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ah christ I have a plumber coming in an hour to quote me a water heater because we've had no hot water for two days, a foster cat getting picked up at the same time, and I'm busy with work too but I've read through the thread and the reports queue and my PMs and I will follow up with everything as soon as I have time. I am not trying to whine for sympathy but I want you guys to know that I'm pretty stressed right now and so I'm trying not to make hasty stupid decisions. Yes yes I know "all your decisions are stupid, Leper" thanks you can skip that and we'll take it as read. Please just file reports Kestral, but in this case don't because those posts are already reported, but no just straight up "you're a dork" is not allowed although that's a pretty mild epithet, purple complained earlier about the label "luddite" as an insult not being probed, this is some low-tier stuff but nevertheless there's a rule for this thread so how about knock that poo poo off you know, this petty sniping accomplishes nothing but making GBS threads up the thread. As far as I can tell there is one remaining issue, on this topic, which is the "low effort" phrasing/confusion about what posts about AI are allowed, I think we'll clear that up today, and otherwise all the ongoing AI stuff debating is fruitless because we're going to try this policy for a while and we still absolutely are not going to resolve the arguments already made ad nauseum so please just stop making the AI-is-bad vs. no you don't understand AI arguments thank you. If you are still unclear about the rules that's fair to discuss. Otherwise kindly stop trying to get in your pot shots.
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Jun 13, 2023 19:12
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Leperflesh posted:ah christ Heya, hopefully your plumbing experience is better than mine.  They spread dust and broken bits of drywall all over my kitchen.  If it helps I actually believe the "low effort" question was thoroughly settled by Antivehicular here: Antivehicular posted:Okay, now that I'm not at work and have a little bit of brain: what I was trying to describe by acceptable "high-effort" is stuff that is clearly mostly human creative effort with small AI elements, like the example posted in the previous thread of mostly human-made Blood Bowl maps that contained an AI-generated team logo. This is more or less "if you're trying in good faith and not being obnoxious, we're not going to check if every pixel was artisanally rendered." If the content is all or primarily AI-generated, it shouldn't leave the AI thread even if it's high-effort or high-quality. Or at least is thoroughly answers my questions from before earlier in the thread. The actual remaining question is more "Are jokes or non-controversial AI discussion allowed in threads where they would be appropriate"? See Nessus's post here: Nessus posted:I hope that there will not be a policy of slapping probations on on topic conversations over news or inspirational materials touching on LLMs etc. a recent example of what I mean is in the World of Darkness thread, but this could easily impact things like the threads on Shadowrun or Cyberpunk. And also are Joke posts allowed: Lurks With Wolves posted:Alright. I'm here to talk about the implied "no low-effort AI chat outside the AI thread" rule. Specially, how it interacts with this recent probation, which I'm going to repost in its entirety below.
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Jun 13, 2023 19:20
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Kestral posted:For everyone else: There's a posting strategy being employed here of baiting you into making effortposts and then giving you a dismissive one-liner reply. Ya'll have been around the forums long enough to know this pattern, don't engage with it. You can't actually convince someone who disagrees with you of anything over the internet, so don't bother. Direct yourselves to the mods and admins who are actually responsible for the rules. Making you waste time and energy is the goal, so just don't do it. Mate, thanks, but I like to post that's why I'm here. I'm not worried about wasting time and effort while posting on SA and neither should anyone else The feedback thread is the place for big effort opinion rants imo If someone wants to go "lol dork" in response they can do, it's not exactly a punishing counter argument
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Jun 13, 2023 20:22
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I’m assuming talking about AI in the sense of fictional computers like Wintermute and HAL 9000 is fine. Even if you’re discussing how Arasaka made ChatGPT-9 out of puppy brains and ChatGPT-10 misses it’s parent, Delamain.
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Jun 13, 2023 20:56
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yes, you can refer to Friend Computer without a probation this some of that edge case stuff where I desperately hope common sense can prevail
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Jun 13, 2023 21:02
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Leperflesh posted:yes, you can refer to Friend Computer without a probation
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Jun 13, 2023 21:12
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Kestral posted:I try to live by a policy of "don't feed the trolls," but silence is taken as acceptance, so I'm just going to post about this once. For the mods: The entire AI thread in TG is currently going "lol those IDIOT MORON LUDDITES in the feedback thread suck poo poo" but you don't see me being a tattletale.
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Jun 13, 2023 21:22
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ravenkult posted:The entire AI thread in TG is currently going "lol those IDIOT MORON LUDDITES in the feedback thread suck poo poo" but you don't see me being a tattletale. They're a Protected Class so I'm afraid nothing to be done. 
