricky. I know I am constantly taking deep breaths and going “they are good kiddos, just give them space” lmao
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Apr 22, 2023 21:45
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Bar Ran Dun posted:why don’t all students get quality project based learning? I taught at a middle school for years and the science instruction for one of the 7th grade science classes was entirely project based. There was a massive aquaponic system behind the classroom. The kids learned how it works and how to maintain it. It was really impressive. IThis was in a pretty wealthy neighborhood.
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Apr 22, 2023 22:02
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I guess the real problem I have is when I compare what could be happening with project learning to something like Eureka math. I mean I see and get what they are trying to do with that curriculum. But compare it to one like Singapore math. Eureka is Singapore made boring with a heaping spoon of Russian suffering stirred in. there also seems to be a trend towards removing flexibility for any deviations by teachers in lesson plans. it’s extremely demoralizing to see as a parent. I’d imagine it’s more demoralizing to teachers as it’s a deprofessionalization of what you do.
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Apr 22, 2023 22:16
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Bar Ran Dun posted:I guess the real problem I have is when I compare what could be happening with project learning to something like Eureka math. I mean I see and get what they are trying to do with that curriculum. But compare it to one like Singapore math. Eureka is Singapore made boring with a heaping spoon of Russian suffering stirred in. My opinion is/has always been that if you're properly engaging students with differentiated material, assessments, etc., even what seems dry on paper should be very good. At a certain point kids do need to sit down and be instructed to fluency in standard algorithm for multiplication even though it's not anywhere near as interesting as teaching some other way, but research gives us a lot of insights into what we can do to get participation, eliminate hurdles during instruction, support kids, etc. Edit: project based learning can be married really well to the type of instruction I'm talking about, but it's important to remember that kids aren't going to be given that kind of experience at every grade level. A sneaky part of classroom management and instruction is that you teach the kids to sit in their desks and follow along while you model a math skill. It teaches them to demonstrate that skill using pencil and paper on an assessment (quiz or test) that resembles the work they'll do in school until graduating college. Voices off when you're talking is an important skill that they need to perform fluently before middle school and especially before high school because the stakes are so high then that they no longer just get redirected or given behavior support. The expectation is that they've mastered these skills by high school, and students who haven't are boned NeatHeteroDude has issued a correction as of 22:28 on Apr 22, 2023 |
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Apr 22, 2023 22:22
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NeatHeteroDude posted:My opinion is/has always been that if you're properly engaging students with differentiated material, assessments, etc., even what seems dry on paper should be very good. At a certain point kids do need to sit down and be instructed to fluency in standard algorithm for multiplication even though it's not anywhere near as interesting as teaching some other way, but research gives us a lot of insights into what we can do to get participation, eliminate hurdles during instruction, support kids, etc. it doesn’t interact with learning differences well even with differentiation. I can’t write it out now but I will later
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Apr 22, 2023 22:29
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Smythe posted:thead reminded me of this post lol
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Apr 22, 2023 22:32
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Bar Ran Dun posted:it doesn’t interact with learning differences well even with differentiation. I can’t write it out now but I will later Eureka math? Idk but yeah if it doesn't directly account for differentiation (most grade level mathematics programs have like 2% dedicated to that), it's on the teacher to do that during prep. Like, I'll make 3 exit tickers if I'm teaching a gen ed mathematics lesson. 1 will be at the medium level, 1 low, 1 high. They all have the same skills, but some are more scaffolded. Maybe instead of having them solve 3 digit x 3 digit multiplication on scrap paper, I give lower kids a sheet where they have little boxes to fill in with numbers where part of the problem is already completed. Because I don't want their math facts fluency interfering with them learning how to multiply in the correct order, I'll have every problem be 3 x 3 with only digits like 1, 2, 3, or 4, and never in a combination that involves carrying values Edit: it's also important to note that you can make minor accommodations for students as part of UDL (evidence based practices for allowing kids to access information) like giving them alternative ways to acquire and demonstrate skills. But I've always sort of rejected the different learner types stuff because good instruction involves all of them. If a kid has a learner difference severe enough to seriously impact their academic skills even after we provide supports, they might benefit from an eligibility screening for some special education services. Like I can place a kid with adhd in a quieter space so they can focus but if he's still struggling with that there could be something else we can do after an assessment from the school psych or sped teacher (me) NeatHeteroDude has issued a correction as of 22:51 on Apr 22, 2023 |
