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Torchlighter posted:They may be expected to fill the same role, but the methods involved are very different That's why I compared them to siege tanks, because the role we're discussing is 'semi-mobile zoning tool.' It's a thing that creates a particular danger zone when rooted that makes your opponent not want to fight there/gives you an advantage if they do. A siege tank does this by providing very long range, bursty splash damage. It solves the problem by making things that come into the zone take big spikes of damage. A swarm host does this by adding additional units to the army for a short time. It solves the problem by making it so that while in the zone, there's more bodies in the zone to fight with. The thing I always noticed was that this kind of semi-mobile gameplay very much works against Zerg's typically hypermobile gameplay. Funny enough, Ravagers seem to be the big winner in terms of 'zoning tool that actually synergizes with Zerg' but I don't think we'll actually get to talk about them.
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Apr 15, 2024 21:14
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The two evolutions of the swarm host feel like they're trying to give the unit a specific role. Flying locusts do more damage and can get into the fight easily - that's great when you're hanging out behind a solid frontline. Deep tunnel hosts let you move your defensive hosts to any of your bases that need defense. Unfortunately, the zerg don't really need either of these niches filled. And there's another issue - you have to be rooted/burrowed to launch locusts, and that takes time. The co-op commanders that get swarm hosts notably don't have this restriction, you can launch locusts while unburrowed. And yeah, they need burrow and air attack to be passable. A lot of custom campaigns just give them burrow.
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Apr 15, 2024 21:29
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There's one mission in Heart where I do find creeper hosts useful, where you sometimes need to rapidly move between defending two widely separated points that you can anticipate and pre-place creep, but that's about it.
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Apr 15, 2024 21:44
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As a pure campaign player, my biggest problem with Swarm Hosts is that they never really felt like they 'fit' in the campaign army. I've got a mass of highly mobile units that can basically bounce all over the battlefield (jumping Zerglings, Kerrigan, Mutas), supported by Hydras and Aberrations...and then I've also got this slow-rear end siege unit that requiring me to slow down and wait with my horde of units for it to be useful. I don't think I ever bothered building any and tended to just use any freebies as base defense.
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Apr 15, 2024 22:45
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MagusofStars posted:As a pure campaign player, my biggest problem with Swarm Hosts is that they never really felt like they 'fit' in the campaign army. I've got a mass of highly mobile units that can basically bounce all over the battlefield (jumping Zerglings, Kerrigan, Mutas), supported by Hydras and Aberrations...and then I've also got this slow-rear end siege unit that requiring me to slow down and wait with my horde of units for it to be useful. I don't think I ever bothered building any and tended to just use any freebies as base defense. It's great that they're at least a little mobile though, unlike your base defense buildings - oh wait, those can move now too? Swarm Hosts maybe would have had more of a base defense niche in the campaign if the base defense buildings were fixed like SC1 colonies were.
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Apr 15, 2024 23:05
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gohuskies posted:It's great that they're at least a little mobile though, unlike your base defense buildings - oh wait, those can move now too? Swarm Hosts maybe would have had more of a base defense niche in the campaign if the base defense buildings were fixed like SC1 colonies were. A unit already filled that niche in SC1, it's called the Lurker and it's just the coolest thing. Enemy units approach and then there's this great sound effect, just the most satisfying sound of a bunch of buggy spikes ripping things up. The problem with the campaign design is that the game is solved and the solution is Kerrigan backed up with a giant ball of whatever you can afford. A-move the army in and micro kerrigan abilities. I don't think I ever used infestors or vipers or swarm hosts at all, because it's just dividing my attention away from Kerrigan, the unit that matters. In the Leviathan Crew mod I was playing a few weeks ago I actually used swarmhosts and infestors a couple times to set up kill-zones. Lure enemy defenders out of base into the killzone, fungal growth them while in swarmhost range, THEN a-move the giant ball in. The level designers really should have considered how these units play with the terrain and set up some maps where you could get an advantage if you had certain units available. Also maybe not necessarily having your uberhero on the field in every single map.
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Apr 15, 2024 23:59
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Is this finally the endgame? Looks like we'll end it at 120 Essence.Lt. Danger posted:lmao goddamn like what "high art" have you been watching that looks like this? That's what they want it to be like. They want us to feel that it's a new Dune or something.
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Apr 16, 2024 01:42
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essentia potentia est
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Apr 16, 2024 01:44
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painedforever posted:That's what they want it to be like. They want us to feel that it's a new Dune or something. I've seen other games try much harder for high art and fail far harder than that, here it's that it's entirely scifi schlock, but unaware of it and if it wasn't a game but a movie, it would be an enjoyable nanar, however the thing with games is that they are experienced actively and not passively, a bad movie can also be good but a bad game, even in plot only, will have you perfectly aware and able following the gameplay to suffer through the story.
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Apr 16, 2024 01:53
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Runa posted:essentia potentia est This would be a great thread title if not for the fact that the thread title is a solved problem. Much like the humble Swarm Host, this is a title in search of a thread.
