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Please use this thread to post your suggestions and provide feedback on Trad Games and The Game Room! This is the place to discuss rules, moderation, fun things and bad things and neutral things happening in our community, identify problems and suggest solutions. Moderators may also use this thread from time to time to solicit feedback on rules changes and other ideas for the forum. You can post here anonymously or provide private feedback by PMing your comment to a mod or admin, who will keep your identity in confidence per your request and repost your comments on request. Do not attack other posters here. This thread is not a substitute for using the report function. Please visit SAD for general SA-wide problems or as an alternative if you are unsatisfied with the results you get here or prefer to discuss things with the greater SA community. Contact the admins if there's a serious problem that needs immediate attention or requires bypassing the mod team. Here is the previous TG/TGR feedback thread.
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Jun 12, 2023 22:36
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| # ¿ May 15, 2024 16:26 |
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The last several pages of the previous thread were a heated debate about rules for posting AI-generated text and images in TG. Over 50 goons expressed some kind of opinion on what to do. Based on that discussion, TG moderators have decided to do the following:
I know that some of these decisions will be unsatisfactory to a lot of posters. This represents an unhappy compromise because we are convinced that it is the least-worst solution for now. This is not set in stone, and if things don't work, we can revisit the issues, but please give things time to settle out. Leperflesh fucked around with this message at 23:26 on Jun 12, 2023 |
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Jun 12, 2023 22:54
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Raenir Salazar posted:This means high effort posts as deemed by the mods would be fine? So as an example if I post like a 500 (hand typed) word Let's Play about how a session went, but happened to include some AI generated images for portraits, but say some hand drawn maps together; this would probably be fine? We're going to have to see how that falls out, really. It's basically impossible to police an absolute ban, and we definitely do not need volunteer forum monitors sweeping through every thread (especially game threads in TGR) looking for any sign of the illegal AI. At the same time, if you're posing 20 generated character portraits in your D&D game writeup in the D&D thread, people are going to notice and we're going to get one of those derails if we're not responsive to the report. It's a judgement call. The safe thing for you to do is to keep your AI stuff in the AI thread. Your writeup about your D&D game doesn't actually need to include your character portraits. If we're getting five reports a week because people keep trying to salt posts with AI stuff, then we may have to tighten down a rule, we'll see. Low effort "hey look at this cool pic" posts will definitely get reported and we'll act on those reports. What I would like to see right now is good-faith attempts to follow the rules with a recognition that not antagonizing your posting enemies is the best way to coexist. Leperflesh fucked around with this message at 23:52 on Jun 12, 2023 |
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Jun 12, 2023 23:49
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Fajita Queen posted:Allowing it at all still implicitly encourages people to use those tools which are run entirely off of stolen assets and are used as justification to oppress workers. We have had this debate, at length, this point was made repeatedly, and we have arrived at the compromise we're at.
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Jun 12, 2023 23:51
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Fajita Queen posted:When something is bad you don't compromise with it. The community does not have a consensus that this is as bad as you feel it is, so Anti and I do not feel we should enforce that specific uncompromising viewpoint. Magnetic North posted:I'm personally medium-okay with the compromise, but the addendum of allowing it outside of the designated thread seems specifically engineered to make this mod action as unsatisfying as possible to as many goons as possible. We're trying to be realistic and explicit about what we think we can do, and to express intent via the rules. Our intent is not to shame people and push them into a quarantine: it's to avoid derails and extended intractable slapfights. So we are disallowing the types of posts we think cause those derails and slapfights, making sure the segment of the community that wants to talk about AI stuff has a place to do that where it's not in the faces of the people who don't want to see it, and leaving room for mod discretion because there will surely be borderline/marginal posts.
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Jun 13, 2023 00:08
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That's the general rule for feedback threads, and was present in the OP of the previous thread, long before the AI stuff came up.