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Apr 22, 2023 22:34
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The goal of differentiation isn't to make things easier, it's to provide support by eliminating things outside of what the learning target is about so the kids are just practicing the skill you want them to master. I want them to learn the standard algorithm for multiplying 3 digit whole numbers. Instead of giving them just 2 or 1 digit numbers, I'm going to box out weaker skills like math facts and writing to make sure they leave the class with fluency. It's like you're trying to hone in on one or two things by getting rid of distractions. If the kids need to learn more of their math facts, I'll work on that individually or in a small group some other time. I just want them to be able to do the multiplication steps in the right order
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Apr 22, 2023 22:40
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This seems a little harsh. I want to preface my answer by saying that most good teachers will have elements of different instructional styles that they feel effective using from many different forms of teaching. Things like Universal Design for Learning (UDL) are effective guidelines for giving your kids more than one way to access what you're teaching and demonstrate knowledge. Not every kid needs to read a book and take notes. Maybe they would benefit from a different way to learn the material? Not every kid needs to show me they know about narrative fiction by writing a story on paper. What if they wrote a script on a computer and acted it out? There are a lot of ways we can make learning more interesting and accessible for kids who need it. Bar Ran Dun posted:why don’t all students get quality project based learning? A couple of things: First, there's extremely weak or no evidence that it's better than other forms of instruction Not to be adversarial to other teachers, but one of the big barriers to PBL is the lack of quality research validating that is more effective (or even just not worse) than other forms of instruction. If I'm a new teacher and I want to decide how I'll invest my time during class, I should be looking at the practices that are backed up by hundreds of studies, meta-analyses, etc., to figure out which components I can learn and add to my instruction. Project-based learning is often anecdotally successful, and teachers who do it report that it works. One possibility could be that those anecdotes self-select because teachers implementing those practices are working in schools that allow that (usually wealthier) and are, themselves, good teachers. Those teachers will be successful in that environment because they're well-supported, care about their kids, can effectively manage classroom behavior, etc., which are also skills that would help them succeed otherwise. Existing Project-Based Learning Research The research on PBL is generally pretty rough. This study, for example: https://diser.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/s43031-019-0009-6 has a lot of major flaws and clear, unacceptable biases in how they massage and present their case for PBL. If you are biased so far in one direction that you can't conduct your research without taking shots at another competing method, you can't be trusted to produce legitimate results. Ignoring that, the study is poorly controlled. Their experimental group received “curriculum, instructional materials, and robust professional development supports for teachers.” They compared this group to a control group of classrooms doing “business as usual.” The study is then comparing a classroom where teachers are being supplied with curriculum, instructional materials, and professional development training and support throughout the period. So teachers doing PBL were trained and given their materials and curriculum beforehand/throughout the experiment, whereas their control group just did things normally. This is bad research on the face of it because there's a clear intent to portray PBL as superior to business as usual. Unbiased research in education focuses on the facts: did students improve their abilities to demonstrate skills on a well-designed assessment of academic performance? These are very important questions because they have a massive impact on children for the rest of their lives. In contrast, there's evidence that PBL can either do nothing or harm instructional outcomes. https://educationendowmentfoundation.org.uk/projects-and-evaluation/projects/project-based-learning In this study, 2101 students over 12 schools were measured for a year to determine whether REAL project PBL learning would increase their learning outcomes. This study was initiated by the organization that created the PBL type implemented. Their conclusions were as follows: PBL Study posted:
1. PBL had no clear impact on literacy or student engagement with school and learning. 2. Even with significant support from the PBL org, evidence across these intervention skills strongly suggests PBL decreased student achievement in literacy overall, but this was especially bad in "free lunch (poor)" schools. This is particularly problematic. Title 1 schools are everywhere and where I typically work. Our kids are incredibly poor, in unstable housing, victims of violence and abuse, etc. This is not a "teacher skill" issue, it's a programmatic onc, and has a direct negative impact on equity in education, which bothers me! 3. The majority of drop outs (schools saying "no thanks" to the study) came from those implementing the PBL style. While it's impossible to verify why this happened, I think there's an obvious conclusion there. Schools did not want to receive free programmatic materials and professional development in these styles. What's more, no data were collected from PBL schools who dropped, which is interesting in that those are the schools I'd like to know more about. 