Not As Bad As The Last Game - Let's Play Starcraft 2: Legacy of the Void

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > Let's Play! > Not As Bad As The Last Game - Let's Play Starcraft 2: Legacy of the Void

DTurtle: Apr 10, 2011

Tenebrais posted:

All three armies manage to feel significantly more powerful while still being more or less balanced, which is always good. Hell, as far as I can tell pro Starcraft 2 is thriving better these days than the original, now that it's been long enough that you can't chalk that up to recency bias. The main downside, at least when it comes to the e-sport, is that the control and pathfinding improvements mean the optimal strategy most of the time is to gather your army into a deathball and smash it into the enemy rather than fighting for territorial control over many fronts. Both games are very much worth watching if you're into that kind of thing.

Starcraft Broodwar/Remastered is basically only a thing in South Korea. There is I think only a tiny pro scene outside South Korea (mostly in China). However, due to streaming, it is actually bigger than Starcraft 2 in South Korea. Starcraft 2 in comparison has a very international pro scene that is bigger in total than the SC:R scene.

The days of Starcraft 2 pro multiplayer being almost only about building one large army and smashing them directly into each other hasn�t been a thing for years now - some exceptions excluded (most often Skytoss as an example).

# ¿ Jun 3, 2023 18:26

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# ¿ May 16, 2024 15:32

DTurtle: Apr 10, 2011

One of the smarter decisions Blizzard made with Starcraft 2 was to largely separate the single player and the multiplayer portions of the game. In fact, I would say that they didn�t go far enough in some cases - in later missions you should just start with fully built out bases, enough workers, etc.

Single player should stand on its own and get people hooked on the game play. 1v1 multiplayer is something completely different, that the vast majority of the players don�t enjoy anyway. Making the single player a tutorial for multiplayer is dumb and will lead to people not enjoying the game.

# ¿ Sep 27, 2023 23:58

DTurtle: Apr 10, 2011

Xarn posted:

It is an APM sink.

This. They actually had auto-inject and auto-chrono boost in the LOTV beta (I think), but removed it again, as it made macro too easy and simple.

There is at least one video of Artosis explaining that all the jankiness with unit movements, production, limited control groups, etc in SC 1 is what enables it to continue to be such a good competitive game, as there is an infinitely high skill ceiling.

# ¿ Sep 28, 2023 07:46

DTurtle: Apr 10, 2011

Warmachine posted:

I need to play classic SC again one of these days. The remaster doesn't look like it's worth the buy-in though (giving money to Blizzard aside), and I lost my install media from the battle chest decades ago.

Starcraft Remastered is actually good and worth playing instead of Starcraft Original.

# ¿ Oct 15, 2023 17:43

DTurtle: Apr 10, 2011

Tenebrais posted:

Don't see it happening with Reapers much though.

Mass reapers was nerfed numerous times because it was too powerful. I don't know if they were ever combined with Medivacs back then though. That was before the time I started watching competitive SC2.

# ¿ Oct 17, 2023 20:46

DTurtle: Apr 10, 2011

aniviron posted:

Here's the thing though, I suspect that the reason you can only select 12 units at a time is because the pathfinding absolutely shits the bed when you try to move large groups of units all at once. So sure, you can technically make a Brood War that lets you select more than 12 units, but I assume that it's still down to technical limitations in a more roundabout way.

Definitely this.

Here is an interesting blog post by the guy who is responsible for making mineral walking a thing. It was a "hack" in order to get around the huge problems created by the path-finding algorithm.

Some choice quotes:

quote:

Game-unit path-finding is something that most players never notice until it doesn�t work quite right, and then that minor issue becomes a rage-inducing, end-of-the-world problem. During the development of StarCraft there were times when path-finding just didn�t work at all.
...
But the biggest thing holding back StarCraft was unit path-finding.

It wasn�t that the path-finding was totally broken; in most cases it worked quite well. But there were enough edge-cases that the game was un-shippable.