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Jun 13, 2023 00:12
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Magnetic North posted:When I say this next paragraph, I need you to understand I am not saying this as someone who has gone on record against you. This is simply as a goon. I would say this to any mod who made similar arguments. there have been, and will continue to be, low-key uses of AI art and text that nobody would notice unless someone explicitly pointed it out. If someone is running a game in TGR and one of the PCs in that game generated their character portrait that is appearing on one token, that is not the level of problem that we think we can realistically deal with, if anyone even notices. But "AI talk" goes in the AI thread. Raenir Salazar posted:I hope this is kept with fairness in mind, like I feel like the intent here should be to be open in their use of AI; for example suppose I sketch a character or 3D model the base of the character myself, but then I use AI to finish the render which I use in my NPC portrait. I'd think the intent is to be open about this and mention as part of the larger post, "Yeah I used some AI to help me with part of this output." Especially even if AI is only a small tiny part of the process, and I mention it to be transparent but in a non-confrontational way; if someone reacts excessively negatively to it I hope the mods take context into consideration and don't treat this as the AI user disturbing the peace when they checked every box and did what could to act in good faith. No, I don't think that would fly, at least not today. Explicitly calling out in an otherwise unrelated post that you used AI is going to highlight that and invite a derail/fight. If you want to talk about how you used AI to help you generate a character portrait, you should do that in the AI thread. Most of the people outside that thread do not care or want to hear about how you did that. It would be nice if people could have a nonconfrontational conversation like the one you described, but I think the last three days have shown that's less likely than a fight, reports, and bad feelings all around.
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Jun 13, 2023 00:33
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Like guys I know we are all game nerds and so we want to read some rules and then immediately, reflexively theorycraft them to death. But can we not? If you have a specific post you want to make, and you don't know if it's OK, ask me or Anti. If you see a post you think isn't OK, report it. If we run with these rules for a bit and everyone is confused and chaos reigns, we'll figure it out.
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Jun 13, 2023 00:35
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Raenir Salazar posted:So, to be clear, if the post is "high effort" (lets assume for the sake of the argument that some hypothetical post is high effort), and happens to use AI in the process somewhere; the post is fine as long as it doesn't mention AI was used? Lets also assume that it's probable that the use of AI is undetectable with a passing glance. Like this is more theorycrafting. If it's genuinely undetectable, nobody would report it, right? If a mod can't even tell, how could that mod act on it? I'm sure you'd be honest if I asked you, but a rule that hinges on honest confessions wouldn't work too well. Are you trying to get me to help you figure out how to sneak AI content into posts, so you can prove to everyone that it's good, actually? Please don't do that either.
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Jun 13, 2023 00:53
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Magnetic North posted:Fundamentally, that is not "AI Talk." I think you're mixing your messages here. There are two issues here: "AI Itself" which is impressive and accessible but threatening to cause labor issues and "AI Talk" which is the currently intractable debate between techno-optimists and creatives. It is the latter that is corrosive and causing issues for the forum. An "AI Talk" ban is not necessarily a ban on any AI content in TG. It could be, but it doesn't have to be. A containment zone is one way to hem in the "AI Talk" problem pretty straightforwardly but obviously not the "AI Itself" problem. If I follow what you're saying here, and I'm not totally sure I do: the rule is indeed intended to move all AI Talk to the AI thread or out of TG, but it also recognizes that actual AI Itself in posts can trigger AI Talk because people who hate it see it and want to yell at it. When you asked Magnetic North posted:What do you think is 'unrealistic' about banning AI talk in TG? I misunderstood and thought you were referring also to like, edge cases of AI Itself like the character token example, because we are banning AI talk in TG outside of the AI thread and that's not unrealistic. Is that not clear in the new rules? I meant for it to be clear. e. it's an excluded bit, you're right. I've updated the rule. Old: "If you are excited about the stuff you're generating with tools like these or you want to learn about them, you can post about them in the AI for TG thread. We are rebooting that thread, I'll update this post to link to it as soon as it's up. That is not a thread to go trolling in. If you hate AI stuff, just stay out of that thread please." New: "If you are excited about the stuff you're generating with tools like these or you want to learn about them, you can post about them in the AI for TG thread. We are rebooting that thread, I'll update this post to link to it as soon as it's up. That is not a thread to go trolling in. If you hate AI stuff, just stay out of that thread please. That is the only thread where you should post chat about AI tools and their use in TG. "
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Jun 13, 2023 01:01
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It is a topical thread for AI chat and images and posts, and a recognition that AI chat anywhere else is likely to cause a derail or fight, plus an understanding that there might be gray areas we won't be able to fairly adjudicate and you can and should just not try too god drat hard to discern whether someone touched up their character portrait using photoshop's infill tool or whatever, because that's really unnecessarily looking for fights to pick. Like the core complaints that I think we can act on is intrusive AI stuff being posted around random threads where people don't want to see it and really want to yell about it - and people who do want to engage with that feeling unfairly attacked and pilloried, even within the thread explicitly for their interest.
