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 The Wars of Light and Shadow is an epic high fantasy series by Janny Wurts. The books follow two talented half-brothers, Arithon and Lysaer, who are both destined for kingship. Each is blessed with mastery of a specific elemental power (you can probably guess which) that they use in concert to save the world. However, their heroics have a price: the brothers are inflicted with a curse that forces them into irrational conflict with one another. This geas-bound enmity sets the ball rolling on the titular wars. It has everything you'd want from a big, fat, fantasy epic: political scheming, swords fighting, incredibly powerful sorcery, magical swords, armies waging war, morally complex wizards, centuries-old petty grudges, drunken prophets, and at least three nearly extinct fantastical races. It's a big series. Check out this 4200px tall image for proof:  There's ten completed novels, six novellas / short stories, and a final 11th novel that's releasing (probably?) in the next year. It's not often that an epic decades in the making actually gets finished, so with the end is in sight there's been a lot of new and renewed interest in the series. The books are long and the prose dense (though very well written), so if you want to read or reread the series in time for the final book you should probably get started now. As such, please properly mark all spoilers! I know some of the books are decades old, but I bet many people in this topic are going to be starting them for the first time. It's certainly true for me.  You may have heard of Janny Wurts in other contexts, such as the Empire trilogy which she coauthored with Raymond Feist. She is also an award-winning painter and illustrator, and was apparently victim of an art heist in the 90s. There's a $5,000 reward waiting for you if you crack the case. Cool Links
WarpDogs fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Apr 21, 2023 |
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Apr 19, 2023 23:19
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Hey cool glad to see this series has a thread. I started the first one a couple years back and fell off—thanks absurd work schedule—but while reading, I found this or something very nearly like it quite helpful. Her writing style is engrossing and beautiful, but also very dense, and I always felt like I was missing something pivotal. I don’t think that specific set of summaries is the one I found back then, but if anyone’s interested, I think it helps to get acquainted with where the series is headed, and it helps clarify some of the foggier, less tangible parts of the book’s stock and trade. And now I want to finish it.
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Apr 20, 2023 00:30
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There's nothing like this series. It's dense, the author has clearly sat and plotted out every thread, and I can't hope but pray for a good finale. I've personally read the first 4 or so books and am rereading them now... and by GOD they're dense. It's like eating cheesecake; rich and thoughtful and oh god there's how much left? Better save it for tomorrow...
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Apr 20, 2023 01:14
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StrixNebulosa posted:I've personally read the first 4 or so books and am rereading them now... and by GOD they're dense. It's like eating cheesecake; rich and thoughtful and oh god there's how much left? Better save it for tomorrow... I started reading the first book this week after seeing it recommended in the SF thread, and I agree with this. It’s dense writing, but crafted with the kind of care that makes it look effortless. I wish someone had recommended these books to me when I was younger, but then again, that would’ve made the wait for the last book even longer.
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Apr 20, 2023 03:51
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Thank you sooooo much for starting a thread!WarpDogs posted:Cool Links In addition to these, I would add: https://forum.urizone.net/ - official Janny Wurts forum on her website, which is active and has lots of in-depth discussion on the lore of Athera and her other books and sometimes if you post deep lore questions on how harmonics or the Law of Major Balance etc etc etc works Wurts will respond personally BookTuber A Critical Dragon has done a really nice analysis of Wurts' prose: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hO4Vypgt6i0 that perfectly encapsulates why her writing is so good and so dense. Now, off to go binge the remaining 50% of Destiny's Conflict...
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Apr 20, 2023 04:18
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Just finished Destiny's Conflict and wow, I'm emotionally gutted. Not only did Arithon destroy Selidie and the Great Waystone so Lirendra could seize power at long last, he ALSO absconded with Elaira's crystal and then insanely CLEANSED IT in salt water when he got shipwrecked on the SECRET HIDDEN ISLAND WHERE ALL THE LOST PARAVIANS WENT after Ciladis prepared a refuge for them and And by the way, Arithon technically died, or at least died enough that Lysaer thinks he's dead and appears to be finally free from Desh-thiere's geas which makes me wonder if Elaira knows how to revive someone when they're clinically dead why the hell didn't the F7 just go, oh yeah, let's do that to circumvent this curse from the start but I assume there's probably a good reason why that wasn't viable but I don't have the time to go digging through the first book to find out. Suddenly I desperately need to know when Song of the Mysteries will be released. Edit: also I love Arithon, no mistake, but I feel like Lysaer keeps getting the short end of the stick here and I wish he got to have more agency though at least in this book, he finally got a love interest whose natural life got extended by Davien though the age gap difference there is extreme, to say the least, even though Daliana is busy playing Mulan and looks like that's not gonna let up until the next book. Leng fucked around with this message at 13:15 on Apr 20, 2023 |
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Apr 20, 2023 11:57
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I enjoyed reading the Empire series back in the day and I keep meaning to give this series a try, so I guess I might start now. I'll see if I can start reading the first book this month.