Game units would get stuck and stop on the battlefield. Often they would go through elaborate efforts to find paths, inching forward or looping around but not making progress, and sometimes getting wedged and unable to move further. Entire task forces would get bogged down in what looked like the afternoon commute.
...
In an earlier article on this blog I alluded to the path-finding difficulties. StarCraft was built on the Warcraft engine, which renders terrain-art using a tile-engine that�s optimized to draw 32�32 pixel square tiles made of 16 8�8 pixel square cells. I architected Warcraft this way because it had worked well for our Super Nintendo and Genesis titles. Those game consoles had hardware support for drawing 8�8 cells, but the behavior was easy to emulate on a PC.
...
But along the way the development team switched StarCraft to isometric artwork to make the game more visually attractive (details in previous post). But the underlying terrain engine wasn�t re-engineered to use isometric tiles, only the artwork which was redrawn.

The new camera perspective looked great but in order for path-finding to work properly it was necessary to increase the resolution of the path-finding map: now each 8�8 tile was either passable or un-passable, increasing the size of the path-finding map by a factor of 16. While this finer resolution enabled more units to be squeezed onto the map, it also meant that searching for a path around the map would require substantially more computational effort to search the larger pathing-space.

Path-finding was now more challenging because diagonal edges drawn in the artwork split many of the square tiles unevenly, making it hard to determine whether a tile should be passable or not. Ensuring that all tiles were correctly marked required painstaking effort.
...
Because the project was always two months from launch it was inconceivable that there was enough time to re-engineer the terrain engine to make path-finding easier, so the path-finding code just had to be made to work. To handle all the tricky edge-cases, the pathing code exploded into a gigantic state-machine which encoded all sorts of specialized �get me out of here� hacks.
...
The basic problem with resource-gathering is that players want to max-out the number of harvesters working on each mineral deposit to maximize their cash flow. Those harvesters are commuting between the minerals and their base so they�re constantly running headlong into other harvesters traveling in the opposite direction. Given enough harvesters in a small space it�s entirely possible that some get jammed in and are unable to move until the mineral deposit is mined out.
...
My idea was simple: whenever harvesters are on their way to get minerals, or when they�re on the way back carrying those minerals, they ignore collisions other units. By eliminating the inter-unit collision code for the harvesters there is never a rush-hour commute to get jammed up, and harvesters operate efficiently.
...
The development team was able to work around some of the other path-finding problems and just plain ignore the rest, though the Protoss Dragoon in particular ended up with a bad reputation because, as the largest ground-unit, it frequently failed to path well.

# ¿ Oct 20, 2023 11:41

DTurtle: Apr 10, 2011

Edit: Removed due to:

SirSamVimes posted:

I mean, kinda jumping the gun there when all that is going to be in the next intermission update.

Sorry, completely forgot that they also posted the intermission for the alternative choice last time.

DTurtle fucked around with this message at 12:56 on Nov 11, 2023

# ¿ Nov 11, 2023 12:37

DTurtle: Apr 10, 2011

BisbyWorl posted:

Your Swarm bears the mark of Amon, the fallen xel'naga, who came to Zerus long ago. He forged the zerg into a weapon, and took them away. Yet some of us were hidden, overlooked. We multiplied. We remain pure. If you seek our power, you must become primal zerg. You must become pure.

Wait a second, the Zerg weren�t a project of the Xel�naga as a whole, but just a single "fallen" one?

# ¿ Feb 3, 2024 08:13

DTurtle: Apr 10, 2011

Tenebrais posted:

See this is part of why I liked the idea that the primals evolved from zerg left behind. Then there's good reason for them to have zerglings and hydralisks and ultralisks, since they did originally have those forms in their genome. Could even go one step further and give them only either units from Starcraft 1 and ones new to this mission chain (which is basically to say, don't give them roaches).

No, no, no!

The SC1 manual is very clear, that the "original" Zerg are small parasitic worms capable of taking over and assimilating other creatures and doing some targeted evolution. AFTER killing the Xel�naga, the Zerg went on a rampage through the galaxy, assimilating creatures and integrating them into the Swarm. Zerglings, Hydralisks and (most) other Zerg units even have the explicit planetary systems named where they are from. There shouldn�t be any "normal" Zerg units on Zerus�

# ¿ Feb 3, 2024 16:28

DTurtle: Apr 10, 2011

BisbyWorl posted:

[b]He desired our strength, the ability to steal essence. But we were independent... we would not follow. And so he bound the zerg to a single overriding will. They lost their identity, and became his slaves.

