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kas posted:A huge lol at a bunch of people who gluttonously mass consume products by Hasbro of all companies trying to take the high road on ethical consumption of products. Yes, tell me about all the Hasbro products I consume and have happily paid for. I think you'll find a grand total of... zero.
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Jun 13, 2023 15:31
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PurpleXVI posted:Yes, tell me about all the Hasbro products I consume and have happily paid for. I think you'll find a grand total of... zero. You are not the only poster in this thread, something for which I'm actually grateful for since you constantly try to speak for me as an artist, without actually reflecting any of my views on the subject.
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Jun 13, 2023 15:34
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kas posted:Crimes for thee, but not for me! Someone might commission an artist from that, there is zero chance of someone commissioning an artist from an AI output.
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Jun 13, 2023 15:36
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StratGoatCom posted:Someone might commission an artist from that, there is zero chance of someone commissioning an artist from an AI output. I've absolutely discovered every artist I've ever commissioned from someone posting or retweeting or sharing their art somewhere(of course with attribution or sourcing it). They haven't just entered into my perception ex nihilo in a flash of light.
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Jun 13, 2023 15:39
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PurpleXVI posted:Yes, tell me about all the Hasbro products I consume and have happily paid for. I think you'll find a grand total of... zero. Hey, I respect you, I like stealing stuff too.
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Jun 13, 2023 15:42
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StratGoatCom posted:Someone might commission an artist from that, there is zero chance of someone commissioning an artist from an AI output. If you want to use this logic to justify your actions based on something that 'might' happen in your hypothetical scenario, then you have to account for the fact that it is also a possibility that someone sees an AI output they like the general idea of, and takes it to an artist to commission a similar work in that artist's style or interpretation. Neither is basically ever going to happen though, so stop kidding yourself here.
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Jun 13, 2023 15:43
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I also wish to restate for the record that I too have no intention of trying to test those boundaries, and I am extremely unlikely to post any ai content to SA to begin with. I've basically never posted my regular commissions art because it's vtubers reimagined as dnd characters and I don't know if that's okay in TG.  StratGoatCom posted:Someone might commission an artist from that, there is zero chance of someone commissioning an artist from an AI output. This isn't true. It's basically the sole use case I've considered for my projects.
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Jun 13, 2023 15:45
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Vtubers as D&D characters sounds cute, although I guess it’s tainted by association with that terrible ADTRW thread, sadly.
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Jun 13, 2023 15:46
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kas posted:If you want to use this logic to justify your actions based on something that 'might' happen in your hypothetical scenario, then you have to account for the fact that it is also a possibility that someone sees an AI output they like the general idea of, and takes it to an artist to commission a similar work in that artist's style or interpretation. lmao AI dorks still with the wild hypotheticals and ignoring what people actually post. Go on, post the one where you're a "new kind of artist" for typing a prompt into a bar and having something else do all the work, that one's my favourite for a laugh.
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Jun 13, 2023 15:47
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Alright. I'm here to talk about the implied "no low-effort AI chat outside the AI thread" rule. Specially, how it interacts with this recent probation, which I'm going to repost in its entirety below.Fuzz posted:https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2023/06/chatgpt-takes-the-pulpit-ai-leads-experimental-church-service-in-germany/ My point is that this is not a low-effort AI joke, it's a low-effort current events joke which happens to involve AI. It's Fuzz going "this involves god and the machine, that's like the God Machine, ha ha". You need to make multiple big leaps in logic to reach any of the aspects of AI that TG has been arguing about for the past week. It is, quite frankly, orthogonal to any issue these rules are built for. What I'm saying is, if this post is going to probation-worthy outside of the period immediately after the rules change when everyone is excessively worried about enforcing them, just make the rule "do not mention real AI at all in TG outside the designated thread" and save everyone some time.
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Jun 13, 2023 16:00
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PurpleXVI posted:lmao I'm not an AI artist. The fact you have already made this caricature of me in your head of what and who you think I am and what I do to try and dunk on me is absolutely not becoming of someone who is supposed to be part of the moderation staff. I have paid off 7 years of student debt (three years of that being in graphic design), a credit card and two cars with my art. Most of that has been, through a twist of luck, through commercial pixel art and fine painting for private buyers, though a substantial portion was also in branding, advertising, and more general commission. These days, I mostly now take small local business branding and advertising contracts and consult with local bands in the local music scene for design of posters, flyers and album covers for supplemental income as I work another job that pays more than the art did. With that background, I'm saying right now: AI does not hinder or diminish either my ability nor my desire to create art. The level of theft you ascribe to it is arbitrary and mercurial, moving to suit whatever tortured logic you need to use in the moment to justify why it 'counts' and other things you do don't, and shows no self-reflection on the hundreds of other instances of theft and worker exploitation you engage in every day merely by virtue of existing in a first world country. AI art generators, which undoubtedly contains instances of works I've created within their datasets, are no more stealing from me than someone copying a design element of my work is, and the panic seems to entirely be that it's not a human being doing it, which would somehow make it better. It is telling that for all the outrage in here, there has been a long-established thread in the creative convention subforum for AI art - the forum that, presumably, actual professional and up-and-coming artists post in, and yet there is no problem or outrage with it there and none of the posters outside of it give a poo poo.