4. Many teachers and PBL people anecdotally report that PBL is good. 5. The org provided PBL support to teachers and admin, and found they were implementing the program correctly. This means that even when properly implemented and supported, PBL programs produced no evidence for positive outcomes and stronger evidence for negative outcomes. The author's conclusions: "PBL friendly study posted:The existing international evidence on the effectiveness of PBL is relatively weak, and this research contributes to the evidence base from an English perspective. In summary, although PBL is unlikely to improve children’s literacy outcomes or engagement, it may enhance the quality of children’s learning, particularly improving some of the skills required for future learning and employment. So, from my perspective, there's enough evidence that PBL may, at best, do nothing and some that suggests it may actually make things worse, even if applied school-wide. Even if we disregard that some PBL schools literally dropped out and, I guess, their data were lost, the findings of this study are incredibly negative and do not make the case that PBL is an effective instructional practice. Conclusion If I am a new teacher, administrator, etc., and I genuinely want to help my kids learn and develop skills that will help them do well in the future, I'm not going to go with PBL learning. There's no strong evidence to suggest it is any better than anything else and requires a significant resource investment to instruct. There is stronger evidence that it can actually harm my students' learning. If I were a teacher, I would not go to make the case to my principal for PBL learning. I'd just do the things educational researchers and ed psych people have shown through 100s of studies and decades of work are effective practices that most teachers can implement with rigor. Final edit: There isn't really a cabal of my colleagues and me blocking and preventing PBL from being implemented. We want to do what works best to support our kids, and if there were evidence that PBL could help them learn and develop fluency in skills, we would be the ones pushing to get it going. Our job is to help kids learn because they're screwed if they hit adult life and don't know how to spell words phonetically, or compare and contrast, or wash hands, or anything else. If we know one method works and we know one method either may work or makes things worse, we would be way in the wrong to choose the latter over the former. If anyone wants to read a really famous paper in education research that talks a lot about the failings of PBL in comparison to other forms of teaching, you can find it here: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1207/s15326985ep4102_1 It's a massively popular paper that's well cited and was published by some of the most august and respected people in the field. NeatHeteroDude has issued a correction as of 00:37 on Apr 23, 2023 |
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Apr 22, 2023 23:44
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I don’t think that was harsh. I appreciate the rundown! I just finished my masters and read a lot of articles on PBL. some people are very very excited about it and others are not. I am not surprised that kids with fewer supports outside of school (so title 1/socio-economically disadvantaged) don’t benefit much from it (or possibly at all). I see similar issues in my project-based class. my students who already know how to work independently - so my kiddos who are teachers’ kids or otherwise getting schooling outside of school - really blossom in it while my other students often get stuck. it requires a lot of scaffolding to make sure that second group doesn’t just stop learning anything. this is not necessarily the best use of time for a teacher, though in my specific case I do think it is of benefit to my students. one thing I wish we would support more in education is variety - I don’t think an entire school doing PBL is a good thing frankly. in particular it seems like a silly way to teach algorithmic math skills like you pointed out nhd. but I think my PBL- style class that kids can choose to sign up for is an excellent use. some kid is going to be like, I’m so glad I did this it’s exactly what I needed. but some other kid - maybe many other kids - are going to be grateful they had a “traditional” setup in their classroom that supported their learning. I thought about and should have elaborated on why teachers resist change so much and this is a great example why. everyone is always trying to get us to totally upend everything we do in service of the new hotness, whether that’s total mainstreaming for sped, project based learning, SEL, or what have you. after about ten years or so you start realizing that people just get excited and make you change what you know is working and good for your students and then once you have a handle on that, it’s time to throw it all out because studies are starting to turn against it/point out its flaws and now it’s time for the new hotness. I would like to say that I am still looking to read more studies on PBL before making a final decision on whether it’s effective or not. just as one study showing promise isn’t enough to solidify the potential of something, I don’t think one study identifying issues is enough to throw it out either. I’m especially curious to know if PBL changes in effectiveness across disciplines and I have a feeling over the next few years there will be more studies looking at that in particular. who knows though, maybe we’ll be on to the next new hotness by then
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Apr 23, 2023 00:39