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Apr 20, 2023 12:02
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I finished Curse of the Mistwraith a couple days ago. I wanted to type my thoughts out as soon as I'd finished, but I had to deal with something of a curse myself (the 5yo brought a stomach bug home from school) Around the 90% mark I was despairing that there was no possible way the book could end with anything but grimdark misery. That, or it'd be cliffhanger non-ending. I'm very happy to have been wrong I'm still reeling at how expansive it was, especially as the first book of a series. There were at least 4 story arcs that each could have served as the main plot of its own novel. The book was long and felt long, but somehow never bloated More spoilery thoughts Going into the series I had no idea how it'd be structured, so it was kinda funny being like "oh, she were being literal!" to both the title of the book and the series I like the curse; it's an interesting idea to drive conflict, especially when one character is painfully aware of it and the other isn't. Wurts is not exactly subtle that she is treating Arithon as the main protagonist, which is a bit of shame because I think he's kind of a dweeb and I like Lysaer's conflict a lot more. Arithon is good at literally everything he touches but just wants to be an artist, while Lysaer is a charismatic failson who hates his own inadequacies, yet is trying (or at least was) to be better. Like Arithon he was manipulated, but he lacked the abilities needed to recognize it and fight for his own autonomy, and he paid a huge price for it. He's the ultimate tragic figure. I really liked the Fellowship as this group of incredibly powerful grandpas whose goals are so huge and longterm they come across as cold and calculating, though they clearly aren't and are just trying to Make The Tough Decisions, even if it looks uncaring or even monstrous to mere mortals. I'll be interested to see how the Koriathain contrast with them throughout Hard to guess how book two will go. Arithon becomes a travelling bard, I suppose, while Lysaer continues building armies. Will Lysaer mosey on over to Tysar and claim his birthright in the name of murking Arithon? Will Arithon play a song so beautiful everyone in the world simultaneously weeps? Will Sethvir ever clean his dirty tea mugs?
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Apr 21, 2023 18:36
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WarpDogs posted:I finished Curse of the Mistwraith a couple days ago. I wanted to type my thoughts out as soon as I'd finished, but I had to deal with something of a curse myself (the 5yo brought a stomach bug home from school) WarpDogs posted:I'm still reeling at how expansive it was, especially as the first book of a series. There were at least 4 story arcs that each could have served as the main plot of its own novel. The book was long and felt long, but somehow never bloated It's a style that in the hands of a less adept author would come off as horribly overwrought and I love it. WarpDogs posted:More spoilery thoughts WarpDogs posted:Wurts is not exactly subtle that she is treating Arithon as the main protagonist, which is a bit of shame because I think he's kind of a dweeb and I like Lysaer's conflict a lot more. Arithon is good at literally everything he touches but just wants to be an artist, while Lysaer is a charismatic failson who hates his own inadequacies, yet is trying (or at least was) to be better. Like Arithon he was manipulated, but he lacked the abilities needed to recognize it and fight for his own autonomy, and he paid a huge price for it. He's the ultimate tragic figure. WarpDogs posted:I'll be interested to see how the Koriathain contrast with them throughout WarpDogs posted:Hard to guess how book two will go. Arithon becomes a travelling bard, I suppose, while Lysaer continues building armies. Will Lysaer mosey on over to Tysar and claim his birthright in the name of murking Arithon? Will Arithon play a song so beautiful everyone in the world simultaneously weeps? Will Sethvir ever clean his dirty tea mugs?  Yes, in the way you're thinking but also no.