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Jun 13, 2023 21:33
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ravenkult posted:The entire AI thread in TG is currently going "lol those IDIOT MORON LUDDITES in the feedback thread suck poo poo" but you don't see me being a tattletale. I took a look to see what you're talking about, but the past page or so seems fine...?
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Jun 13, 2023 21:41
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ravenkult posted:The entire AI thread in TG is currently going "lol those IDIOT MORON LUDDITES in the feedback thread suck poo poo" but you don't see me being a tattletale. This is nonsense.
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Jun 13, 2023 21:50
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I must admit there has been some posting in this thread in the past few days that it has taken me a serious amount of willpower not to reply to.
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Jun 13, 2023 22:01
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It is funny to see every weird little subculture thread on SA gets defensive in the same way.
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Jun 13, 2023 22:36
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Lol this is getting weird now, there aren't any such posts. If you search luddite you can even see nobody has called anyone it in the AI thread for the entire drama. It's really strange, even leper is saying that the personal attacks, "using the label luddite as an insult", are coming from both sides but, after rigorous analysis, there really is only one side constantly going for personal attacks. Even last thread nobody ever got called a luddite, seriously, go ctrl F that one too. the anti-AI crew use it constantly, accusing others of using the term but me and other handsome posters point out that the luddites were against industrial exploitation not technology and wanted to use the new looms themselves. Somebody initially called the anti AI posters "bad faith neckbeards" in response to lepers initial post in the AI thread, but that was literally the first post about this whole drama meltdown in the AI thread. That's the only direct personal attack I can find whereas we are constantly being subjected to brutal "dork" attacks!!!
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Jun 13, 2023 22:39
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why would people be calling you "dorks" is midjourney especially good at hallucinating whale penises or something
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Jun 13, 2023 22:47
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Communist Thoughts posted:Lol this is getting weird now, there aren't any such posts. If you search luddite you can even see nobody has called anyone it in the AI thread for the entire drama. Raenir Salazar posted:I feel like it'd be ideal to separate the more obnoxious opinions or feelings about techbros from the heart of the argument, and also ideal to also not assume everyone who has ethical legitimate concerns is a luddite irrationally angry about a new technology. Its just reads like two sides entering into two separate boxing matches with their own scarecrows where one has a paper saying ai techbros as a face and the other is a luddite. Megazver posted:Why yes, I would love to get dogpiled by a bunch of hostile, bad faith neckbeards who don't actually understand what they're having a moral panic about, but are aggressive enough about it that they try to muscle over the forum rules to screw with anyone who disagrees about this contentious issue instead of having polite discussion or agreeing to disagree. BrainDance posted:Lets do this with all mediums next. Lets have a thread where I misinterpret all digital art as just pressing buttons in photoshop and complain about it being derivative, I'll go pick out random people posting their work and talk about how lovely it is and how they're just copying preestablished fantasy tropes. Communist Thoughts posted:LOL did you read the thread? It's a thread for people who are fanatically against using AI generators for anything and thinks it's immoral.
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Jun 13, 2023 22:57
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Well, yes, that's how you come off. If multiple people describe your behavior in similar unflattering manner, it might just be because that's what it looks like to other people.
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Jun 13, 2023 23:02
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I was specifically suggesting people on the pro-AI side *not* to assume or call anyone Luddites!  E to add: also I think it's a little reductive to say I am pro AI, I personally merely feel I am taking a nuanced utilitarian position. Raenir Salazar fucked around with this message at 23:06 on Jun 13, 2023 |
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Jun 13, 2023 23:03
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Raenir Salazar posted:E to add: also I think it's a little reductive to say I am pro AI, I personally merely feel I am taking a nuanced utilitarian position.
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Jun 13, 2023 23:09
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Megazver posted:Well, yes, that's how you come off. If multiple people describe your behavior in similar unflattering manner, it might just be because that's what it looks like to other people. How do you think you come off lol
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Jun 13, 2023 23:21
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Quit the sniping. This issue has been thoroughly canvassed, leper and anti v have put together an approach that takes painstaking efforts to recognize all the sides, and now we can give it some time, please.