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Hawkperson posted:I don’t think that was harsh. I appreciate the rundown! I just finished my masters and read a lot of articles on PBL. some people are very very excited about it and others are not. I am not surprised that kids with fewer supports outside of school (so title 1/socio-economically disadvantaged) don’t benefit much from it (or possibly at all). I see similar issues in my project-based class. my students who already know how to work independently - so my kiddos who are teachers’ kids or otherwise getting schooling outside of school - really blossom in it while my other students often get stuck. it requires a lot of scaffolding to make sure that second group doesn’t just stop learning anything. this is not necessarily the best use of time for a teacher, though in my specific case I do think it is of benefit to my students. I appreciate the good faith reading, too. I tried to emphasize that it's your good teaching and classroom management running the show, with PBL being something you are really good at using, but that may have been lost in the weeds. Also there ARE a lot of cranky teachers out there doing "something" that both you and I have probably bounced of. The same people being too set in their ways to do pbl are also too set in their ways to implement behaviorist methods like explicit instruction or positive behavior supports. I imagine they're also the ones with poorer outcomes lol
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Apr 23, 2023 00:45
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Lots of teachers are genuinely upset by being asked to read research of any kind lol
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Apr 23, 2023 00:46
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the other wider question that I’ve been wrangling with in the past few years is what is the purpose of schooling and is the way we do it actually what we should be doing? I really didn’t like my Ed philosophy class lol but I’m glad that it forced me to consider that big question. because part of the question of “is [education strategy] effective” is what does that mean, and why is that what we’re aiming for? I think many teachers believe strongly in being an asset to the kids who might not be “okay” much less “successful” because of the barriers they face for whatever reason. I also feel this way to be clear. but do I agree with the things society places pressure on us to do and be, and how do I feel about being the conduit through which society effectively indoctrinates the next generation of kids? to make this a little less wishy washy, I’m thinking specifically of how my middle schoolers in 2015-ish were obsessed with STEM to the exclusion of anything else. they were convinced STEM was their path out of poverty, and any distraction from that was unacceptable. so in middle school they were already talking about what college they HAD to go to and what test scores they’d need and having panic attacks about getting a B on some test. as teachers, we’re the ones that instill values like that in them. is that the value I want to teach? idk. but then again, who am I to turn a kid away from something they may be very right to identify as their path to a better situation/life? idk as well. it’s extra frustrating as the true solution pretty obviously is to tackle poverty, not make these kids feel like a B in 7th grade means their life is over!
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Apr 23, 2023 00:54
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NeatHeteroDude posted:Lots of teachers are genuinely upset by being asked to read research of any kind lol lmao for real. you know what else it is, it’s April (and April of a really particularly hard year) so my perspective ever so naturally heads towards accusing everyone else of being crabs in a bucket but obviously I am not the crab, I’m allowed to complain and tear down my fellow teacher but if someone did it to me I’d complain about them too edit: I’ll be more pleasant but also more naive in summer and the first weeks of school. it’s a terrible cycle
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Apr 23, 2023 00:58
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NeatHeteroDude posted:Lots of teachers are genuinely upset by being asked to read research of any kind lol i recently learned about the reading wars and it's totally wild that the completely unscientific (and what sounds like utter nonsense to me anyway) that kids will acquire reading naturally if you surround them with books. like lol. anyway is there any way for parents to evaluate this stuff? my son is only a few years away from starting school and i really don't want him taught reading strategies like "look at pictures to see if you can guess what an unfamiliar word means"
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Apr 23, 2023 00:59
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what do you think about widespread emotional dysfunction in kids, is it just a local problem? I dunno how to embed a video so e.g.: https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnewsvideo/comments/12tpenb/a_texas_schoolteacher_shares_how_hard_teaching/ from most teacher accounts or tangential teachers i know irl, teaching has become impossible the past several years and even people whove been doing poo poo for 3+ decades are just done since it's gotten so unmanagable. Xaris has issued a correction as of 01:03 on Apr 23, 2023 |
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Apr 23, 2023 01:00
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The real problem is we have science class but not immortal science class
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Apr 23, 2023 01:07
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lobster shirt posted:i recently learned about the reading wars and it's totally wild that the completely unscientific (and what sounds like utter nonsense to me anyway) that kids will acquire reading naturally if you surround them with books. like lol. phonics ftmfw like kids need instruction in letter-sound correspondence, phonemic awareness in print, etc., to be able to transition from "reading to learn to learning to read," which is a concept we discuss a lot in reading intervention.