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Apr 21, 2023 23:43
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It's weird, because going into the book from a first impression (and boy does Wurts play around with these a lot e.g. Arithon) Lysaer should be the main character. He's blond, handsome, a prince, trained in the sword, fated for Important Destinies, etc etc etc. He fits all the standards for the classic fantasy novel hero, even down to the way where he has a fiance... but never mentions her name. I can't be sure, but I have a theory that him never mentioning her name, even in his inner thoughts, is commentary from Wurts on how disposable women can be in the older model of fantasy pulp novels. Instead the central character is Arithon, who is so very much the teenage heartthrob type for teenage girls - angsty musician with dark hair and dark powers and man, he's everything BUT a vampire. I don't think he's nearly as compelling as Wurts seems to think he is, but I also respect how appealing that tortured angst can be, with the misunderstandings and hidden empathy and my god, the suffering he goes through as the series goes on. It's incredible. Lysaer is easily one of my favorite characters and honestly one of the great tragedies of the series, from both an in and out of universe perspective.
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Apr 21, 2023 23:54
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https://twitter.com/JannyWurts/status/1649418958414532614?t=03jvnuSikToF7uCF_KkQDA&s=19 And in the replies she says that while she can't announce the publication date yet, it's on the map! 
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Apr 22, 2023 01:09
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StrixNebulosa posted:He fits all the standards for the classic fantasy novel hero, even down to the way where he has a fiance... but never mentions her name. I can't be sure, but I have a theory that him never mentioning her name, even in his inner thoughts, is commentary from Wurts on how disposable women can be in the older model of fantasy pulp novels. lmao I had the exact same thoughts. It has to be deliberate. It's not like she's shy about giving names to side characters, and Lysaer's betrothed is referenced at least 4 or 5 times. She doesn't get so much as a last name despite being a noble's daughter. Also feels like she's trying to say something about women in fantasy with the Koriathain, though I'm not quite sure what the message will end up being. They're being painted as the bad, spying, in-fighting, shrewish, shortsighted all-female mages vs. the good, powerful, self-sacrificing, wise all-male mages. But I'm sure there's going to be more than that, especially with the glimpses of Morriel we get in the latter chapters
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Apr 22, 2023 02:30
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WarpDogs posted:Also feels like she's trying to say something about women in fantasy with the Koriathain, though I'm not quite sure what the message will end up being. They're being painted as the bad, spying, in-fighting, shrewish, shortsighted all-female mages vs. the good, powerful, self-sacrificing, wise all-male mages. But I'm sure there's going to be more than that, especially with the glimpses of Morriel we get in the latter chapters There is one specific nitpick in the prose of WOLAS (that I don't recall being as prominent in her other works—definitely not in the co-written Empire Trilogy—though it's been a while since I've read Cycle of Fire, Master of Whitestorm, and To Ride Hell's Chasm) that irks me quite a bit because it harks back to some pretty rigid and binary gender archetypes that exist on Athera. Examples from Curse of the Mistwraith since that's what most people in this thread are (re)reading:
Re: thesis about women in fantasy, don't read the spoilered para re: the Koriathain and other female characters below until you're through more books (at least to the end of Warhost of Vastmark): The one thing I'm not a huge fan of with the treatment of the Koriathain is that they are pretty much what they're depicted to be from the get-go. Morriel and Lirenda embody the Order's beliefs; Elaira is shown as the exception. There are no other sisters of significance, including Selidie. Most of the other, named, remarkable women in the series (Talith, Ellaine, Dariana, etc) are depicted as just that—remarkable. It's not that women can't hold power—we get plenty of High Queens and female caithdeins and explicit patriarchy doesn't seem to have a clear stronghold anywhere other than the towns. But I feel like these books don't really contain a grand statement as such about gender roles/expectations/norms. It's more an epic fantasy series about redemption: remarkable and terrible people—men AND women—living in a fallen world do remarkable and terrible things against remarkable and terrible odds for generations upon generations in hopes of preserving the greater mysteries and maybe someday restoring those greater mysteries so that humankind can ascend to higher state of conscious existence and exist in harmony with the living wonders of Creation. Around the middle of Book 2, you will get the universe's mythology via Fellowship intervention in events which makes explicit their purpose. That purpose is directly bound to Paravian survival, as literal beings of the ultimate good created by Ath the Creator. In the same book, you'll discover the Koriathain Order's founding purpose and regardless of whether or not Morriel Prime has led the Order astray from that purpose, it is fundamentally opposed to the Fellowship's purpose as far as the characters who have the power to affect that interpret it. I'm really, really, really hoping that Book 11 will have Lirenda discover redemption and reforge the broken Order into something that isn't so twisted.