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Apr 16, 2024 02:01
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Warmachine posted:That's why I compared them to siege tanks, because the role we're discussing is 'semi-mobile zoning tool.' It's a thing that creates a particular danger zone when rooted that makes your opponent not want to fight there/gives you an advantage if they do. Ravagers indeed are probably the cleanest and best design for a new unit introduced during SC2, especially for Zerg, but yes, they weren't a thing until LOTV. My point is actually that SC1 Zerg already had a semi-mobile area denial tool in the Lurker, and that was not only fine, but a good addition to zergs playstyle. Where I think the comparison to siege tanks falls over is that 'more bodies' isn't really an area denial threat. Again, swarm hosts aren't expected to have the same impact that siege tanks are and as you said, trying to mesh that idea of swarm hosts as siege tanks simply doesn't seem to fit into zerg's hypermobile playstyle. Instead, what does a swarm host, on paper, provide to the zerg that they don't already have? We've already established that it's not (entirely) area denial. A force of siege tanks is a formidable bastion of firepower that must be approached properly lest the damage to your forces ultimately render the exchange moot; a force of swarm hosts simply requires a source of detection and enough damage to overcome the locust waves to render them a waste of zerg resources. The answer lies in the zerg armies hypermobility itself. Unlike terran, swarm hosts (supposedly) provide their own cover and the zerg, already more mobile, can use the locusts to exert pressure on multiple fronts. This provides the opponent with a faustian bargain, or a fork of sorts: warding off the main force of the zerg allows the swarm host to simply fling locusts at you, and locusts being free means any material exchange is a zerg advantage. Conversely, trying to sally out and kill the swarm host can take a lot of time and provides the zerg with a multitude of options, whether that be striking at your production and economy directly, or using their mobility to flank and hammer your forces directly, crushing them against that anvil that is a wall of free locusts, each not particularly strong but amply expendable. Of course, this is on paper. But it did happen, and swarm hosts ability to exchange free units for opponent material was a consistent problem for at least some of it's lifetime in the competitive scene. My question is why blizzard decided that so many of zergs tools should create free units, and my theory is that SC2, being a much more macro-focused game, also led to zerg feeling like their traditional identity of having more units than their opponent simply was less true. Zerglings, hydralisks and mutalisks had already had to be nerfed from their SC1 counterparts (all for slightly different reasons and not entirely without merit), and the devs were looking to restore some of that 'swarm' feeling. And well, the swarm host is the result. I... wish it were better, honestly. Not numerically, it's far too degenerate for that in multiplayer, but design wise.
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Apr 16, 2024 02:03
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Warmachine posted:This would be a great thread title if not for the fact that the thread title is a solved problem. Much like the humble Swarm Host, this is a title in search of a thread. such is life
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Apr 16, 2024 02:04
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Torchlighter posted:Ravagers indeed are probably the cleanest and best design for a new unit introduced during SC2, especially for Zerg, but yes, they weren't a thing until LOTV. If I remember right, the tech advancement of being able to select lots of units combined with pathfinding advancements to make lots of units move around each other more fluidly had a massive impact on this consideration. And I think I agree with the rest of your thoughts. I knew WoL competitive a lot better than HOTS competitive, so I'll defer to you on theorycraft vs starcraft (  ). I definitely agree that I wish it was better from a unit utility standpoint. The concept is cool, and especially the boss monsters in co-op and the campaign that make use of the mechanic are actually pretty cool on a pure "bug that spawns bugs" level. Its design was definitely in line with the swarm identity, but mechanically it just didn't deliver on the promise.
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Apr 16, 2024 02:12
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Warmachine posted:If I remember right, the tech advancement of being able to select lots of units combined with pathfinding advancements to make lots of units move around each other more fluidly had a massive impact on this consideration. SC1 zerglings and mutas were matchup defining when you could only select 12 of them at a time, being able to do more would be completely untenable. Hydras are a somewhat weird case. In SC1, they still had 80 HP, but they were also Medium size, which means they took 75% damage from a surprisingly large amount of sources. They were also in a strange place on the tech tree, kind of a tier 1.5 unit with use cases. In SC2, they are instead biological/light, take full damage from everything and bonus from certain sources. The roach is more tanky, but both the roach and the hydra are competing with the swarm queen, as pointed out by bisby, and while roach-hydra is a viable comp the hydra definitely isn't the SC1 hydra.
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Apr 16, 2024 03:56
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The main nerf hydras got was the increase from 1 to 2 supply and the increased resource cost. They got a substantial dps increase to compensate but overall an SC2 hydra is weaker than a comparable cost of SC1 hydras.
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Apr 16, 2024 09:20
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They certainly feel a lot weaker.
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Apr 16, 2024 13:40
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It's probably a warranted nerf. If your macromanagement is good, ZvP and ZvT both have builds which are viable up to the ASL level that boil down to building a fuckload of hydras. You don't need any other units, you don't need lair tech, you don't need anything except the hydralisk den and its two upgrades plus enough hatcheries to make larvae to support that. You don't even need that much gas. In ZvP three-hatch hydra is a crazy strong build that dominates the early midgame and completely dominates every single protoss unit except the high templar and kind of reavers. One on one zealots win straight up and in terms of cost against hydras, but hydras take half the population space, are infinitely more microable, don't need supporting units, and scale far, far better thanks to being ranged units. Once it's 20v20 the hydras win instead of zealots. If you can get your base bust to the protoss' front door before they have psi storm, they are dead. It's marginally better in ZvT because marines do win cost effectively against hydras, but it's not a guaranteed thing, there is play where you can make hydras win against bio. But the reason hydras are still nuts is that they beat out the entirety of terran mechanized compositions, it's why it's so incredibly rare to see mech in ZvT. Building a bunch of one single unit instantly invalidates most of the terran tech tree. The siege tank does scale better than the hydras, but it's very difficult to get to that point.
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Apr 16, 2024 19:49
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You're all missing the big picture. The real nerf to the Hydralisk was them losing that awesome attack sound effect.