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Jun 13, 2023 16:03
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Lurks With Wolves posted:just make the rule "do not mention real AI at all in TG outside the designated thread" Agreed For real though, that's a slap on the wrist sixer for just drive by posting "see its just like the thing" without anything else to say
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Jun 13, 2023 16:04
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kas posted:
It's funny that you're ignoring the other artist who posted about how it had literally cost him commissions and paying work. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 13, 2023 16:07
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PurpleXVI posted:blah blah blah I'm a dork I honestly don't know why I expected any better. Oh well, carry on then I guess. :/
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Jun 13, 2023 16:10
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Lurks With Wolves posted:Alright. I'm here to talk about the implied "no low-effort AI chat outside the AI thread" rule. Specially, how it interacts with this recent probation, which I'm going to repost in its entirety below. Yeah this looks like a bad probe. It’s perfectly relevant to the Chronicles of Darkness, Fuzz is pointing out real world news that makes an excellent hook for a game. (He’s referencing the God-Machine, the Gnostic uncaring computer that runs all of existence.)
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Jun 13, 2023 16:10
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He's referencing it but not doing much else with it
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Jun 13, 2023 16:14
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Lurks With Wolves posted:Alright. I'm here to talk about the implied "no low-effort AI chat outside the AI thread" rule. Specially, how it interacts with this recent probation, which I'm going to repost in its entirety below.
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Jun 13, 2023 16:14
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Ominous Jazz posted:He's referencing it but not doing much else with it The point is that it’s an utterly normal post to be making. Like if you posted about Elon Musk’s computer brain implants thing in a cyberpunk thread.
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Jun 13, 2023 16:15
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Perhaps no single artist speaks for all artists, as there are "real" artists on both sides of the debate, and we can't come to a resolution just on who happens to yell the loudest as there is an unresolvable contention between members of the affected group.
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Jun 13, 2023 16:17
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It’s a bad probe but mostly because Fuzz shouldn’t have gotten a chance to make that post because they should have copped way more than 24 hours for comparing not liking AI to the Holocaust.
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Jun 13, 2023 16:17
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I thought you guys should hear from a pro-AI for personal use guy who thinks that tool-assisted/generated art should be restricted to a thread and discussion of image/text generation should be restricted to a thread. My general thinking is this: 1) This is a topic that is as contentious as anything I've seen. It simply cannot be discussed in a civil manner. In CineD they did a Containment Zone thread for a specific director and it really did work out well. Eventually everyone had some distance from the subject and things evolve and the people who wanted to actually discuss stuff instead of being berated had somewhere to go. There's no longer a containment zone thread and it's fine. 2) There really is a lot of low-grade AI poo poo and people discover these tools and post absolute rot, Babby's First AI Image, ChatGPT Brain Droppings #122949837, nobody cares. 3) Whatever decision is made today can be re-evaluated in the future. I simply cannot see this fever pitch of emotion sustaining itself in the face of reality for 5 years. And hey, it's possible that legal decisions might guide moderation...if AI is banned/restricted, then it's pretty obvious what the mods need to do.
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Jun 13, 2023 16:18
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Nessus posted:Yes, if that is the actual rule, say it out loud. If it was just mediocre modding then so it goes. And no shame to Antivehicular or anything, I don't blame anyone for being gunshy about AI posting after all of this poo poo. (Look at how much this thread sucks already  ) But if that probation ends up setting a precedent it's going to be really dumb, so I'm mentioning it now.EDIT VVV: I mean, yeah, you want more than that. But we aren't probating people for making profoundly mediocre posts. Lurks With Wolves fucked around with this message at 16:21 on Jun 13, 2023 |
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Jun 13, 2023 16:18
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Arivia posted:The point is that it’s an utterly normal post to be making. Like if you posted about Elon Musk’s computer brain implants thing in a cyberpunk thread. Yeah but if they posted that as well you would want more than just here is a thing because otherwise anytime a tomb or a cool sword is found I'd post it in the dnd thread and go "just like the tomb of hotdogs!!" Edit: my phone corrected horrors to hotdogs and I don't want to change it
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Jun 13, 2023 16:18
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Raenir Salazar posted:Perhaps no single artist speaks for all artists, as there are "real" artists on both sides of the debate, and we can't come to a resolution just on who happens to yell the loudest as there is an unresolvable contention between members of the affected group. Are you really looking at an artist in the previous incarnation of this thread going "this has noticeably, materially cost me commissions and working relationships" and going but maybe the truth is somewhere in the middle?
