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I've always disliked when other people do this but now I guess it's my turn. Is there an existing list of highlights/best episodes for Voyager and Enterprise? I've been slowly going through TNG and DS9 with some friends who haven't seen Trek yet. It's been great but after a few years we're done with the best Trek Series; DS9. They really want to keep going, but the idea of watching a combined eleven seasons of Voyager and Enterprise makes me want to scoop my eyeballs out with a spoon. Part of me wants to skip ahead to Lower Decks, but since that is basically Trek References: The Show I can understand them wanting to at least have some familiarity with the others first.
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Apr 25, 2024 18:32
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Just go with em and see if they vibe, lots and lots of star trek fans really like those two shows.
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Apr 25, 2024 18:52
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Yeah Voyager is consistently the most popular show with normal people. If they aren't enjoying it, skip ahead to season four. The show gets significantly better at that point, 4/5 are solid seasons.
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Apr 25, 2024 18:59
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I'm also of the strong opinion that one must take the gestalt view to fully appreciate Trek and that means no skipped episodes. Except 11:59.
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Apr 25, 2024 19:03
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zoux posted:I'm also of the strong opinion that one must take the gestalt view to fully appreciate Trek and that means no skipped episodes. Except 11:59. You can’t skip 11:59! You’ll regret this! The real episode you should skip is The Outcast, because it’s absolutely unforgivable today.
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Apr 25, 2024 19:05
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Also watch, if nothing else from ENT, watch the S4 from second episode to second to last. They are way better than the average ENT was, few episodes from seasons 1-3 not included. If you want more variety, watch the pilot, episodes S2E2 Carbon Creek and S2E4 Dead Stop, maybe S2E23 Regeneration (if you watched the First contact movie, otherwise it does not make sense), S3E8 Twilight, S3E9 North Star, S3E21 E^21, and S4E3 thorugh S4E21. Also if you want to watch an actor starting a career nosedive and understand why Mayweather didn't get that many lines later, watch S2E20 Horizon.
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Apr 25, 2024 19:16
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Arivia posted:You can’t skip 11:59! You’ll regret this! How is it "unforgivable"
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Apr 25, 2024 19:22
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Ent S2E22 Cogenitor is a really Solid Episode of Star Trek that really lands the combination of "classic Star Trek premise" with "lol these people have no idea what they're doing they're the first humans to do this".
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Apr 25, 2024 19:56
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Jimbone Tallshanks posted:How is it "unforgivable"
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Apr 25, 2024 19:58
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Pinterest Mom posted:Ent S2E22 Cogenitor is a really Solid Episode of Star Trek that really lands the combination of "classic Star Trek premise" with "lol these people have no idea what they're doing they're the first humans to do this". Yes, this was one of the episodes which I also considered adding to the list. There really isn't even a silver lining "oops we did everything wrong but were accidentally right". Trip just completely fucks up because he doesn't get the idea of what diplomacy is, and keeps pushing the Earth social norms on the aliens.
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Apr 25, 2024 20:03
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Halloween Jack posted:Forget about interpreting the story as supporting conversion therapy; the actual crime is that they chickened out of casting a man. It likely wouldn't have aired. This was a time when episodes with women kissing had viewer advisories attached or got skipped by some stations.
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Apr 25, 2024 20:11
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It's also just an incredibly bleak episode that ends with a person being brainwashed and the status quo being upheld, very un-Star Trek
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Apr 25, 2024 20:18
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Der Kyhe posted:S4 from second episode to second to last. They are way better than the average ENT was, few episodes from seasons 1-3 not included. Pinterest Mom posted:Ent S2E22 Cogenitor is a really Solid Episode of Star Trek This is a good list
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Apr 25, 2024 21:04
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Trip was 100% right.
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Apr 25, 2024 21:25
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I've said it before but Voyager is comfort food Trek, its just not as good as TNG or DS9
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Apr 25, 2024 21:38
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For ENT, I'd also tack on that you should probably watch any episode with Jeffery Combs in it, because Shran is an S tier Trek guest character. (except S4e22, there is no 22nd episode of Season 4, that doesn't exist) I'm also a fan of S2e09 Singularity and S3e10 Similitude, but that's just me. Der Kyhe posted:Yes, this was one of the episodes which I also considered adding to the list. There really isn't even a silver lining "oops we did everything wrong but were accidentally right". Trip just completely fucks up because he doesn't get the idea of what diplomacy is, and keeps pushing the Earth social norms on the aliens. And Archer fucks up because he wants to play with the aliens shiny toys so bad he can't bring himself to admit their society might be kinda bad. Cogenitor's actually a pretty meaty episode in that nobody's 100% in the right.