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Apr 17, 2024 01:33
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That's true for pretty much every unit though.
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Apr 17, 2024 06:19
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They used to squirt squirt and enemies would hurt hurt
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Apr 17, 2024 06:32
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I spent a little time thinking about it, do hydras even have a sound effect anymore?
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Apr 17, 2024 07:37
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Poil posted:I spent a little time thinking about it, do hydras even have a sound effect anymore? Yeah it's like fwip fwip fwip fwip. Keep your lips together then exhale out your mouth for a fraction of a second in rapid succession. That's what it sounds like.
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Apr 17, 2024 07:58
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Co-op Showcase 5: Tychus Findlay (Ft. MagusofStars) Video: Tychus Showcase  Near the end of co-op's active development the devs made an important realization: honestly, who gives a poo poo about canon for this mode? So gently caress it, playable Tychus. This is now an alt timeline where he managed to get off Char alive somehow who cares.  He has a bit of an unusual unit list, but things will get weirder. 
 Tychus Attack Speed: +1% per point, +30% max. Tychus Shredder Grenade Cooldown: +-1% per point, -30% max. Tri-Outlaw Research Improvement: +0.5% per point, +15% max. Outlaw Availability: -3s per point, -90s max. Medivac Pickup Cooldown: -1.5s per point, -45s max. Odin Cooldown: -4s per point, -120s max. Prestiges Technical Recruiter
 Today, we're robbing a few trains.   As soon as the map starts, a Hercules flies in.  Depositing its cargo, Joeyray's Bar, straight from Mar Sara.  The Bar is where all the Outlaws are hired, implying that all nine of them got dropped in from orbit and are currently getting hammered.  Mission control for today is Mr. Hill, the guy who sold us merc contracts back in Wings. The mission itself is The Great Train Robbery 2.  The Outlaws are split into three categories: Guns (damage), Muscle (tanks), and Fixers (support). Each type has a building that acts as a prereq and holds all gear upgrades for them.  You can also see two bars slowly filling up on my top bar. Those act as spawn timers.  More often than not, I go for the Muscle Armory for my first Outlaw.  Tychus spawns after 3 minutes, as well as opening up the first Outlaw slot.   Rattlesnake, on the job!The vast majority of the time, Rattlesnake the Marauder will be your first pick.  Tychus himself is the same as he was in Belly of the Beast with all his numbers boosted, while the other eight Outlaws are bigger versions of standard units, all with their own active ability. Despite having full names they don't get any unique voice lines, instead having the generic lines of their base unit.  Rattlesnake's ability is Deploy Revitalizer, throwing down a large healing field that heals 2% life per second and lasts for 30 seconds. Now, you might be wondering why Rattlesnake's ability is oddly off-center.  That's because the Outlaw's command card is unique, in that it stacks all the active abilities in one card when everyone is selected rather than having to hit Tab to flip between units. Tychus is always on Q, with the other Outlaws getting placed on W, E, R, and T based on when they were hired. Rattlesnake is on W since I bought him first this time, but if I got him third on another map he'd instead be on E.  Once an Outlaw is hired, upgrades for them unlock at their respective prereq building. Each has three basic gear upgrades that all cost 600/150, and buying all three opens up an ultimate upgrade that costs 1200/400. This makes economy management far more important than a measly five man army would imply, as a hasty purchase of an upgrade you don't really need can really slow you down. At worst, burning all your cash right before another Outlaw slot opens up means having to delay your next Outlaw for a good while! Anyways, Rattlesnake's upgrades are the Umojan Signal Modulator (doubles heal rate of Revitilizers), Mobius Aggression Blend (Revitalizers give +15% attack speed to all allies in range), Secret Stash Stimpack (autocast ability that gives Rattlesnake 2 life/s regen and +50% attack/move speed), and his ultimate gear is Hammer Munitions (normal attacks slow and deal 50% damage in an area).  The Engineering Bay holds more universal upgrades for each class of Outlaw on top of the usual attack and armor (also, armor upgrades come with an extra +10% life per level). Guns get ITC-E Triggers (+25% attack speed), Muscle gets Endurance Supplements (+25% life), and Fixers get Flashforce GDM Visor (gain Detection). The Big Red Button upgrade (replaces the Odin's Barrage with a nuke) is here as well.  Tychus is extremely strong.  And his upgrades are in the Gunslinger' Hideout. Tychus gets KD9a Implosion Core (Shredder Grenade gets a pull and stun effect), Vanadium Shell (Shredder Grenade damage increased by 50), Kel-Morian Ripper Rounds (Tychus' attacks decrease enemy armor by 5 for 2 seconds), and his ultimate gear is SureShot Networked Helm (Tychus deals +20% damage for each nearby Outlaw).   The trains are the same as Great Train Robbery. Each one gets an escort to protect it.  Destroy it before it escapes.  Although the trains don't leave resource caches on death this time, since we have a regular base compared to the slim mineral lines of the original mission.  Tychus' last building (outside of a piddly autocannon for base defense) is the Medivac Platform.  