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Apr 23, 2023 01:10
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Xaris posted:what do you think about widespread emotional dysfunction in kids, is it just a local problem? I dunno how to embed a video so e.g.: so I know this is nhd's thread I am imagining these questions are posted to teachers as a whole and I love thinking and talking about these things but y'all can just tell me to shut it and I'll listen instead of talking but yeah, it's rough as hell this year and I don't think just for us, I think the kids are having a rough as hell time too. we were ALL excited to teach/learn in person this year and not in a fake way where we have to stay in desks 6 ft apart or whatever. and I think when you go through a trauma and feel like you've recovered, only to find out all the little things that are different now because you went through that trauma, it's easy as hell to get discouraged and frustrated and burned out. so 1) yes this is real and no I don't think it's localized. idk if it's just an American schools thing (might be) but I have a feeling it's pretty universal. wherever the learning apparatus was disrupted, these little ripple effects of unpredictable difficulties and change will be felt and especially this year as generally the first fully "back to normal" year for most places. but 2) I still have hope, and here is why. out here in California we were out of school for quite a while until abruptly the governor was like "COVID IS OVER BACK TO SCHOOL" except not really because we did weird hybrid cohorts and switched being at school and at home and etc but anyway that happened in late March early April 2021 if I recall correctly. and 2021-2022 started out with serious restrictions, that were eventually eased, until late March/early April 2022 when most of those restrictions went away and we stopped losing 50%+ of our class to covid surges. and then this year the entire school year was rough as hell, like this teacher I experienced behaviors I've never before seen in the classroom, like I mentioned upthread I found myself having to teach 12-year-olds things like sharing and taking turns no joke at a kindergarten level, but then right around Spring Break - so late March/early April - the kids settled down. we went from 1-2 fights a day and structured everything to one fight a week or two-ish, fairly normal in middle school. our in school discipline system/detention etc went from overpopulated every day to a little elevated compared to historically, but a fraction of the kids who had been in there previously. so. it's all anecdotal but I'm fairly convinced the kids - and even teachers - are just not used to school. the part of the year that they have the most experience with is going the most smoothly. I don't think that's a coincidence. and if I'm right, that means next year things will settle down a lot. we'll see if I'm right. but in true teacher form I am sure I'm right lol.  also 3) oh my god pulling all the strings off all the French horns is one of the cruelest things you could do to a band director, that poor woman
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Apr 23, 2023 01:17
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Hawkperson posted:so I know this is nhd's thread I am imagining these questions are posted to teachers as a whole and I love thinking and talking about these things but y'all can just tell me to shut it and I'll listen instead of talking but i hope you're right, though it really sounds dire. though i think that bodes ill if school being remote for only a year resulted in everyone going insane and forgetting how to exist in-person. thank god i'm not a teacher
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Apr 23, 2023 01:24
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there's also (and here I go crab bucketing again) the challenge of doing things a certain way for years upon years and getting predictable results and then trying that this year with kids who are just frankly at a different developmental level and getting the opposite of what you want. so right now at my school, and I imagine many others, the newer teachers are actually getting better results than us old farts, because we're a bit stuck in our ways. we are a little less flexible in important ways. as we all recover from the trauma of the pandemic, I this will reverse itself (also hopefully, we will take the opportunity to learn and modify our teaching in response to our challenges). but like right now I'm sometimes teaching kindergarteners, sometimes teaching middle schoolers, and I can't really get a handle on when I'll be teaching what level because the kids don't know either, you know? so it's just frustration and tears for all of us lol. that's why the new teachers are getting the hang a little faster, they don't have any set expectations of what a 12 year old in our school system might do or know.
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Apr 23, 2023 01:25
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what do you think of the internet as a replacement for daycare/baby siters and parental/friends-replacement?