The hive mind. That's Amon's corruption?

It is, and a terrible fate for a strong primal zerg.

This is so dumb. And a complete rewrite of everything written in the SC1 manual�

quote:

Yep, the primals stealing my units isn't some extremely convenient case of both of us figuring out the same kind of ranged unit over a long period of time, they're cheap copies even in-universe! Within just a couple hours every primal pack in the area got the same idea and started mimicking the Swarm!

This is so dumb.

# ¿ Feb 4, 2024 11:58

DTurtle: Apr 10, 2011

GunnerJ posted:

So, I think it's fair to say that what's happening in this scene isn't just hitting an "undo" button of the WoL story, but otoh, I don't think it makes sense to downplay the aesthetic impact of the scene - the "pretty pictures." First of all, this is a Blizzard game, the aesthetic is a huge part of the experience. Secondly, the story of HotS is told cinematicly and in good cinematic storytelling, the visuals work to uphold the point of the story. Visually, this scene tells us really bluntly that Kerrigan is back to how she was before everything we did in WoL: she looks the way the Overmind made her, but purple now. This design throwback does not contribute to telling a story of Kerrigan doing something different and liberating and empowering on her own terms (though in fairness lots of other things in the scene do communicate power and freedom so it's a mixed bag).

And she already was liberated and free and doing her own thing in Broodwar.

# ¿ Feb 10, 2024 18:38

DTurtle: Apr 10, 2011

The Pandaren were also an April Fool's thing during the run up to the release of Warcraft 3.

# ¿ Feb 13, 2024 08:37

DTurtle: Apr 10, 2011

BisbyWorl posted:

Intermission 8
>Talk to Izsha.

�
So yeah, despite Izsha intoducing herself as the Queen of Blades' backup memory drive we still don't get any solid answers on what the hell Kerrigan was doing in Wings! She got a vision? Did Tassadar's ghost beam In Utter Darkness to her as well as Zeratul? Was she planning to try and outplay Amon? If so, what was the deal with her embracing her end back at the start of the Prophecy chain?

Don't ask such silly questions, go harvest some more essence!

Ok, so we have selective amnesia combined with a memory backup that doesn�t remember anything important except the irrelevant background information that Kerrigan can still mostly remember.

�

Why even introduce that whole memory backup? I mean, Kerrigan apparently still remembers most important things like the Overmind, being on Char, and most of the stuff she did as Queen Bitch of the Universe.

Let me guess: Amon still has (some) control over her? While freeing her from that control was the only semi-plausible reason for the whole dezergify-rezergify bullshit?

# ¿ Feb 26, 2024 00:14

DTurtle: Apr 10, 2011

BisbyWorl posted:

Char 2: Fire in the Sky
It's important to push down this side path first.

Firstly, some free Banelings after those Firebats die and a few caches.

You missed an essence here.

Also, seven times the exact same thing? They really phoned this mission in, didn�t they?

# ¿ Mar 2, 2024 08:11

DTurtle: Apr 10, 2011

gohuskies posted:

Is it more or less phoned in than "there are 3 or 4 special buildings that you have to destroy for some reason, each of them defended by an enemy base"? Personally it seems to me like a breath of fresh air!

If I see the map correctly, it�s just our base connected to the enemy base with a winding path. There are no expansions, just a few enemy outposts scattered along the path. There is no reactivity, no change in tactics or enemy composition. Finally, the "bonus" objective is just three carcasses randomly placed along the path.

This map could be built in an hour or two.

# ¿ Mar 2, 2024 08:43

DTurtle: Apr 10, 2011

BisbyWorl posted:

Intermission 12

Narud's been trying to resurrect his master for millennia.

Haven't they only been fighting for like three years or so?

BisbyWorl posted:

>Talk to Stukov.

You told me an ancient xel'naga artifact was used to make you human again. But all the power you wielded as the Queen of Blades... where did it go after your transformation?

You mean... there might have been hybrid nearby who gathered it? And... used it to... oh no.

If Narud used the xel'naga artifact in that way... he may already have enough energy to resurrect Amon.