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Jun 13, 2023 23:30
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Ominous Jazz posted:How do you think you come off lol Oooh, I know this one! Like they don't give a poo poo about the tangible harm of their actions as long as they get to keep their toy. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 13, 2023 23:32
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Maybe it’d be smarter to let this lie, but in the interests of redirecting from an unproductive discussion, I wanted to sketch out a set of circumstances which, IMO, would justify lifting the restriction and allowing AI talk more generally. And it’s based on chess-playing “AI.” I’m old enough to recall the first stage. Computer chess meant either very stupid moves, or somewhat stupid moves that took an hour to play. Casual chess players could still lose but grandmasters had nothing to worry about. Stage two saw chess programs massively improved. A world champion might or might not be able to beat it, and most development for regular play involved lowering the program’s skill so intermediate or worse players had a chance to win. Stage three, which is current, saw chess AI massively outstrip human players. Grandmasters might be able to draw the best programs some of the time, but they are rated around a thousand points higher than the best humans and definitely don’t take hours to play. I want to suggest that the tipping point isn’t being able to outplay humans, it is that human beings are now looking to chess programs to teach them how to play better chess. Grandmasters analyze their games using chess AI (as can regular players), and some newer grandmasters are trying to learn to “play like an engine.” At the same time, the engines can still be “surprised” by human moves, and because the key to winning human vs human chess has to do with many factors in addition to playing the best moves (dealing with nerves, recovering from inaccurate play, etc), the game cannot be considered “solved”. These other forms of AI are, I think, somewhere between stage one and stage two. They’re being hyped as stage two. I have seen no AI output within my own area of expertise (writing) which I could use to teach anyone good habits; usually the writing, when at essay length, is somewhere in the D to F range, though the grammar and diction are head and shoulders above previous programs. It sounds superficially well-written, but there’s usually very little underneath and overwhelmingly the AI cannot perform insightful analysis or even sustain a consistent argument across paragraphs. I don’t know where the art AI is; it might be useful in teaching techniques to digital artists, but I doubt an AI that has no relation to the physical world is going to develop a new brushstroke. At stage three, restricting AI discussion becomes impossible: you couldn’t sustain the Chess thread here if you banned any mention or usage of Stockfish or other chess programs and their game analysis. I tentatively suggest using similar guidelines to consider when the current policy should be loosened, but I’d be curious to hear other opinions.
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Jun 14, 2023 01:15
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Narsham posted:Maybe it’d be smarter to let this lie, but in the interests of redirecting from an unproductive discussion, I wanted to sketch out a set of circumstances which, IMO, would justify lifting the restriction and allowing AI talk more generally. And it’s based on chess-playing “AI.” didn't read (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 14, 2023 01:32
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Chess AI discussion is fine, IMHO. Obviously this is just my call and not Binding Forums Policy(tm), but I think discussion of AI learning involving playing strategy games (particularly for chess, where it's a pretty important cultural and historical issue) is perfectly reasonable, barring it proving to be a poison-pill topic.
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Jun 14, 2023 05:03
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Also, if people are using the AI thread to mock their Forums Enemies, report that poo poo
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Jun 14, 2023 05:05
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yeah stockfish is basically an essential part of chess conversations today, and it's trained on the history of chess games which are basically all published and freely accessible anyway, nobody in the chess thread is gonna have an issue with it
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Jun 14, 2023 05:08
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Terrible Opinions posted:You can see how all of these words are building the same characterization. ravenkult was not literally saying "they're using the bad word over and over again" but the constant assurance that any desire to see less ai art must be motivated by some sort of over the top irrational emotion. Fixating on the word is obviously not the point. No one (as far as I know) cares about anyone wanting to not see AI art. Which is why no one (who does AI art, at least) has any big problem with the new rules and they're just here looking for clarification. My post specifically was from what I was getting at actually happening. A person posted some stuff in the AI thread about some stuff they had been toying with in one of their favorite fantasy-scifi settings. Entirely just an "I like this setting and I think this is neat" thing. They then got used in another thread as fodder for people to absolutely poo poo on their work, about how soulless and horrible it was (and how it is representative of the medium as a whole.) For any other medium that would be seen as a lovely thing to do. So, Christ, yes? It is very hard to be motivated to post about AI stuff outside of AI spaces, because it doesn't matter what you're doing or even what your argument is there is an extremely vocal minority (and that minority isn't just "artists") that we can even see here that will come at you with this "you're wrong, this is the worst thing ever, and the reason it is is because I say it is." Most of would never have any desire to do so anyway regardless, this whole thing started from one person in a very general topic mentioning it once. It happens every time, no one is surprised by this. Isn't that what you want? For us to post in the AI threads and not go talking about it in other places?