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Apr 22, 2023 04:07
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I started getting into Curse of the Mistwraith, but looking forward it looks like this series is going to get into the one thing I can't put up with, which is discussions about free will.
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Apr 26, 2023 18:27
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Rand Brittain posted:I started getting into Curse of the Mistwraith, but looking forward it looks like this series is going to get into the one thing I can't put up with, which is discussions about free will. It doesn't harp on it TOO much overall, but in the first book - yeah, the wizards are straight up working to get a prophecy right, and at one point you can see them receive another one. They're trying to set things in motion just so in order to get the Paravians back, and well, you'll see the fallout. I like how there are two kinds of prophecy, so to speak - the wizards have a kind of computer-assisted analysis of the future to see where things will go, and then there's the regular magical ones from Dakar. Anyways I had a question that I don't know if it gets addressed in the books at all: why were humans so terrified/angry of the Paravians that they'd go to such lengths as to dam a major river just to gently caress with some unicorns?
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Apr 26, 2023 21:11
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The Snores of Light and Shadow! Zzzzzzz (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 28, 2023 13:26
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keep seeing ppl mention the prose, its density, etc, any especially effective/memorable/representative passages to share?
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Apr 28, 2023 14:57
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buffalo all day posted:keep seeing ppl mention the prose, its density, etc, any especially effective/memorable/representative passages to share? I just finished reading this section and think it's pretty cool. Desh-thiere is the titular Mistwraith. Arithon is our hero. Asandir is a fuckin' old wizard, part of the Fellowship. Dakar is his drunk apprentice who doesn't want the job. quote:"You look steadier. Can you tell me what happened?" Any errors in transcription are mine. I think this passage showcases - she loves to get weird and verbose about magic, and she LOVES to wax poetic, and I think that's cool.
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May 2, 2023 16:24
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Wow, I'd remembered that we're not supposed to like Etarra, but I'd forgotten how much Wurts grinds it in that this city is rich, full of assholes, and just awful all around.
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May 3, 2023 15:51
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I kind of wish you'd posted that excerpt before I got four hundred pages into Curse of the Mistwraith and tossed it aside in disgust, because it illuminates everything I disliked about the book. I'm phone posting so it's not going to be a full on review, but I disagree that Wurts' writing is in any way poetic or evocative or that the subject matter is interesting. Let's start with the latter. Wurts has an incredible tendency to spew nonsense about magic with the enthusiasm of Geordi LaForge talking about starship engines. It suffers from most of the same problems of introducing your own rules so you can come up with a "clever" solution by pretending to be an engineer. Or, in deference to the way Wurtz writes, "clever-minded problem-solutions". Taking a look at the passage it's about two wizards discussing how the evil supernatural entity can use technobabble to tech-tech past their force fields. It doesn't even reinforce something like the optimistic ideas of Star Trek being able to use science to get out of a jam, all it reinforces is that the guy literally bred to be a wizard by Eugenics Mom is better than you. It's not even particularly mystical, the passage describes Asandir the wizard as being so good at magic that he discovers particle physics. This verges on self-parody. This brings us to the prose, and bluntly it's not very good. I commend Wurts for trying to avoid Sanderson or Jordan's eminently skimmable prose, but this is overwrought and full of tortured metaphors. Asandir's gaze is "sun-flecked crystal", which is also "lucent". Are his eyes glowing or are they reflecting in patches? Then we get the passage that the gaze is "beneath the jut of his frown" and I get confused again. Are his eyes somehow below his mouth? Probably not. Is he looking down? He "stared aside into the fire." gently caress if I know! Then we get into the meat of the matter which is that Wurts doesn't have the style to pull off the particle physics scene. Let me explain. This is all realist prose despite the content being about wizards. Wurts doesn't actually reach for any kind of figurative or emotional language, preferring to sprinkle in a few hyphenated-adjectives to overly-describe something. Thus when we get to the description of how great it is that Arithon can see atoms it completely fails because Wurts just can't effectively convey how miraculous it is. She certainly tells via the blind man metaphor, but the actual wonders themselves are a dull list of random crap, so when Arithon starts weeping over how awesome it all is I find myself cold because it's dull. Now, describing something beautiful in a way to make a reader weep is hard, but when you make it part of the recurting plotline about how Arithon doesn't want to be king because he'd rather look at unicorns you need to sell it to the reader. This prose cannot do that.