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Jun 13, 2023 01:14
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I appreciate where you're coming from raenir but there is no difference between "what if someone breaks a rule but nobody notices" and "this rule says I can do this if nobody notices" but also "I intend to skirt as close to this line as I can, please help me figure out exactly how far I can push" is a bad look, please do not do that, OK? a much better posting philosophy is "I want to avoid irritating the poo poo out of my fellow posters as much as possible, so I'll just do that" and I think we'll all be happy with that
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Jun 13, 2023 01:32
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Oh are you asking "if I put loads and loads of effort into my AI image of a space elf, then can I post it in the warhammer thread" and the answer is still no, post it in the AI thread. The low-effort thing is people, not you, who have just shown up in threads and posted AI stuff, I guess hoping people will love it and want to see it. They do not love it or want to see it, at least quite a lot of them do not, and that sort of posting behavior is itself low-effort. Irrespective of the effort put into the image itself. I think you should disregard the word "effort" and just put AI stuff in the AI thread and make normal posts in other threads that are on topic and are not obviously full of AI stuff. e. Yeah with your edit I think you get it, hopefully.
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Jun 13, 2023 02:01
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I'll double check with Anti to make sure we agree, but I think we meant low-effort to be descriptive of past posts that got reported, rather than a limiting modifier allowing some other level of AI-full effortful posts.
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Jun 13, 2023 02:06
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We can probably just drop the words "low-effort" and that's probably OK but again I'll check and also I am probably off-duty for at least the next 14 hours so everyone hold your breath And thanks Raenir I didn't realize you weren't talking about your own posts.
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Jun 13, 2023 02:28
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ah christ I have a plumber coming in an hour to quote me a water heater because we've had no hot water for two days, a foster cat getting picked up at the same time, and I'm busy with work too but I've read through the thread and the reports queue and my PMs and I will follow up with everything as soon as I have time. I am not trying to whine for sympathy but I want you guys to know that I'm pretty stressed right now and so I'm trying not to make hasty stupid decisions. Yes yes I know "all your decisions are stupid, Leper" thanks you can skip that and we'll take it as read. Please just file reports Kestral, but in this case don't because those posts are already reported, but no just straight up "you're a dork" is not allowed although that's a pretty mild epithet, purple complained earlier about the label "luddite" as an insult not being probed, this is some low-tier stuff but nevertheless there's a rule for this thread so how about knock that poo poo off you know, this petty sniping accomplishes nothing but making GBS threads up the thread. As far as I can tell there is one remaining issue, on this topic, which is the "low effort" phrasing/confusion about what posts about AI are allowed, I think we'll clear that up today, and otherwise all the ongoing AI stuff debating is fruitless because we're going to try this policy for a while and we still absolutely are not going to resolve the arguments already made ad nauseum so please just stop making the AI-is-bad vs. no you don't understand AI arguments thank you. If you are still unclear about the rules that's fair to discuss. Otherwise kindly stop trying to get in your pot shots.