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Apr 23, 2023 01:26
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Xaris posted:what do you think of the internet as a replacement for daycare/baby siters and parental/friends-replacement? it's really bad. we perform instruction in a category of skills that have clear standards for success called "Social-Emotional Learning," or SEL. SEL instruction is really, really important but few teachers i've met have time/the desire to implement it effectively. For example, elementary students (and middle/high if not taught) don't have a good sense of how empathy works. if they do, that's good, but generally, they can't put themselves in someone else's shoes and then modify their behavior as a consequence. It surprises folks, but empathy is a learned set of behaviors and thought patterns that we develop over time. Sometimes, parents can model and teach their young kids empathy naturalistically, but usually, that's not the case in the districts I've worked. SEL is literally the explicit teaching of "empathetic" perspectives and behaviors, like using words to accurately describe someone's feelings based on their verbal/nonverbal behavior. we reward kids for providing support to their peers because that teaches their brains that empathy is rewarding outside of the nice benefit it already gives. But SEL requires both explicit and naturalistic instruction to take those behaviors, achieve fluency (do them well), generalize (do them in different environments), and maintain (continue being fluent after instruction ceases). You don't get that anywhere on a screen or, if you do in a kid's show, you're not seeing it modeled on other humans, so the parity between She Ra and the Princess of Power sad face and a Human Person Being Sad is far enough that you almost hope kids aren't learning in that way. e: Teachers can implement SEL by modeling and practicing these skills with their kids throughout the day regardless of whether there's a concrete SEL "block" of instruction time (that's a good thing to have as well, but not always possible). Example: When I begin group work in mathematics I should tell kids what the expectations are in in 20 seconds absolute max. "Remember the three expectations: We include every member's skills. We know that failure is part of success. We know that it's okay to be wrong." or something to that effect. I don't have the real one, but something like that works because I can prompt groups arguing and ask them, "What expectations are we not meeting in this group?" and reference the board or projector. So I'm both setting SEL expectations, modeling them in my interactions, and naturalistically teaching them how to self-manage by not stating what exactly they're doing wrong. I would also say something like, "That's very true, I appreciate you trying to be aware of how your group is doing." and ask another, "What should change to meet that expectation?" and the other kid suggests something, I praise him, we move on, etc. It works insanely well NeatHeteroDude has issued a correction as of 01:41 on Apr 23, 2023 |
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Apr 23, 2023 01:35
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Xaris posted:nah it's an education thread and yeah it was an open question to all, so it is cool. anyone is welcome to post as much (or little) as they want. thanks for the input. interesting stuff lol it's funny because I do daydream sometimes about doing something else (I have a poster in my room that says something like "maybe I'll transition to a less stressful career, like air traffic controller") but part of the allure of teaching is that you're not doing the same thing day in, day out. it can be so, so frustrating. but I like that I have to be creative in order to be effective. keeps me fresh. anyway quote:i hope you're right, though it really sounds dire. though i think that bodes ill if school being remote for only a year resulted in everyone going insane and forgetting how to exist in-person. I think if we look at it from a trauma/mental health perspective, it makes sense that a year-long trauma takes more than a year to recover from. kids are very resilient but this was a BIG thing for them that shook the very foundations of what they've been raised to expect. even a five-year-old in kindergarten has a certain understanding of the world that crumbled big time in the pandemic, not to mention the knock-on effects of whatever their parents/families may have gone through or the mental health crises they may have faced. in particular, responding to an event that made so many of the things we value - community, sports, live music, what have you - completely and utterly disappear with very little warning by throwing up their hands and going "life is meaningless, i'm gonna go destroy some band director's sanity because at least it's something I have agency in" is pretty logical, even if it sucks for us band directors.
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Apr 23, 2023 01:36
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Xaris posted:what do you think of the internet as a replacement for daycare/baby siters and parental/friends-replacement? I know I should think this is bad but the worry when I was a kid was that the youngins were being "raised by TV" and I gotta say, the TV taught me way, way, way better ways to interact with and move about in the world than my lovely loving family ever did. that said I very much needed the social environment of school to fully practice the things I was learning (and find out firsthand why my family's style sucks). kids only getting their socialization from the internet as in during the pandemic: bad, bad, bad.