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May 3, 2023 18:59
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TheGreatEvilKing posted:I kind of wish you'd posted that excerpt before I got four hundred pages into Curse of the Mistwraith and tossed it aside in disgust, because it illuminates everything I disliked about the book. I'm phone posting so it's not going to be a full on review, but I disagree that Wurts' writing is in any way poetic or evocative or that the subject matter is interesting. Let's start with the latter. I feel as if you and I are reading different books, which is fascinating to me. You're trying to take the descriptions literally, when to me they speak of - "lucent as sun-flecked crystal beneath the jut of his frown" - this tells me he's still wizardly, still glowing with all that wizard energy as he's frowning. He's not happy but he's not humble so much that it changes his mien. "stared aside into the fire" - looked away from any speakers and into the fire. Arithon, in this case. I'm... honestly fascinated again at how you're describing this, as the wonder of that magic scene - Arithon looking through the eyes of a thousand+ year old wizard and seeing the world anew, that made me sit up and want to go out and look at puddles and grass and poo poo. It doesn't need more decoration to make it beautiful. And finally "doesn't want to be king because he'd rather look at unicorn" please read the book. Arithon doesn't want to be king because the last time he tried, it ended with his nation starving, his dad dead, multiple ships and sailors sunk, and himself in chains. He chose a life of wizardry and playing music to step up and take the crown, and it ended in the worst possible failure for himself and his people. Here, again, he's being given another crown - and he doesn't want it! He desperately wants to focus on his true calling: music and never ever deal with the angst that goes into being a king. Which is both... it's poignant. I can see where he's coming from. I can also see where it's hugely irresponsible of him. And Asandir is literally showing him unicorns to bait a trap that will convince Arithon to take up the mantle, later... with ruinous consequences.
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May 3, 2023 20:09
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StrixNebulosa posted:stuff I thought it was less "wizard energy" than "reflected firelight" personally, which is why I found "lucent" so odd. Now, I will be the first person to admit I did not read the book closely, but I do not remember Arithon mentioning anyone by name who was on the lost fleet of pirate ships, aside from maybe his father. He literally spends more time weeping over holographic unicorns then all the sailors who died under his command. I get the book states that as his reason for avoiding kingship, but the book also made it clear he'd prefer to be a traveling violinist and got emotionally blackmailed by friggin unicorns. Wurts posted:Asandir did not see stone but the crystalline lattices that matrixed its substance, and beyond that to the delicate, ribbon-like glimmers that were the underpinnings of all being, that stabilized vibration into matter. More, as a man might know his most treasured possessions, the Sorcerer recognized everything he scried, not according to type but in Name, that unique understanding of every object's individuality. He held the signature of each plant, from the seed that had thrown up its first sprout, to the days of sunlight and storms that marked its growth, to the twigs and every turned leaf ever shed by the grown tree. This is literally a relational database view of the world with the Name as primary key and the signature as a transactional history. It is literally the dullest way I can think of to express the mystery and power of magic.
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May 4, 2023 01:01
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TheGreatEvilKing posted:Asandir's gaze is "sun-flecked crystal", which is also "lucent". Are his eyes glowing or are they reflecting in patches? Then we get the passage that the gaze is "beneath the jut of his frown" and I get confused again. Are his eyes somehow below his mouth? Probably not. Is he looking down? He "stared aside into the fire." gently caress if I know! I mean, you can like what you like, but this doesn't seem like a very difficult set of metaphors to get. The "jut of his frown" is obviously the bunching up of forehead skin that happens as an integral part of a frown. Sun-flecked crystal is lucently reflecting sunlight, but anyway that part is metaphorical. His eyes aren't literally glowing, he's just looking in a very steady and piercing way. It's a great way of conveying the facial expressions of a 1,000-year-old dude who can see the underlying substructure of all reality. TheGreatEvilKing posted:This is literally a relational database view of the world with the Name as primary key and the signature as a transactional history. It is literally the dullest way I can think of to express the mystery and power of magic. This is possibly the saddest, most reductionist way of reading that passage. I'm genuinely sorry for you.