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Jun 13, 2023 16:20
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I always thought that on SA joke posts get some leeway, maybe in this case the joke wasn't obvious? That is something that I think I saw brought up above, there are some ttrpgs, and presumably some threads, where talking about ai makes sense outside of the ai chat thread. Perhaps these threads could be marked so it's clear to moderators that some light discussion as it directly relates to the game and subject matter is fine as it isn't really like ai chat and isnt likely to start a derail.
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Jun 13, 2023 16:22
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:I simply cannot see this fever pitch of emotion sustaining itself in the face of reality for 5 years. I think that if y'all keep talking in this patronizing way for five years, then it might well manage it. I think a lot of folks might be willing to be slightly more civil about the topic if, once again, we didn't get the scornful, crypto-bro adjacent mutterings about "luddites!" and "in a few years everything will change! we'll disrupt the art industry!"
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Jun 13, 2023 16:23
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Mr. Maltose posted:It’s a bad probe but mostly because Fuzz shouldn’t have gotten a chance to make that post because they should have copped way more than 24 hours for comparing not liking AI to the Holocaust.
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Jun 13, 2023 16:28
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Lurks With Wolves posted:And no shame to Antivehicular or anything, I don't blame anyone for being gunshy about AI posting after all of this poo poo. (Look at how much this thread sucks already
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Jun 13, 2023 16:29
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Lurks With Wolves posted:EDIT VVV: I mean, yeah, you want more than that. But we aren't probating people for making profoundly mediocre posts. Why not Post mid get 6 seems right
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Jun 13, 2023 16:33
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Ominous Jazz posted:Why not
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Jun 13, 2023 16:34
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Nessus posted:A dangerous precedent Yeah I don't think anybody wants this place to be like d&d
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Jun 13, 2023 16:38
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PurpleXVI posted:I think that if y'all keep talking in this patronizing way for five years, then it might well manage it. I think a lot of folks might be willing to be slightly more civil about the topic if, once again, we didn't get the scornful, crypto-bro adjacent mutterings about "luddites!" and "in a few years everything will change! we'll disrupt the art industry!" I'm not patronizing you at all. I don't think you're a luddite, I think you're self-interested. About 15 years ago the Internet granted a whole bunch of artists a revenue stream and now it's going to pair it down for a lot of them just as quickly. It does, in fact, suck.
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Jun 13, 2023 16:42
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Ominous Jazz posted:Yeah I don't think anybody wants this place to be like d&d
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Jun 13, 2023 16:55
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:I'm not patronizing you at all. I don't think you're a luddite, I think you're self-interested. About 15 years ago the Internet granted a whole bunch of artists a revenue stream and now it's going to pair it down for a lot of them just as quickly. It does, in fact, suck. I think you overestimate the bubble, and underestimate the chances of the law and countertraining and folks just loving hating this crap kicking these folk's poo poo in.
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Jun 13, 2023 16:57
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Terrible Opinions posted:Raenir Salazar is already posting here I got confused by the initials and now I'm stuck in a portable hole. 
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Jun 13, 2023 16:59
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:I'm not patronizing you at all. I don't think you're a luddite, I think you're self-interested. About 15 years ago the Internet granted a whole bunch of artists a revenue stream and now it's going to pair it down for a lot of them just as quickly. It does, in fact, suck. I'm not self-interested, I don't create anything I'd call art(or that anyone would want more of enough to train a neural net on it, anyway), but I know enough artists who make a living off of their work and who have it rough enough as it is, and I'm concerned for them and pissed that people are callously happy to take away their livelihood.
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Jun 13, 2023 17:01
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I try to live by a policy of "don't feed the trolls," but silence is taken as acceptance, so I'm just going to post about this once. For the mods:  To clarify, is everyone in TG allowed to post like this? Am I also permitted to follow my posting enemies around and call them whatever schoolyard taunt I think will get under their skin at recess, or is that just for PurpleXVI? For everyone else: There's a posting strategy being employed here of baiting you into making effortposts and then giving you a dismissive one-liner reply. Ya'll have been around the forums long enough to know this pattern, don't engage with it. You can't actually convince someone who disagrees with you of anything over the internet, so don't bother. Direct yourselves to the mods and admins who are actually responsible for the rules. Making you waste time and energy is the goal, so just don't do it.
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Jun 13, 2023 18:46
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHIBgv8uOpE More seriously, effort does not mean quality and can often be used to waste your time. StratGoatCom fucked around with this message at 18:52 on Jun 13, 2023 |
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Jun 13, 2023 18:49
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Kestral posted:I try to live by a policy of "don't feed the trolls," but silence is taken as acceptance, so I'm just going to post about this once. For the mods:  has its name.
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Jun 13, 2023 19:01
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Kestral posted:I try to live by a policy of "don't feed the trolls," but In their defense the big long effort posts have largely been the same arguments that were made in the previous threads except more bitter Edit: I don't think either of them are forums stalking but just slap fighting in this thread Ominous Jazz fucked around with this message at 19:15 on Jun 13, 2023 |
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Jun 13, 2023 19:06
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