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Apr 25, 2024 21:50
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Feldegast42 posted:I've said it before but Voyager is comfort food Trek, its just not as good as TNG or DS9 Yeah, I'd finally gotten around to watching it and there's only a handful of episodes that are outright bad, but conversely only a few that are unarguably good, too The show plays it exceedingly safe for the whole run, and while it squanders a lot of opportunity and declines to make any real big swings, it's rarely incompetent or incoherent, either
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Apr 25, 2024 21:51
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There's other stuff worth hitting in ENT's first season. Shuttlepod One comes to mind, the two Andorian episodes, the loose trilogy of "we're trying to get to Risa but keep getting distracted by sidequest bullshit" episodes, which I think also calls back to the prison break episode. In Season 2, if you're going to watch Dead Stop then you may as well do Minefield first even if it's not as good. Judgment is solid, that year's Andorian stuff was solid, otherwise it was a dull season and they were forced into a course correction for a reason. But even early ENT probably did a better job than Voyager of remembering its own history and that can be kinda fun when a lot of it is the consequences of Archer's decisions inevitably coming back to haunt him later. I haven't rewatched ENT in about a decade but at least in my head that bumbling frontiersman aspect of the series probably holds up a lot better now than I ever expected while it was actually airing.
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Apr 25, 2024 21:53
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That "trilogy" of getting to Risa is so funny to me, it's like babby's first continuity. It's pretty quaint by our modern standards but I think it would have been seen as a lot more innovative at the time. I'm maybe a bit of an Enterprise apologist, or at least I find myself drawn to it far more often than Voyager. I'm also currently rewatching Ent. I think it did a much better job of trying to engage with its premise than Voyager ever did, even if it doesn't always stick the landing. There's a pretty big theme throughout that the humans are a bit naive about the galaxy, and keep tripping over themselves when they try and apply human cultural morality to aliens, or just end up being far too trusting. But you can see how their experiences could eventually develop what we'd think of as "Federation" values.
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Apr 25, 2024 23:03
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Granted I've never given ENT a fair shake but man does it have the worst opening theme known to man
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Apr 25, 2024 23:12
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Feldegast42 posted:Granted I've never given ENT a fair shake but man does it have the worst opening theme known to man It was made even worse since the Voyager opening is probably the best in all of Star Trek.
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Apr 25, 2024 23:29
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Archers Theme (the closing credits song for Ent) is also very good, and it would have been totally fine to just play that with no other changes to the opening. I think there's a version of that on YouTube, and it's totally great. Edit: seriously this is a good opening sequence! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hsn2xVmVuGE FISHMANPET fucked around with this message at 23:37 on Apr 25, 2024 |
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Apr 25, 2024 23:35
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GATOS Y VATOS posted:It was made even worse since the Voyager opening is probably the best in all of Star Trek. Something near I never noticed until it was pointed out to me was that the ship always goes from the left side of the screen to the right.
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Apr 25, 2024 23:45
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Jimbone Tallshanks posted:Something near I never noticed until it was pointed out to me was that the ship always goes from the left side of the screen to the right. It should! That's just how you show the same thing moving through different places.
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Apr 25, 2024 23:55
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Feldegast42 posted:Granted I've never given ENT a fair shake but man does it have the worst opening theme known to man Sorry, it's a strong runner-up, but I've got to give it to Firefly. Enterprise's at least has a camp factor to it.
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Apr 26, 2024 00:09
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Fighting Trousers posted:And Archer fucks up because he wants to play with the aliens shiny toys so bad he can't bring himself to admit their society might be kinda bad. Cogenitor's actually a pretty meaty episode in that nobody's 100% in the right. Eh, I'd say "Let's give asylum to this person who's facing slavery and forced breeding" is a hell of a lot closer to being in the right than... whatever the hell Archer thinks he's doing.
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Apr 26, 2024 04:16
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Halloween Jack posted:Forget about interpreting the story as supporting conversion therapy  No Dignity posted:It's also just an incredibly bleak episode that ends with a person being brainwashed and the status quo being upheld, very un-Star Trek That's an actually fair criticism, but my response is that if everything works out perfectly all the time then there's no stakes. Sometimes the heroes have to take an L, even in TOS -- "The City On The Edge Of Forever"? Tragedy is just as valid as triumph, and often more effective in cautionary metaphors.
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Apr 26, 2024 04:31
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I’ve heard it said that it is possible to make no mistakes and still lose. And that that is not a weakness, that is life. Also, the ENT theme has givens me so much joy in its absurdity I can’t pretend like I hate it anymore.
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Apr 26, 2024 04:50
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zoux posted:Also, the ENT theme has givens me so much joy in its absurdity I can’t pretend like I hate it anymore. The fun of incorporating lyrics into any Star Trek discussion has been worth it yeah. It was a long road getting to that point though.