Once built it opens up Tychus' first top bar ability, Medivac Pickup, which grabs all Outlaws in a small area and transporting them somewhere else, much like Nova's transport. But as a bonus, it also cloaks the Outlaws on landing and gives them 5% regen for 10 seconds. Three Medivac Platforms can be made, and each has its own 2 minute base cooldown. All in all, Tychus has some of the simpliest macro out of all the Commanders. Three Outlaw buildings, two Engineering Bays, three Medivac Platforms, done. All money from then on can go towards buying more Outlaws and getting gear.  Spectre's here! Hide the terrazine.Speaking of, new Outlaw! Each Outlaw after the first takes about 4 minutes to open up.  Nux the Spectre technically has Ultrasonic Pulse like his Wings counterparts.  I say technically because it's no longer an AOE stun, instead being turned into a palette swapped Psionic Storm that deals 20 damage per second for 6 seconds. Nux's upgrades are T4 Cloudburst Shells (Ultrasonic Pulse damage increased by 50%), Ultrasonic Boosters (Ultrasonic Pulse radius increased by 50%), Crystalline Amplifiers (Ultrasonic Pulse duration increased by 100%), and N3 Networking (reduces cooldowns of all nearby Outlaws by 20%).    Upgrading an Outlaw has a big beam of light flash up, plus a few guitar notes play.  It also fills up a bar underneath the Outlaw's top bar portrait, so you can tell at a glance who has the most upgrades.   Alright! Get on the ship, ya numbskulls! And a quick demonstration of Medivac Pickup. It's an extremely powerful tool that pulls triple duty as rapid transportation, emergency healing, and aggro management.     My fourth Outlaw is Sirius the Warhound, who holds the honor of being the only naturally playable Warhound in SC2.  His ability is Deploy Warhound Turret, which spawns a turret that has a one minute lifespan, a 15 second cooldown, and can hold 5 charges. This lets Sirius slap down 5 turrets at the start of a fight for lot of sustained damage. His upgrades are SA-55 Thunderbolt Missiles (Sirius gains an autocast ability that fires 8 missiles with 100 damage each at air targets. Turrets gain a weaker version that fires 2 missiles), Moebius M34 Terror Rounds (Sirius has a 30% chance on attack to apply Fear in a small area for 3 seconds. Turrets have a 3% chance), D99 Detonator (Sirius triggers a 300 damage explosion on death, Turrets explode for 50 damage on death), and Umojan Turret Frame (Turrets gain +75% life and damage). Also, the bonus shows up here.   They're the speedy, unescorted trains. The bottom track is only used for these.  Also, I somehow missed a few Hybrid that were part of the last train's escort.  Good thing I have a solution for that!   You ain't gotta tell me twice!The Odin, much like Tychus himself, got a decent buff for this, with its ground attacks now dealing double damage compared to Media Blitz. It only stays out for 60 seconds, but that's more than enough time for it to clear out any major threats. Each Odin calldown also gives it a single use of Barrage. Or, since I got the Big Red Button...  ...a 1000 damage nuke.   You can use the Odin for big pushes to really do some damage, but I tend to keep it on hand as a panic button. If something catches me off-guard, the Odin will swiftly take care of it. As a bonus, if Tychus dies (dead Outlaws can be revived for 250 minerals at the bar after 30 seconds), bringing out the Odin revives him for free!  The bonus trains aren't as fast as the boosted trains in GTR, but they can still travel a good distance even without an escort.    Also there's nothing stopping you from shoving the Odin into a Medivac.  Once it times out a Hercules drops in to pick it up.  Trains 4 and 5 start simultaneously, forcing the players to split up.  As mentioned in the level list, Tychus' stat upgrades go up to level 5, but they're so pricey that they usually aren't worth it over buying more gear upgrades.  But I do it anyways, and I have enough cash left over to fully upgrade Sirius.  Which has the added effect of making his turrets much bigger.   And then I can pop over to help Magus deal with theirs.  Reaper man's come a-knocking!Just in time for the fifth Outlaw slot to open up.  Crooked Sam's ability is the Demolition Charge, which tags an enemy with a 5 second delayed explosive that deals 500 damage. His upgrades are LarsCorp G7 Charges (Demolition Charge damage increased by 100%), Moebius Restraint Matrix (Demolition Charge stuns target for the duration), Procyon Shade Suit (grants damage immunity and +80% movement speed for 5 seconds after being attacked. 15s cooldown), and Enhanced Hostilities Kit (cooldown of Demolition Charge reduced by 3 seconds on each attack).  Tychus is one of the easiest Commanders to play as, for very good reason. A full force of five Outlaws is insanely powerful, you can easily pick and choose your team based on what the enemy is fielding, and even if you get them killed all it takes is 30 seconds and 1250 minerals to get everyone back!   Like look at this team. Tychus (with the pull+stun upgrade) and Nux will shred crowds. Rattlesnake keeps everyone patched up while also making them kill faster. Sirius can throw down over 1000 life worth of turrets between the gang and an enemy. Sam can lock down high-threat targets while the others shoot it down.   All the while the Medivac makes it trivial to bounce around the map as needed.  Trains 7 and 8 silently come in.  Sam's Demo Charges can stun Hybrid lol.   And the second bonus also starts up. Sam's Demo Charges can't stop a train, but he can slap one on individual segments to stack multiple explosions.   The last train always comes out of the middle track.       But before I end things-  A quick trip back to Korhal to show off a few more Outlaws.  