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May 4, 2023 01:40
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TheGreatEvilKing posted:This is literally a relational database view of the world with the Name as primary key and the signature as a transactional history. It is literally the dullest way I can think of to express the mystery and power of magic. Taking being able to look at a plant and not just see the plant but actually understand it across its entire life and care for it in the same way you’d care for a pet or even a person and casting it as ‘a database lookup’ seems like nearly willful misinterpretation. The beauty and mystery isn’t “oh hey he can see its transaction history”, it’s in the comprehension of the thing’s place in the life cycle of the world and its essence. It’s fundamentally a religious/animist understanding of the world. It’s also not exactly like that view of magic is derived from a computer analogy - the notion of a true name, signature, whatever you want to call it, that gives you understanding and power over other things (note that the Fellowship have that power, but don’t use it without consent from the namee) has a long history in magic, both fictional and, uh, real world (ie also fictional but people believed it). Like, Egyptian mythology, kabbala, the Odyssey, Rumpelstiltskin, all involve that basic idea, that a name gives you power over the named. It also shows up everywhere in SFF from the Black Company books to Earthsea.
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May 4, 2023 01:54
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TheGreatEvilKing posted:I thought it was less "wizard energy" than "reflected firelight" personally, which is why I found "lucent" so odd. Now, I will be the first person to admit I did not read the book closely, but I do not remember Arithon mentioning anyone by name who was on the lost fleet of pirate ships, aside from maybe his father. He literally spends more time weeping over holographic unicorns then all the sailors who died under his command. I get the book states that as his reason for avoiding kingship, but the book also made it clear he'd prefer to be a traveling violinist and got emotionally blackmailed by friggin unicorns. The Paravians are less unicorns/centaurs/elves what have you and more - almost religious, spiritual creatures. It's a far more Lord of the Rings-esque religious view of the world and the mysteries within it. Seeing a unicorn here isn't seeing a horse with a horn, it's seeing a fundamentally good thing, akin to proof that god is real or something equally profound. And seeing that they're gone? Heartbreaking. Being led to find out that if he rejects the crown, he dooms the mysteries and prevents this world from knowing that true wonder ever again? It's the cruelest thing Asandir could have done to him. I also sincerely doubt that Arithon has grieved less over his father / his nation when compared to the Paravians, too - like, he hasn't spent time weeping over it because he's been busy being, y'know, captured, drugged into an insane coma, imprisoned, beaten, exiled, literally forced to torture his half-brother into surviving a desert, surviving himself, escaping evil shadow magic, recovering again, being dragged non-stop into Fellowship business, getting his memories literally blocked of the whole failed kingdom thing because Asandir is an idiot, etc etc etc. At no point in this entire chain of events have any of them been given time to breathe and reflect and grieve and that's part of the tragedy that builds up to the ultimate culmination of the book. If the Fellowship could have slowed the schedule down even a little, let them choose their own path a bit... instead it's grief upon grief thrust on them, especially on Arithon. Kalman posted:Taking being able to look at a plant and not just see the plant but actually understand it across its entire life and care for it in the same way you’d care for a pet or even a person and casting it as ‘a database lookup’ seems like nearly willful misinterpretation. The beauty and mystery isn’t “oh hey he can see its transaction history”, it’s in the comprehension of the thing’s place in the life cycle of the world and its essence. It’s fundamentally a religious/animist understanding of the world. I genuinely love true name stuff in magic, and this book series has one of my favorite takes on it - due to the compact, the Fellowship don't work magic upon other creatures without consent, which means that Dakar, at one point, has to fuckin' go around asking sheep for permission to cast stealth/illusion spells on 'em. 
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May 4, 2023 02:08
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TheGreatEvilKing posted:This is literally a relational database view of the world with the Name as primary key and the signature as a transactional history. It is literally the dullest way I can think of to express the mystery and power of magic. Also reflecting on this statement - I absolutely, deeply disagree with it. So I need to ask: what book series does the best magic? What would you point to as a good example, by your view?
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May 4, 2023 02:12
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StrixNebulosa posted:The Paravians are less unicorns/centaurs/elves what have you and more - almost religious, spiritual creatures. It's a far more Lord of the Rings-esque religious view of the world and the mysteries within it. Seeing a unicorn here isn't seeing a horse with a horn, it's seeing a fundamentally good thing, akin to proof that god is real or something equally profound. Given some of the text about the relationship between Ath and the Paravians, I’m not sure you even need the word almost in front of religious. It basically is proof that God is real and cares for the world, which yeah, that could definitely break people.