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Apr 23, 2023 01:39
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at the beginning of the year i'd have us do roleplaying expectations for classroom behavior as part of a fun game that helps the kids build rapport with me and each other. Here are my in-lesson expectations from one year that the kids helped me build the first day of school: 1. We raise our hands the right way to get our voices heard. 2. We do not touch another person's property. We ask, instead. 3. When Mr. X does Y signal, we turn our voices off so his voice is heard. For 1, the "game" would look like this. I break kids into random groups (NEVER LET THEM CHOOSE THEIR PARTNERS NEVER EEVER) and have them come up with a good way to demonstrate expectation 1 and a bad way to demonstrate expectation 1. At the end of the 5-10 minute period (based on what i observe] each group comes up and does 2 roleplays with all members included. One for bad first, one for good second, Kids fuckin love this because they get to break classroom rules and act silly! I also had them write up teacher expectations during another day, and I did the same thing with my paraprofessionals or IAs or co-teacher. Then we get to make up little roleplays where we break teacher rules. That activity is hardcore SEL and classroom management focused. The kids get to show off their creativity and be silly in front of their new class while at the same time going through the motions of how to do it right in front of their peers. I'll usually give feedback on the good rule demonstration to make sure they're doing it right for their peers. boom, and behaviorism rules e: this was taught to me as a beginning teacher and it works well. the number one most important thing you can do when interacting with your kids is foster respect and a positive relationship that enables them to feel safe and supported. All the kids in that class got to see all their classmates me silly, unite around poking fun at me, and meet their new peers in a positive environment. I also got to model some of my strategies for prompting them to quiet down after letting them explode for a bit. When they made fun of me during my roleplay, I modeled how to take a joke/the appropriate response to peers laughing by joining them, responding calmly, and then politely prompting them to stop. NeatHeteroDude has issued a correction as of 01:51 on Apr 23, 2023 |
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Apr 23, 2023 01:48
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Edit: so what I'm doing actually is using ABA strategies to make my environment safe, fun, and effective my students. ABA gets a bad rap (and I'll explain later) as though using practices endorsed by research and science prevent you from being a fun, happy teacher. It's sometimes frustrating, but people will believe what they want to. e2: reply is not edit lol A big takeaway from my clinical work was that most people complaining about behaviorist instruction on principle (as in, just because it's science) have never actually seen it being performed well. Or maybe they have, but they don't know what it's supposed to look like so they assume it's not ABA NeatHeteroDude has issued a correction as of 01:57 on Apr 23, 2023 |
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Apr 23, 2023 01:54
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This is a very interesting thread, thanks!
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Apr 23, 2023 01:58
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awwww that’s so cute  edit: the learning the rules skit/game I mean. I may borrow that and make it appealing to 12 year olds on partner choosing (or lack thereof). would you say that is a universal thing or an elem thing? I ask because I read a paper on collaborative composing that suggested that kids who work with a chosen partner/friend tend to get way better quality of work than kids who are paired with a kid they don’t know as well. one of those things that threw me. the study iirc was with 4th graders
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Apr 23, 2023 02:02
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Adenoid Dan posted:This is a very interesting thread, thanks! Thank you! We have lots of good brains in here. Another quick note on ABA in teaching One of the super most basic principles in ABA is that punishment does not effectively modify behavior. It can work, but unless paired with a rigorous system of reinforcing other behavior, you're not making long-term changes. Like, none of my colleagues in any district who worked through that lens would scream or yell or humiliate their kids a lot because it's hosed up. But we can prove it's hosed up by looking at research on the efficacy of punishment as a means to change behavior or teach new skills. The basic idea is that you want to do everything in your power and knowledge, and resources to implement positive behavior supports and instruction that support kids with behavior struggles. You also MUST NOT reinforce the problem behavior by flipping out in some way when it happens. Any punishment or discipline I do is very intentional. I've been pissed before at kids and taken away too many of their tokens (earn with good behavior and buy stuff at store) or whatever as a result. Still, when that happens, I always go back around in private and apologize to them, undo the unfair part of the punishment, do some kind of recovery thing that lets them know I'm not mad, and, if they want, I can apologize to them in front of the class. When I write disciplinary guidelines at the beginning of the year, I also let the kids collaborate with each other to come up with punishments that fit their expectations as natural and fair in response to bad things they might do. For example, one really good group came up with the disciplinary rule that: "Kids must ask the person they've hurt what they can do to help." I even had a little cue card with the sentences pre-written until half-way through the year when I knew they understood it. Then I took the card away and the kids kept using that appropriate language to support their peers after an escalation Here's sort of what I remember from one year. We put it on a big, visible poster I could point to and all the kids "signed" a little thing saying they will respect the rules their peers created. Mr. X Classroom Discipline Rules 1. Every student gets 2 warnings to stop doing something unless it's very bad or unsafe. 