The doc's finally come in!First is Nikara, the Medic. Her ability is Reinvigorating Burst, which heals nearby allies for 200 life and gives them +25% damage and 10 life regen for 10 seconds. Her upgrades are Umojan Repair Nanites (burst heal and regen on Reinvigorating Burst increased by 100%), Procyon Serum (regular heal increased by 100%), Procyon Twin Heal Beam Gauntlet (can heal two targets at once), and XM-77 Matrix Generator (ability that gives target ally a 400 point shield for 20 seconds).  She's actually kinda bad to use because she has no auto-attack, so she'll happily charge into the enemy and get blasted! The sheer amount of healing she does is honestly kinda overkill if you aren't playing on Brutal with mutators on, so just stick with Rattlesnake as a healer.  You can't even use the ol' 'set the Medic to follow someone' trick since you need her selected to use her skill!  I just saw me a ghost. Heh.The other main one is Vega, the Ghost. She uses a tweaked version of Nova's Dominate from Ghost of a Chance that gives the target +50% damage and lasts for 240 seconds. Her upgrades are Moebius Psionic Motivator (Dominate fully restores target's life, shields and energy while giving it +75% attack speed), Neural Disruption Device (Dominate also Confuses nearby enemies for 10 seconds, forcing them to attack each other), Psi Projector (ability that allows Vega to drag up to 5 flying targets to the ground), and Type-88 Persuader (Dominate duration increased by 200%).  The reason I chose Rifts to Korhal is to show off something important. Remember how, during Nova's showcase, I mentioned that her Goliaths got nerfed so they couldn't stunlock Heroic units?  Well Sam never got the memo, and can happily pin the Pirate Ship in place for 15 seconds straight.   Vega and Nux want opposite things from the enemy. Nux wants large hordes that he can fry with Ultrasonic Pulse, while Vega wants high-tech powerhouses to yoink and add to your own army.  But when you get the right enemy comp, Dominate is devastating. That's a Thor and a Siege Tank, both with +50% damage and +75% attack speed! And Vega can hold three charges of Dominate at once with no limit on how many units she can steal!  And with her ultimate gear upgrade Dominate lasts for 12 minutes. Aside from defense based missions like Oblivion Express or Void Launch that has a long time between waves, her ult gear might as well read 'Dominate lasts forever'.  Also here's our first look at enemy Liberators. The targeting circle is clearly visible so you know where they're aiming, and it flashes red as they transform.  There are two Outlaws I didn't make here, both of them Muscle. The first is Miles 'Blaze' Lewis, the Firebat, who also appeared in Heroes of the Storm. His main ability is Oil Spill, which covers a group of enemies in oil which reduces their attack and movement speed by 75% and hits them with a 10 second 5 (+5 vs Light) damage DoT if they're struck with any kind of fire attack. His upgrades are High Capacity Containers (Oil Spill radius increased by 100%), Hades Oil (Oil Spill's DoT damage is increased to 5 (+25 vs Light)), Wildflame Fuel Additives (enemies afflicted by Oil Spill's DoT explode on death, spreading the DoT to nearby enemies), and XCMX-670 Combat Suit (Damage taken is capped at 30).  He's basically tailor-made for Infested missions and not much else.  The other is Rob 'Cannonball' Boswell, the HERC. Don't know what a HERC is? That's because they're a second planned unit for terrans that ended up getting scrapped!  His ability is Heavy Impact, letting him grapple to a target while dealing 20 damage and stunning anything on the other end. His upgrades are X-71 Impact Boots (Heavy Impact's stun radius and duration increased by 100%), Critical Response System (fully heal and become immune to damage for 5 seconds after taking a fatal hit. 60s cooldown), Redline Power Cells (increases attack speed by 3% and damage by 3 on every attack. Caps at +60% and +60 and resets after being out of combat for 5 seconds), and M.A.L.I.C.E. Ammunition (30% chance to deal 4x damage on attack).  Cannonball is... kinda mid. His ability means he'll yeet himself clean out of Nikara's range (and you will be using Nikara unless you want to double up on tanks), fights don't last nearly long enough for Redline to fully ramp up, and even his ult gear doesn't amount to much when Rattlesnake can make everyone kill better.  Tychus is my second favorite terran Commander. Just throw big armies out the window and roll over everything that moves with a small, sleek killing machine.   
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Apr 18, 2024 03:23
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>rattlesnake first over sirius first >cannonball kinda mid  i'll have more words to say later but for now know that my confusion is only matched by my disappointment Kith fucked around with this message at 03:47 on Apr 18, 2024 |
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Apr 18, 2024 03:45
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For the record, the trailer they made to introduce Tychus to Co-op only made me adore his character more, because it's the only halfway canon source of information on what Tychus would have done without Mengsk holding a gun to his head. They don't explain how Tychus survived Char; just that he did. However, during his narration of how he ended up in co-op, Tychus claims that it took a long time to patch things up with Jimmy - which indicates that Tychus put in the effort to do so. And then, even though he didn't stay on with Raynor's Raiders properly, he went out and re-formed the Heavens' Devils, the unit that Tychus and Raynor used to be a part of, and he did so with the explicit purpose of helping his buddy. Tychus is the best drat character. He's a bastard, he's a scoundrel, he's a criminal and murderer, but drat it, he is loyal to his friends.