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Jun 14, 2023 06:05
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Personally, I am Very Tired of the current "AI" boom--quotes used because I think the name has connotations that current tech absolutely does not live up to. It's the next technology buzzword, just like "blockchain" and "NFT" before it. The sort of thing that underqualified executives latch onto and push so that they can look like they're making bold and intelligent changes. And when they make those pushes, it's inevitably at the costing of working people--it's a tool to replace people. Yes, it can make some jobs easier, but more than that, it's going to be used to cut. It would be one thing if the technology was at a place where this was viable. Not great, obviously--people would still be losing their jobs, after all, but there'd be a certain level of impressiveness to it. But the technology isn't there yet. So what we get is an endless stream of content that's just... mediocre. It can be technically impressive, yes, with details that seem like they would be a pain in the rear end to draw--but to me, at least, it never really adds up to anything--the composition tends to be very poor, and because the algorithm doesn't actually have any kind of understanding of what it's doing, it will so, so often be wrong in details, and I don't mean "hosed up hands" by that, though I have a hard time pinning it down. But it's very easy to get that level of empty mediocrity, and very andfast, so content feeds get absolutely flooded with it--visual and written works alike. And this gets pointed to as the inevitable future that should be accepted--mediocre work that's "good enough", just because it's easy, fast, and free. That this is what we're going to replace dedicated creatives with--and I'm not saying that anyone here is actually advocating that, but weary as I am, that's what all the "AI" cheerleading feels like. Accept this thing that's kind of vaguely like what you were imagining, because it's free. Don't bother trying to do better. I say all of this having used AI art in a game in the past for some scene-setting--I had a turnaround time that was too short to go to an artist for, and image searches weren't getting me anywhere. What AI turned out was kind of nonsense, but it was, in the circumstances, Good Enough. And I don't think that was like, an inherently immoral act or something. It was Fine. But it's not something that would be worthy of a post to show off. And to me, posts that are just showing off AI art, while I'm sure they're neat to the person posting them, just feels like more of that Mediocre Content Deluge, and I suspect feels that way to other people as well. I would rather look at one human-made piece made with care and intent than a dozen generated images, because the latter is only ever going to be Passable at best.
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Jun 14, 2023 20:48
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I believe your post parallels a few others, from the previous thread etc., and our new rules should cover it. I think we can hopefully end debate on these issues, for now.
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Jun 14, 2023 23:13
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Yeah, please stop posting thoughts on AI in here. We're going to be looking specifically at the effects on community discussion based on the new rules.
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Jun 15, 2023 00:44
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Hey can one of you guys ban the racist guy who popped up in the Magic thread, thanks
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Jul 2, 2023 15:10
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Fajita Queen posted:Hey can one of you guys ban the racist guy who popped up in the Magic thread, thanks That's not a thread I IK or even read but I don't think anyone would object. Thanks. Edit - all I can personally give are 6ers, so I did. I'm requesting more. dwarf74 fucked around with this message at 15:29 on Jul 2, 2023 |
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Jul 2, 2023 15:26
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Thank you 
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Jul 2, 2023 16:22
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dwarf74 posted:That's not a thread I IK or even read but I don't think anyone would object. Thanks. 
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Jul 2, 2023 18:31
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Mods are on it. Something hefty will be forthcoming after we decide exactly how hefty.
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Jul 2, 2023 19:55
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The racist has been permabanned.
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Jul 2, 2023 23:13
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Leperflesh posted:The racist has been permabanned. Thanks for bringing it to our attention, folks.
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Jul 2, 2023 23:15
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Leperflesh posted:The racist has been permabanned. So, here's the question, relevant because it got picked up in SAD so I don't know if this was TG mods or the admin who decided it was worth a perma. (I know only admins can actually enact it.) Is this going to be what we can expect going forward? Can we expect permas for people who say sexist things, for instance? In the past, we haven't been able to rely on that level of support.
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Jul 2, 2023 23:19
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Usually as a procedural matter a permaban discussion takes place between admins, with mods weighing in if it's relevant to their forum or they have something to contribute. But in this case before we had such a conversation Fluffdaddy looked at the report, the poster's priors, etc. and appears to have made an executive decision quickly to approve a permaban request that Dwarf put through. Note that this was not the first offense for this poster, and digging through both previous rap sheet entries and posts that didn't get reported led to a pretty clear conclusion, so I'm not saying the "should we perma this person" process was needed in this case. Admins have the power to issue permabans unilaterally and occasionally they do so. There is very little "standard" about permabans because they're done on a case-by-case basis and are (and should be) rare. Context, benefit of the doubt where deserved, prior offenses, information from PMs, etc. all can matter. e. no, there is no world in which the SA admins ban or permaban a poster for liking Kingdom Death: Monster. Since that's obviously what you're referring to.
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Jul 2, 2023 23:50
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Leperflesh posted:e. no, there is no world in which the SA admins ban or permaban a poster for liking Kingdom Death: Monster. Since that's obviously what you're referring to. lol
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Jul 2, 2023 23:56
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