2. After 2 warnings, Mr. X will tell you to stop, and you will lose any privilege being used for X minutes. 3. If students keep struggling throughout the day, Mr. X will ask us to talk to him at his desk about how he can help. (I use this to reinforce self management and communication while giving them the chance to express what/s going on and how I can help!) 4. If you don't want to talk now, Mr. X will check in later. 5. If it keeps happening, Mr. X can take away 1-4 (X tokens). Those tokens are gone forever. 6. Mr. X wants to help, so talking about issues will always be rewarded with tokens. et.c etc. It's more kid language friendly then but basically that's the extend. I have an emergency discipline thing for violence and unsafe behavior that I wrote up seperately NeatHeteroDude has issued a correction as of 02:18 on Apr 23, 2023 |
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Apr 23, 2023 02:09
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Ultimately, if a teacher constantly has to yell and humiliate and punish their students (even one or two), the students are not the problem, the teacher is the problem. A big line I heard from my mentor was: "We get paid to make their lives better. They do not." If you punish the same kids for the same reasons all the time, you should be able to see that the punishment is ACTUALLY modifying their behavior. it's a huge red flag when collaborate with teachers and see them constantly going off on one kid. most of the time punishment isn't done even in the way that might make it effective. it's almost universally making the problem worse lol NeatHeteroDude has issued a correction as of 02:22 on Apr 23, 2023 |
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Apr 23, 2023 02:19
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NeatHeteroDude posted:2. Even with significant support from the PBL org, evidence across these intervention skills strongly suggests PBL decreased student achievement in literacy overall, but this was especially bad in "free lunch (poor)" schools. This is particularly problematic. Title 1 schools are everywhere and where I typically work. Our kids are incredibly poor, in unstable housing, victims of violence and abuse, etc. This is not a "teacher skill" issue, it's a programmatic onc, and has a direct negative impact on equity in education, which bothers me! here’s the problem these equity differences are driven by social and economic differences. of course they aren’t finding a difference (edit) when they switch curriculum The other thing , how do I say this: look at phonics. love of learning type stuff for reading is out and out hard in the US many papers, documentaries, parents demanding phonics, etc. now look at the UK it’s basically the opposite phonics is out with the similar certainty. you are very certain. give it thirty years to have seen the evidence based consensus change a couple of times. I think what’s going on is that that they are trying to use education to fix what are economic problems. of course that doesn’t work. the real answer to equity questions is care and cash. direct payments to poor folks with kids with structured support. but we’ll never do that in the US.
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Apr 23, 2023 02:21
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Bar Ran Dun posted:
and then critics blame teachers for factors caused by economic problems this year my kids teaching is using some clip up/down behavioral system and it’s been working well it seems. my kid is acting better in 1st than K.
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Apr 23, 2023 02:29
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Bar Ran Dun posted:here’s the problem these equity differences are driven by social and economic differences. I agree a lot with the last part, but it's still a red flag for me. If a program doesn't work for kids in poverty, it's not an equitable program because poverty is not equitable. If REAL PBL doesn't work with poor people in marginalized groups, single-parent households, food and housing instability households, etc., then it sounds a lot like a program that we shouldn't use. There's plenty of research on Direct Instruction that shows it works everywhere, with a lot of attention paid to researching how it can support children in poverty. I guess I'm not sold on PBL if it doesn't work for a population that we know empirically we could help otherwise. Also, I kind of reject the idea that instructional practices cannot make up skill deficits for children in poverty. They totally can, and it's matter of implementing them well and teachers working very hard to build rapport with family units while being empathetic to their unique concerns. PBL is a newer term for something that's already been researched since the 1960s. If there hasn't been a change in the research consensus for over 50 years, and new research suggests that PBL has no effect on learning outcomes, I would be unethical to use it in my classrooms.
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Apr 23, 2023 02:32
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when they switch curriculum