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May 4, 2023 02:37
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yeah not to pile on but comparing that to a database relationship is really depressing. The whole idea of "names" and being able to tie them to a nature or history has been a common thread in human myth and story for many millennia. If you're seeing it reflected in computer science that's because humans created computer science and we infused it with our own understanding of language, syntax, patterns, organization, etc. But more specific to that, the Fellowship has a sort of an "academia" bent, where magic is a tool for research and purpose and protection, so it makes sense than magic from their context has a dryer and more pragmatic bent to it. Contrast that to the brothers where their magic is elemental and relies more on instinct and the attributes of their element. Then there's the Koriathain who are somewhat like the Fellowship but whose powers are much more focused on the mind, things you'd associate with telepathy and farsight and mind reading. and then there's the Parthians whose entire thing is that they are beautiful and mysterious and are so magical they end up leaving an impression on the earth itself ah, Wurts is just too drat cool! And the best part about all of this is that she changes up how she writes magic depending on both who the subject is and also who is witnessing it, which was especially evident to me in the final battle scenes of the 1st book. The way the proses changes when the geas is in control, seeing Arithon's powers from the eyes of his allies vs. Lysaer's group, etc. It's great worldbuilding
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May 4, 2023 02:38
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Kalman posted:Taking being able to look at a plant and not just see the plant but actually understand it across its entire life and care for it in the same way you’d care for a pet or even a person and casting it as ‘a database lookup’ seems like nearly willful misinterpretation. The beauty and mystery isn’t “oh hey he can see its transaction history”, it’s in the comprehension of the thing’s place in the life cycle of the world and its essence. It’s fundamentally a religious/animist understanding of the world. This is my point. The language used to describe a mystical oneness with the world is the same language a software engineer would use to describe searching credit card numbers. I can't say this is the dullest I've ever read, because Jenn Lyons exists. StrixNebulosa posted:The Paravians are less unicorns/centaurs/elves what have you and more - almost religious, spiritual creatures. It's a far more Lord of the Rings-esque religious view of the world and the mysteries within it. Seeing a unicorn here isn't seeing a horse with a horn, it's seeing a fundamentally good thing, akin to proof that god is real or something equally profound. And seeing that they're gone? Heartbreaking. Being led to find out that if he rejects the crown, he dooms the mysteries and prevents this world from knowing that true wonder ever again? It's the cruelest thing Asandir could have done to him. I will still maintain that none of the language around the Paravians actually sets this up because the visions of the Paravians are so fundamentally dull. Wurts posted:Arithon opened his eyes to the visions of unicorns dancing. I just don't find this very awe-inspiring, because it's a religious experience transcribed through realist prose. I know that Wurts is trying to go for this being the equivalent of witnessing the Second Coming or whatever through the next paragraph containing "Assaulted by a rapture beyond hope", but none of this language evokes the divine. The unicorns are compared to profane items - spun silk, a sweet song, the flight of hooves - and the only supernatural descriptor is horns that "shimmered with an energy visible to mages". At that point we are squarely in the language of role-playing games - the shimmering energy the unicorns give off allows you to target them with a see invisibility spell. None of the other descriptors, save the song, couldn't just be applied to a really pretty yet one hundred percent natural horse. Now, before people get cute and pull out the Bible, I may as well point something out. Isaiah posted:In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke. Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts. Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar: And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged. Actual myth is very light on the adjective injection favored by fantasy writers like Wurts. If Janny Wurts had written this we'd end up with swift-winged angels handing out fire-red coal from steel-bright tongs on a holy-white altar. I'd really love it if someone could link the bardic traditions this is supposedly emulating. Is it Homer? Homer describes a witch posted:In the wild wood they found an open glade, I can't believe we didn't get treated to twenty pages of Circe's magic system. What a hack! The point I am trying to make is that Wurts' style is overwrought and when you strip away the hypen-adjectives you're left with RPG magic and fantasy cliches. It's not economical enough to be mythical, it's not poetic, and the prose never reaches beyond a dull realism speckled with a few metaphors that would impress Patrick Rothfuss' pizza man.
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May 4, 2023 03:45
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I am literally lying in bed about to go to sleep so I can’t really get into it, but I wanted to say that while I continue to completely disagree with you, I do respect that you’re bringing quotes and illustrating your points and so on. That’s cool.
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May 4, 2023 04:03
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Honestly, there's nothing wrong with the prose? Why are people in this subforum so weird about "prose"? Instead, I feel weird because my reaction to this passage is "wow, Asandir is terrible; he should die; I hope Arithon kills him". Everything about it says to me "this ancient wizard loves everything in a completely impersonal way and as a result he will do awful, awful things"... although admittedly I've got some extradiegetic knowledge that points me in that direction.