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Apr 18, 2024 04:23
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Tychus. My man. His army is streamlined to the limit. His build and research tree is minimal (as long as you focus on what you need). He doesn't need to manage supply. He doesn't even really need base defenses (although his auto-turrets are surprisingly not too bad, especially at clearing or at least softening the expansion rocks.) No, it is just him and his four other folks roving around blasting the absolute poo poo out of the enemy, whoever they may be. And they are all good. Yes, even that one I can't tell you how many times I've smooth moved with Medivacs. Immediately pick up the Outlaws out of a fire, drop them back elsewhere, have them heal and shoot untouched while cloaked, laugh menacingly. And very little can beat an Odin's nuke. Except perhaps your (Terran) partner's nuke. With positional awareness, smart ability usage, and Medivac jumping, there is little debate that Tychus is THE strongest Commander to play. Well, he and another we will get to way way way later. But he is my main Commander of choice. Oh, he can also be purchased to be your Announcer, with all the hijinks that entails. You can also tell how overpowered he is by the fact that ALL his prestige options are viable. Even vanilla, which can be quite good for short duration missions if you don't really need any bells and whistles. Technical Recruiter is ideal for longer missions, though it can still work on any map, and is also my prestige of choice for general play. The main thing is having to wait a bit longer to get a full hand (which can take up to 21 game time minutes), and perhaps having to rely on your partner to shore up any deficiencies while waiting (including perhaps helping your economy). Though ideally upgrade expenditures should be focused more on their Gear than the general damage and armor/health ones. Yes, this does stack with the Shredder Grenade Cooldown Mastery to bring it to as low as 7 seconds. Yes, this does stack with Nux's N3 Networking, bringing it down even further to 5.6 seconds. Hopefully he doesn't tire his throwing arm from all that throwing. Lone Wolf may be difficult to coordinate at first, but the payoff is insanely fun. It's not unusual to have one Outlaw (usually Sirius) just stay on guard at base or at a spawn point to stop entire attack waves, while another Outlaw (usually Tychus, sometimes Sam) goes out and about soloing objectives. I've believe we've seen such a feat a few times in these demonstrations (the one for Nova in Miner Evacuation, where Tych takes on entire bonus objectives all on his own). It's pretty strong. Yes, this does include Siruis's turrets and Vega's dominates. Hell, this prestige was even STRONGER. When it was first released it was a flat 200% damage increase IMMEDIATELY. So it was pretty common to see people use Tychus and ONLY Tychus to fight with. No one else. Yes, it was pretty insane. They had to nerf it so you have to recruit other Outlaws now for the full benefit, and even then it "only" goes up to 150%. The malus to Gear is not that big a deal overall. The overall adjusted cost (2250 minerals and 567 gas) is CHEAPER than the original cost with Ultimates (3000 minerals and 850 gas). Also the damage increase and reduction covers that of what would have been gained from the Ultimates anyway, at even greater effect. Rattlesnake may no longer AOE slow, but his single target damage would be more than enough anyway. Honestly, the only real Outlaw affected would be Nikara, since she can no longer shield (and no, she doesn't finally get a gun for this prestige, that's Lt. Morales' gimmick). She is still useful regardless if you or your partner needs her services. But again, you probably won't that much even with other prestiges (unless the mutation calls for it). Dutiful Dogwalker is rather straightforward (but not as much beating over the head in its obviousness as the Thor pilot now being old and wizened with white hair, having an eyepatch over his left eye, and a valknut on his bandanna...since he's literally Odin, you see.). With a maximum uptime of 120 seconds (and a minimum cooldown of 144 seconds), he is essentially your Sixth Outlaw on the field, for all that entails. While he may not be authorized to fire a nuke (we can't have one in the wrong hands can we?), he can still bring some tremendous firepower, replacing a powerful damage burst with more sustained DPS (as long as you keep him out for the full duration). The ACTUAL disadvantage to this is that since Tychus is no longer the pilot, he can no longer get a free revive by summoning it. So try to keep him alive more here if you can. Hell, try to keep him alive regardless of prestige. But even more so here. (Also The Tri-Outlaw Research Improvement Mastery is a bit of an odd duck. It adds up to 15% attack speed for ITC-E Triggers, 15% life for Endurance Supplements, and 15% vision range for Flashforce GDM Visor. I.e.: a whopping 1.5 range. Game-breaking for sure.) (Also also, while Vega can't cloak like other Ghosts, her rifle does have the anti-Light bonus. Sadly this does not affect the also visible Nux, who doesn't get the anti-Armored bonus like his fellow Spectres.) Also, your second favorite Terran commander? Should we guess who your favorite is, unless it's the last one we haven't met yet (of which I also love their playstyle, don't get me wrong)? SteveSteveSteve fucked around with this message at 09:36 on Apr 18, 2024 |
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Apr 18, 2024 08:45
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Co-Op Tychus comes from a better timeline, where Blizzard didn't kill off pretty much the only interesting character in WoL.
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Apr 18, 2024 09:54
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BlazetheInferno posted:For the record, the trailer they made to introduce Tychus to Co-op only made me adore his character more, because it's the only halfway canon source of information on what Tychus would have done without Mengsk holding a gun to his head. You know, that actually works for the way Tychus' big betrayal as a mole is just to (try to) kill someone that was already Raynor's enemy. Maybe the reason he never ratted on or sabotaged the Raiders is that Mengsk just couldn't make him do that even with a gun to his head.
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Apr 18, 2024 10:28
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The problem with Tychus is that he's the kind of OP that makes the game less fun. He's broadly so simple and powerful that there's just not that much to do a lot of the time. Lone Wolf is cool for the multitasking aspect, but it is absolutely miserable to be the ally and have someone else handily soloing the whole map at once. The single combined command card is really great though (aside from LW, where its a bit pointless), and I hope more games pick it up. My only slight issue is when I choose different build orders from one game to the next and start hitting the wrong hotkey.