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Apr 26, 2024 04:54
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I've never trusted the ENT theme, and I never will I can never forgive it for the death of my show
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Apr 26, 2024 04:54
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Tighclops posted:I've never trusted the ENT theme, and I never will [angry klingon noises]
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Apr 26, 2024 05:27
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I'm still in a blind rage over Enterprise season 3 so even though there are a couple good standalone episodes mixed in, the whole thing is soured because of its association with 9/11 and America's wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. With that in mind, there's probably at least a college course worth of material to analyze in that context so it would be good "book club" fodder if that's something you viewing group does after an episode. Dr. Phlox is ruined as a character by the end of it though.
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Apr 26, 2024 05:41
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He was already ruined by episode 13...
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Apr 26, 2024 05:49
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And yet one of the highlights of the show. They seemed to lean on him a lot throughout the show. I dunno if it's just tradition that the ship's doctor be critical to solving the problem of the week or if his alien physiology just let the writers be lazy.
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Apr 26, 2024 06:03
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Halloween Jack posted:Forget about interpreting the story as supporting conversion therapy I didn't realize it was possible to have negative media literacy.
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Apr 26, 2024 07:16
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I like certain aspects of Enterprise Season 3, the main thing being that there are actual consequences in episodes where if the ship gets damaged (and it does), they can't just fix it easily. It's kind of like what the Voyager writers had planned for a season-long 'Year of Hell'. I do think a lot of the plots in Season 3 get dragged out too long, but that is mainly on the number of episodes per season they used to do back then.
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Apr 26, 2024 07:25
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As I was posting about my Enterprise watch, I kept hearing how there would be consequences, but I think we're speaking different media languages here. For Voyager, a crew stranded far from home and limping back to Earth, the ship being damaged and supplies being low and key crew members dying are appropriate and meaningful consequences. Voyager should have been the story of a struggle for survival against the odds, watching as the values of Starfleet were bent and compromised when doing the right thing would kill the crew. Enterprise in season 3 is telling a very different story. I was waiting for Phlox to be put before a medical board. I was waiting for Archer to be charged with war crimes. I was waiting for insurgents to resist the violence of the MACOs and the incursion of Starfleet. These are the material consequences that make sense in a 9/11 allegory, but it was unfortunately written by people who seemingly think the Iraq War was A Good Thing. Instead, it we get hoorah USA USA USA the whole way down. Tough men in hard times making the difficult decisions to save democracy. It made me nauseous as I was watching it, one more victim tortured by Phlox, one more crime against a sentient species committed by Archer, all in the name of Being the Good Guys. That poo poo can get the gently caress out of my Star Trek please.
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Apr 26, 2024 08:23
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counterfeitsaint posted:I didn't realize it was possible to have negative media literacy. It’s not negative media literacy. The episode isn’t condoning it, is my understanding. The problem is that it works, which is completely offensive. As a survivor of conversion therapy (government mandated in my case), the idea that conversion therapy works kills thousands of queer people a year. I’m not willing to include that in Star Trek, especially in an episode that’s supposed to be making the case for including and respecting queer people. I don’t think the episode’s writer (Jeri Taylor?) did it intentionally, but they played with a controversial topic and it’s absolutely held up horribly over time.
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Apr 26, 2024 08:58
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When I saw that episode it made me think conversion therapy was terrible because the character we came to know was, effectively, killed. I had never considered the bigger problem with presenting conversion therapy as effective at achieving its desired results, so I am grateful that you shared your perspective. Either way, I dislike that episode.
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Apr 26, 2024 15:02
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Arivia posted:It’s not negative media literacy. The episode isn’t condoning it, is my understanding. The problem is that it works, which is completely offensive. As a survivor of conversion therapy (government mandated in my case), the idea that conversion therapy works kills thousands of queer people a year. I’m not willing to include that in Star Trek, especially in an episode that’s supposed to be making the case for including and respecting queer people. That's kind of the point. Showing that conversion therapy "works" removes the argument "we shouldn't do conversion therapy because it doesn't even work" and puts the question of "should we do conversion therapy?" onto exclusively ethical grounds. Thats what sci-fi does. It reframes things by getting rid of our limitations and explores topics not in a context of what we can do, but what we should do. Heck, it's been a theme in fiction going back at least as far as Plato's ring of Gyges. Picard doesn't want to pretend to be a deity because he's afraid they'll be found out, he doesn't do it because it will mess up another culture. Data doesn't recall the ExoComps because he doesn't think they're up to the task, he does it because he thinks they're sentient. Conversion therapy isn't bad just because it fails to fix people, it's bad because there's nothing to "fix" in the first place. I'm not saying it hasn't aged poorly, or made mistakes, or it's wrong to find it offensive. I'm just saying that showing conversion therapy not working would have undercut the points they made throughout the episode.
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Apr 26, 2024 15:19
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