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May 4, 2023 08:34
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Coming back in to say thanks to Strix for posting the passage in response to my q, was interesting to read through. I don’t think it’s weird at all to care about quality of prose in the written word forum so it’s helpful to look at examples. Especially where the author is doing something different from Sanderson-style replacement level extruded fantasy product (RLEFP), which I always appreciate even if it’s not for me. I see GreatEvilKing’s point about the prose. This particular passage is especially tough because honestly when I think of “names as power” in modern fantasy I immediately think LeGuin / Earthsea and it’s hard to compete. For example, this passage in which the main character is also having a transcendental experience while perceiving the true nature of things : “In that moment Ged understood the singing of the bird, and the language of the water falling in the base of the fountain, and the shape of the clouds, and the beginning and the end of the wind that stirred the leaves; it seemed to him that he himself was a word spoken by the sunlight.” There is no unnecessary word here and the words are simple. But imo it’s far more powerful. Not everyone needs to write the same of course, but I do think there’s a tendency to perceive more as better and, as GEK points out, the opposite is often true (see also: Rothfuss). All that said I’m interested to check out the first book of WoLaS, to experience it for myself. So thanks.
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May 4, 2023 15:18
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buffalo all day posted:Coming back in to say thanks to Strix for posting the passage in response to my q, was interesting to read through. I don’t think it’s weird at all to care about quality of prose in the written word forum so it’s helpful to look at examples. Especially where the author is doing something different from Sanderson-style replacement level extruded fantasy product (RLEFP), which I always appreciate even if it’s not for me.  Let us know what you think, good or bad. I think - even as a negative comparison - if I were Janny Wurts I'd be honored as hell to be compared to Ursula K LeGuin.
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May 4, 2023 15:24
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https://twitter.com/JannyWurts/status/1654503580143955970?t=KTrKfq9fRqnPCzUV-s0gOg&s=19 Please be 2024...
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May 5, 2023 23:32
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I'm descending into Coronation Day and I am unbelievably tense. I know I'll read a lot faster and enjoy myself more once I'm through, but maaaan creeping up on it with all the same dread Arithon has.
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May 6, 2023 20:22
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British current events thread is thataway 
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May 6, 2023 22:41
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Rand Brittain posted:Honestly, there's nothing wrong with the prose? Why are people in this subforum so weird about "prose"? I think the issue is that reading to find out "what happens" is self-defeating because everything in the book is made up; in order to have any shot at real beauty, transcendence, or meaning, it has to reach beyond itself to say something about the reality that produced it. (To use a very earthy example, Alan Moore has said he considers Killing Joke to be one of his weakest works because its message is: Batman and the Joker are really a lot alike. Unfortunately, Batman and the Joker aren't real so this is kind of a meaningless lesson.) Art is making some kind of comment on the world, although the argument is less logical, as in history or philosophy, than aesthetic/emotional. I'm not in full agreement with Cormac McCarthy's worldview, but he makes an astonishing case, for example in this passage which has some thematic similarities to some of the Wurt passages quoted: quote:The flames sawed in the wind and the embers paled and deepened and paled and deepened like the bloodbeat of some living thing eviscerate upon the ground before them and they watched the fire which does contain within it something of men themselves inasmuch as they are less without it and are divided from their origins and are exiles. For each fire is all fires, and the first fire and the last ever to be.
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May 6, 2023 22:46
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porfiria: huh?
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May 7, 2023 00:20
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quote:You write that escapist stuff? Why should I bother to read it? https://www.paravia.com/JannyWurts/about/faq-books.php quote:The seed idea for the Wars of Light and Shadow series occurred, when, in the course of researching tactics and weapons, she viewed a documentary film on the Battle of Culloden Moor. This was the first time she had encountered that historical context of that brutal event, with the embroidery of romance stripped from it. The experience gave rise to an awakening, which became anger, that so often, our education, literature and entertainment slant history in a manner that equates winners and losers with moral right and wrong, and the prevalent attitude, that killing wars can be seen as justifiable solutions when only one side of the picture is presented. https://www.paravia.com/JannyWurts/about/bio.php
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May 7, 2023 00:24
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| # ? May 7, 2024 11:22 |
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Janny Wurts posted:
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May 7, 2023 00:56
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