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Apr 18, 2024 12:02
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Tenebrais posted:You know, that actually works for the way Tychus' big betrayal as a mole is just to (try to) kill someone that was already Raynor's enemy. Maybe the reason he never ratted on or sabotaged the Raiders is that Mengsk just couldn't make him do that even with a gun to his head. I will say, what makes his survival more interesting is that apparently Mengsk didn't realize Tychus had survived. Really makes me wish they had explored this timeline a little more. "I made a deal with the devil - always knew how it was gonna end. Turns out though, it wasn't my day to die! Not that ol' Mengsk knew any better. Took me a good while to patch things up with Jimmy, but that boy's always gettin' himself into some sort of trouble. So I reformed the Heaven's Devils to help 'im out."
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Apr 18, 2024 14:32
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Tychus: probably the easiest commander to play. So drat strong. A couple things to note:
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Apr 18, 2024 14:39
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Trivia, Lieutenant Nikara (the medic) is a character from the books, she was one of the four UED medics who subdued the Overmind in Brood War (the other named one is Izsha, who Kerrigan captured and turned into her current form).
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Apr 18, 2024 14:43
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I don't think I remember any sort of backstory for Nikara like that, or any at all. The most I could find was a medic who was also a psionic named Amanda Haley in a comic short story, who was infested by QOB Kerrigan as part of some experiment or other. https://starcraft.fandom.com/wiki/Amanda_Haley posted:"According to a panel at BlizzCon 2011, the character Izsha who appears in StarCraft II: Heart of the Swarm was actually Amanda Haley. However, no references to this appeared in the game or on Izsha's hero page." Blizzard not getting their own stories straight? Get out of here! However, an Outlaw who did get a later appearance, also in a comic short story, would be Sirius, aka James Sykes, who appeared in Blizz's doomed further comics (as tied to their War Chest things). This occurs in the "real world" after the game series where he is not a Devil but just a regular mercenary, so: He double crosses the comic's main character and shoots her companion. She responds by breaking his neck. ...Yeah, I prefer the alternate reality Sirius, thanks. SteveSteveSteve fucked around with this message at 16:11 on Apr 18, 2024 |
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Apr 18, 2024 16:07
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All Elites is a fun style to play when it works right.
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Apr 18, 2024 16:18
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Alright, time to effortpost about Tychus. First up is Prestiges. Technical Recruiter is for if you want to spam abilities like crazy, and it's real good at doing that. However, the 50% increase to Outlaw cost and recruitment time bites hard, so you'll have to be making the absolute most of it at all times. Additionally, Abilities don't scale with generic weapon upgrades, so you'll likely be even more reliant on Abilities since the core unit stats will be lacking. Dutiful Dogwalker gets to go second instead of third because there's not much to say about it - you get the Odin constantly, but as a result it's just a statball. Cool if you want to have what is effectively a Sixth Ranger, but otherwise unimpressive. Lone Wolf is busted. Absolutely loving nuts busted. The first thing I'll touch on is how it adds 50% Damage Resistance to your dudes, basically doubling their health. However, since this is Starcraft II and Armor works on a 1-1 basis unless otherwise noted, in some cases it's effectively triple or even quadruple depending on where you're at with upgrades. The second part I'll touch on is the +30% damage bonus per Outlaw recruited. Tychus himself counts for this, so right out of the box you've got a Tychus that deals +30% damage, meaning you can go beat the hell out of things that much earlier. On top of that, that damage bonus applies to abilities and related units, meaning that your Shredder Grenades and Ultrasonic Pulses and Dominated Units and Warhound Turrets all deal anywhere from +30% to +150% damage and take 50% less damage (where applicable). Additionally, being a damage bonus, you get more bonus damage the higher your base damage goes, making Weapon Upgrades significantly stronger. The downside of these benefits are significantly less concerning than they initially appear. The 25% cost increase to Gear hurts since Gear is already so expensive, but that's basically just a surcharge to account for the insane power boost that all units get as a matter of course. The lack of Ultimate Gear also hurts somewhat, but in the big scheme of things, Ultimate Gear tends to be something to pick up when you have nothing better to do with your resource float because you have to purchase all of the previous Gear upgrades to access them anyway. Besides, Lone Wolf's buff is stronger than Ultimate Gear in a lot of cases: it gives Tychus more damage than the SureShot Networked Helm, it gives the Warhound Turrets more damage and effective health than the Umojan Turret Frame, it gives Cannonball more damage on average than M.A.L.I.C.E. Ammunition, it gives Dominated Units a brutal damage and durability boost instead of a duration boost, and it makes Ultrasonic Pulse deal up to 150% more damage instead of providing a 20% cooldown reduction. The elephant in the room is that Lone Wolf forces you to split your Outlaws, as they no longer benefit from the buff if they're near each other. This is significantly less debilitating than you'd think since it makes individual Outlaws so powerful, but also because you can now address Tychus's greatest strategic weakness: Defense. With Lone Wolf, all you have to do is park an Outlaw wherever you need to defend - at a base entrance or at an expansion, for example - and the problem is solved. Plop down an Auto-turret next to them for Detection if they're not a Fixer and you'll likely never have to worry about it ever again. If an attack wave comes their way, tab over to them, cast their abilities as necessary, and then go back to whatever you were doing (which is probably making Tychus beat the hell out of things). Lone Wolf is one of the strongest Prestiges in the game, if not THE strongest. Its downsides are completely negligible and its benefits are ridiculously, overwhelmingly powerful. So now let's talk fellas, vaguely listed in order of relative strength:
Kith fucked around with this message at 05:23 on Apr 20, 2024 |
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Apr 18, 2024 22:18
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BlazetheInferno posted:For the record, the trailer they made to introduce Tychus to Co-op only made me adore his character more, because it's the only halfway canon source of information on what Tychus would have done without Mengsk holding a gun to his head. how the hell did they made better story for co-op character than for entire HOTS.