So now psionic energy works like a drop from a boss? Something that can be gathered and used completely independently from any individual or being? No more need for "evolution" or integrating the DNA/"essence" from various species? Simply hoover up the psionic energy from the enemy!

Apparently now we know that dezerging and rezerging Kerrigan actually had an effect. All her psionic energy was hoovered up by the hybrids in order to revive Amon! Which is why Kerrigan was completely powerless after being dezerged - all her psionic energy was absorbed and stolen by some hybrids. Also rezerging her didn't give her back her powers - after all it was no longer there but instead had been gathered by the hybrids.

Oh wait? She did keep her powers and regained them? So what psionic energy did the hybrids steal?

:sigh:

# ¿ Mar 24, 2024 11:51

DTurtle: Apr 10, 2011

Torchlighter posted:

Psionic energy has always been untethered from individuals.Most of the protoss buildings run off 'psionic energy', they're the principle component of psi shields, and Kerrigan as a human ghost has always been psionic. Her powers weren't because she was a zerg.

Ok, I forgot about the Protoss stuff being a blend of psionic energy and technology.

So that means that Kerrigan had more psionic energy than the entire Protoss race, otherwise "Narud" could have used that to revive Amon.

However:

quote:

As for what happened to her power, the artifact took it, and if they handed the artifact over to moebius controlled by Dr. Narud...

If they took Kerrigans power, why does she still have power? It was taken.

# ¿ Mar 24, 2024 14:19

DTurtle: Apr 10, 2011

Lt. Danger posted:

why does Raynor have a gun

Came to ask this.

Did Kerrigan hand it to him?

In addition, this whole cutscene once again shows that Blizzard really didn't have anyone responsible for continuity and making sure that everything fits together clearly and correctly. The story is so inconsistent with regards to ... everything.

DTurtle fucked around with this message at 10:02 on Apr 13, 2024

# ¿ Apr 13, 2024 09:58

DTurtle: Apr 10, 2011

BisbyWorl posted:

Korhal 2: Death From Above

And now I can take as much time as I want to finish the Destroyer.

And as a bonus, Dehaka joins in too!

Essence missed

So out of nowhere a new undefeatable super weapon is introduced and immediately destroyed.

It would have been much more effective to at the very least actually introduce it in game at the end of the previous mission.

Or, even better, make Kerrigan�s first assault on Korhal FAIL. And therefore be receptive to Zeratul telling her to go to Zerus.

# ¿ Apr 27, 2024 06:02

DTurtle: Apr 10, 2011

PurpleXVI posted:

Perhaps if it had been revealed at an earlier point in the story as the big thing preventing her from just rushing Korhal, and she had to go to Zerus to find some Zerg who weren't part of the hive mind, or... I mean, hell, Zeratul clearly believes she's important and must be aided. Couldn't she just DM him on Swarmcord and ask him to send over a few Dark Templars or something to stab it?

Great minds think alike:

DTurtle posted:

So out of nowhere a new undefeatable super weapon is introduced and immediately destroyed.

It would have been much more effective to at the very least actually introduce it in game at the end of the previous mission.

Or, even better, make Kerrigan�s first assault on Korhal FAIL. And therefore be receptive to Zeratul telling her to go to Zerus.

The entire campaign feels like a first draft of a campaign story, missing all of the hard work of redrafting, refining, reordering, and reworking the missions and the story to make it all coherent and flow together very well.

# ¿ Apr 29, 2024 11:05

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# ¿ May 16, 2024 15:32

DTurtle: Apr 10, 2011

BisbyWorl posted:

Finale
And then Mengsk loving explodes.

RIP Arcturus Mengsk. He just sorta puttered around for two games before getting dealt with so the plot can fully shift to the Hybrid Apocalypse.

Is there a single game/campaign where there isn�t a huge explosion that makes the screen all white?

It feels so extremely overused by Blizzard by now.

BisbyWorl posted:

And so ends part 2 of 4 (and a half) of this LP.

Wait, four?

Are you counting the Nova thing as four? What is the half then?

Also congrats on finishing the campaign. The less said about it, the better I think�

# ¿ May 7, 2024 20:43

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > Let's Play! > Not As Bad As The Last Game - Let's Play Starcraft 2: Legacy of the Void