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Jun 13, 2023 19:12
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yes, you can refer to Friend Computer without a probation this some of that edge case stuff where I desperately hope common sense can prevail
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Jun 13, 2023 21:02
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yeah stockfish is basically an essential part of chess conversations today, and it's trained on the history of chess games which are basically all published and freely accessible anyway, nobody in the chess thread is gonna have an issue with it
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Jun 14, 2023 05:08
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I believe your post parallels a few others, from the previous thread etc., and our new rules should cover it. I think we can hopefully end debate on these issues, for now.
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Jun 14, 2023 23:13
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Mods are on it. Something hefty will be forthcoming after we decide exactly how hefty.
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Jul 2, 2023 19:55
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The racist has been permabanned.
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Jul 2, 2023 23:13
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Usually as a procedural matter a permaban discussion takes place between admins, with mods weighing in if it's relevant to their forum or they have something to contribute. But in this case before we had such a conversation Fluffdaddy looked at the report, the poster's priors, etc. and appears to have made an executive decision quickly to approve a permaban request that Dwarf put through. Note that this was not the first offense for this poster, and digging through both previous rap sheet entries and posts that didn't get reported led to a pretty clear conclusion, so I'm not saying the "should we perma this person" process was needed in this case. Admins have the power to issue permabans unilaterally and occasionally they do so. There is very little "standard" about permabans because they're done on a case-by-case basis and are (and should be) rare. Context, benefit of the doubt where deserved, prior offenses, information from PMs, etc. all can matter. e. no, there is no world in which the SA admins ban or permaban a poster for liking Kingdom Death: Monster. Since that's obviously what you're referring to.
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Jul 2, 2023 23:50
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An admin just ran the queue, I think you probably saw only a sixer on joeslop and nothing on TDMR and thought that was unreasonable and it would have been, yes. I have been reminded that I can use placeholder sixers to better show that action is in progress so I will do that in the future.
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Jul 6, 2023 20:51
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The IK Framboise talked to me first and I agreed with a 1-day probe, which also required admin approval. Jeffrey approved the probation with full view of our discussion on it. Toshimo's probation is for a combination of grotesquely cheering for the death of a random magic the gathering influencer as a response in a thread where people were openly mourning that person, and, for the hypocrisy of being the loudest voice for more and tougher moderation in that very thread against the people who make it a hostile place to post. A one-day probation is still pretty minor. A post that would likely have gotten a pass from someone else doesn't necessarily get that benefit of the doubt from a repeat offender, that's part of the context that goes into probation decisions. Particularly someone who has been vigorously demanding more probations. Framboise can speak for himself but my interpretation of the probation reason is that Framboise agrees with the principle that labor needs to fight capital, but, that this is a real lovely way to express that, both in terms of timing and expressed vitriol. Leperflesh fucked around with this message at 21:49 on Sep 10, 2023 |
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Sep 10, 2023 21:40
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Those are words describing why I support this moderation action.
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Sep 10, 2023 21:51
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Framboise is the expert in the Magic thread on understanding the nuances and the situation. I don't know anything about the guy who died. Framboise asked to issue a longer probe and I said sure, and let him write the reason. Then I pinged admins to approve the probation. Yes, that meant it took a little longer to go through: so what? It's not like Toshimo was still in the thread doing something that had to be immediately stopped. Tarnop posted:I've read your post again and it seems like maybe you think I was arguing for a lighter punishment. Can you clarify? it sounds like you think Framboise agreed with dancing on the grave of a dead guy, and he didn't and I don't either. It also sounded like you thought that post should have gotten a longer probation: framboise suggested a 24 and I thought that was reasonable. These are judgement calls.