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Apr 18, 2024 22:23
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Szarrukin posted:how the hell did they made better story for co-op character than for entire HOTS. Chris Metzen was uninvolved.
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Apr 18, 2024 23:00
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Korhal 1: Planetfall Video: Planetfall  Just three more missions until we can finally get out of Heart.    We will lose countless drop-pods in the opening moments. We're sending millions. Even if only a fraction gets through... It'll still be more than enough to take out these orbital defenses from the ground.   The drop-pods start falling.  While the defenses start firing.  But, as Kerrigan said, we have millions.       I'm going to handle this personally.  Kerrigan has learned the power of on-entry nukes.   Alert me the moment one breaks through.  The goal is to keep five Bile Launchers alive. It's a bit of a reversal of Gates of Hell, storming the terran homeworld while waiting for things to land.  Show me where it will land. It will arrive here, my queen. Right where the last one dropped.   I will deliver you and your Swarm back to whatever hell you crawled out of. And like how Gates of Hell had random debris falling from the sky, Planetfall has hunks of meat from shot down drop-pods fall.    Alongside the Bile Launcher itself I also get some free units, and even a pair of Spine Crawlers.  Which means we can't afford to lose the ones that get through.That's because unlike Gates of Hell, where you just grab the reinforcements and head back to base, I have to keep the Bile Launchers safe until five of them have landed. Some free static defense will buy me some time to get over if an attack wave hits at an awkward moment.  Each Launcher's landing point will give me a few minutes to clear out any defenders before it arrives.  Since this is the end of the game, Mengsk is not loving around.  When the Bile Launcher finishes, it'll start shooting goo into the air. It doesn't have any impact on the mission until the fifth one finishes.     The bonus objective opens here, but since we're past the point of Kerrigan levels this one has zero benefit beyond an obligatory achievement.  The third Launcher is the first to have defenders.  And while I wait for it to land I might as well clear out this expansion.   Say hello to Apocalypse.   Kerrigan doesn't even need help to take this base.  The third Launcher gives some free Ultralisks, but no Spine Crawlers.  And the fourth is set to land inside a base.  Mengsk sends a marked attack wave at me.  It's surprisingly beefy!  Then I have to go save a Bile Launcher.  Now I can go clear out the landing zone.   I'm not sure if this was pure timing or if I set off a trigger, but a drop-pod with a few Zerglings came in shortly after I got close.  A second expansion is here, but I figured I'll be fine with one and just cap the geysers instead.  The fourth comes with a few Mutalisks.  And the last is just past my expansion.  Might as well crack these gates.  I sorta got a bit sidetracked.  Eh, it's loving Heart of the Swarm, it's not like Kerrigan dying cripples my army.     At this point a bunch of drop-pods with allied units drop down, and head past the gate.  Even Stukov joins in!  Another marked attack.  This one is a flying wave.  And here's the final Bile Launcher.  Meanwhile Kerrigan is dealing with the second gate. And then something awkward happens. I kinda just...  Lost like all my anti-air.  And for whatever reason my economy has slowed to a crawl.  Because, as it turns out, waiting for the Bile Launchers takes so long that my starting base has completely mined out, halving my mineral income. Now, you'd think I'd suffer some form of setback here. Be forced to give up this Bile Launcher at the very least. But it doesn't loving matter! Kerrigan regroups with the rest of the army and solos two Battlecruisers entirely offscreen.  I have so few minerals I can't even get started on throwing a Hatch on the other expansion.  But the last Launcher finishes building right as I get it started.        The rest of the mission is clean-up. I no longer have to keep the Bile Launchers alive, and just have to clear out all enemies from the marked points. If you try to get cheeky and fully clear that area while waiting for Launchers, the game will spawn in a small group of units there just so you can't win the mission instantly.  But first, the final gate. This base has to go just so they can't take potshots at me.    Zagara, take your brood into the city while I deal with the remaining Dominion forces. Yes, my queen.  Since I forgot to watch it get destroyed, the second gate had Dehaka and a bunch of primals drop in.  Now all that's left are these guys.      And done.         Planetfall - Complete the "Planetfall" mission in the Heart of the Swarm campaign. Fully Operational - Don’t lose a Bile Launcher in the “Planetfall” mission. Death Start - Destroy 3 Augustgrad Gates before the 5th Bile Launcher lands in the “Planetfall” mission on Normal difficulty. Crash the Party - Destroy all Dominion structures in the “Planetfall” mission before the 5th Bile Launcher lands on Hard difficulty. Salivary Conditioning - Destroy 20 Dominion structures in the "Planetfall" mission before the 3rd Bile Launcher lands on Normal difficulty.
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Apr 20, 2024 05:07
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Now for the climax that this dumb campaign deserves. It’s going to be stupid, it’s going to be insulting, and you can bet your rear end it’s going to be unsatisfying! I never played Legacy of the Void despite receiving it as a gift from a friend because I just couldn’t be bothered.
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Apr 20, 2024 06:25
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The name of that squad is so painfully embarrassing to read/hear. Every time.  Kurgarra Queen posted:I never played Legacy of the Void Kurgarra Queen posted:because I just couldn’t be bothered.
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Apr 20, 2024 07:39
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