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Sep 11, 2023 00:10
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Splicer posted:I think people are asking why you involved admins instead of just putting through a 24 hour probe yourself. I can't approve a probation filed by an IK. Mods don't have any power in the queue. Kchama posted:The issue, again, is that the the probe reason was “I agree with what you said, but you were too mean with that last line.” I'm having a hard time understanding why it's not clear that Framboise agrees that it's bad to stan for Wizards of the Coast against the desire of workers to get paid? That is what Framboise agrees with, and had that criticism been posted a week ago or about someone who hadn't just died, it would not have drawn any sort of penalty. However, being glad that this person is dead, and tying the two together, sucks. That is the part that was in the last sentence of Toshimo's post. I really feel like this is not that unclear and that folks are looking to read the worst possible interpretation into a probation reason. I think Framboise' frustration on that count is justified. I do wish he hadn't come into this thread quite so hot. Kild posted:He hates chinese people and defended wotc using the pinkertons so maybe you don't understand who you're defending. If Toshimo's been saying racist things on discords that's something to report to the admins, please. Mods, including myself, can't do anything about offsite drama, and that's part of why bringing offsite drama into threads is prohibited. We also obviously can't color what we do with probations based on rumors told us about something that happened offsite. Even coming close to that has bitten me hard in the past.
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Sep 11, 2023 01:35
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So that really sucks, and I want to reiterate that I'm happy with Framboise's work as an IK. We've basically been on the same page for prior reports and moderation in the magic thread. There's also not been any cases previously where Framboise wanted someone probed and I said no. Like not one. We have not been battling over whether or how much to probe people. I think it's more that, today, Framboise is asking for ramping and of course I've agreed. If we've just lost our IK over this one probation that's really unfortunate, and I'm very sorry Framboise if you feel that's necessary... but if it's what's best for you, then of course. We're very thankful for your help and being willing to volunteer. You've had some good insights over the last few months and you've always been responsive and communicative and thoughtful. I wish I'd taken time to suggest edits to that probation reason but by the time I saw the text of it it'd already been in the queue for a full day and I was just focused on getting it approved. I didn't think it was especially difficult to understand your intent. The magic thread has some aggro culture but each individual post is generally well below the threshold of even a sixer. That's hard to change. I do think the thread is in a better place now than it was three or four years ago. There is no interest at the admin level in just booting everyone with a long rap sheet. There are "lifetime achievement" permabans and everything on the rap sheet (and more besides) is considered in those cases... but there's tons of like, crappy old mod decisions from 10+ years ago, joke probations, and general nonsense on people's rap sheets to take that as a reliable indicator. It is also hard to justify a ban or a 30 day probation for saying something mean. I think what we do need to do is be more free with 3-day and week probations (everything 3+ requires admin approval), but like, we'll all need to be ready for the backlash from the first posters to catch 3+ day probes for being a bit rude, or emptyquoting someone to suggest without saying so that they're ridiculous, or expressing a sort of snide incredulity that they would think such-and-such a magic the gathering card was playable. To put it bluntly: the people most invested in harsher moderation of the Magic thread also seem to be the very same people who will receive the longer probations. There are exceptions but most of the complaints from that thread come from people who are also guilty of sniping, bickering, excessive ironyposting, etc. But I hear you guys. Antivehicular posted she's willing to take a more active role in that thread, and I will too.
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Sep 11, 2023 03:45
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The point is just that you can't just set some kind of automatic beep boop this person's sheet is long hit them hard rule. You have to sit and read through the probations, reasons, and look at the posts. Judgy Fucker posted:I think this is blowing things a bit too much out of proportion the other way. Toshimo is far and away the most aggro and toxic poster in the M:TG thread, it's not even close. They almost never post something that isn't lovely and hateful. It's actually trivial to see this (the bolded bit) isn't the case. I've clicked the question mark and looked at all of Toshimo's posts in the thread and the vast majority of them are totally normal magic the gathering thread posts. This is part of the issue that muddies the waters: there's always a lot of hyperbole surrounding the magic the gathering thread. This feels kind of bad, right now, talking about Toshimo while he's on probation and can't respond or defend himself. We do have this rule at the top of this feedback thread: Leperflesh posted:Do not attack other posters here. This thread is not a substitute for using the report function. I think it would be better to talk about "how we should moderate that thread" more and less "dump on Toshimo, specifically." Let's focus on broader questions: Kai Tave posted:Just having a big rap sheet doesn't need to result in instant exile to the land of wind and ghosts but I think that if you can look at the top 6-10 probations in someone's rap sheet and they're all in the same thread for the same reason that maybe that's an indication that maybe that person just kinda sucks. Is their continued presence making the thread a better place or not? If not, why do they get to stick around and keep making it worse? When a poster's rate of getting probated and the severity of the issues is falling over time I think that's a positive sign. I do actually look at that, too. I think if someone has been showing a trend of getting better over time that's worth encouraging and supporting, vs. just drawing a line and saying if you make one more post we don't like, you're out.
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Sep 11, 2023 04:26
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Yeah I want to be 100% clear that at no point did Framboise ask for or suggest a longer probation, on that post or any other post. The two of us have talked about what is permitted across SA previously, and based on that as well as posts today I believe he's talking about broader SA culture.
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Sep 11, 2023 05:06
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Leperflesh posted:If Toshimo's been saying racist things on discords that's something to report to the admins, please. Mods, including myself, can't do anything about offsite drama, and that's part of why bringing offsite drama into threads is prohibited. We also obviously can't color what we do with probations based on rumors told us about something that happened offsite. Even coming close to that has bitten me hard in the past. I'm serious about this. Toshimo, I haven't hit posts about this hard yet because the whole thing with Podima still smolders in recent memory - terrible poo poo happening offsite that did not get to mods & admins before he got all the way to being approved as an admin, and meanwhile us merrily enforcing a don't post about discord stuff rule to keep everything quiet. SIf there are victims and genuine complaints they need to get into PMs or emails with admins and be heard, not responded to with just "shut up" probations. But it's a fair point that this sort of rumor-spreading on the forums can be incredibly damaging and if it's being misrepresented it's way out of line. I've got the reports still open. I'm reiterating the quoted text above for everyone: if you have receipts, look, sebmojo is right here, or if you prefer, pick any other admin. Or use the email-all-the-admins email address. But if you're not willing to back up these accusations to the only people who can do anything about it, it's got to stop. Fajita Queen, do that now please, don't keep posting arguments here about this offsite stuff. It sucks to give probations to people who are honestly reporting bad behavior just because they're doing it in the wrong place, but there's a larger principle at play here that requires us to protect everyone from game-of-telephone rumor-mongering that gets badly out of hand very fast.
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Sep 11, 2023 17:57
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Me asking for that line of discussion to stop is not me ignoring the entire rest of the discussion.
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Sep 11, 2023 23:23
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I think Anti and I have both already said we'll take an active role in that thread, we agreed with ramping and doing longer probations, and I'm not sure what else we need to agree to here that we haven't already. I don't mind that more people want to weigh in in support of more aggressive moderation, but the reason I'm not replying to every post is because the consensus is already clear and obvious and agreed-to. A couple of people have already volunteered to be IK in the magic thread, and we'll take a look at those ideas too.
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Sep 12, 2023 01:12
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I agree with that as a principle, but there are exceptions because certain people just always report their one posting enemy. Reports are... well, you have to take them each with the context they exist in, and that includes the post being reported with the reason provided, that person's rap sheet and long-term habits as discussed today, and also who is reporting them and are they just taking their side of a dumb argument to the reports queue. I don't want to discourage anyone from reporting things, though. Even if you're involved. Maybe you're calling attention to a mod who will give both you and your posting enemy probations for your bad posts, but that's still better for the thread and everyone else. For those not immersed in the Magic the Gathering TG culture: for many many long years it was habitual for people who don't play Commander to poo poo on people who do, both directly and with sort of snide side-comments. We've cracked down on that, it's not allowed, and I think a lot of that tension is resolved. It's never going away completely because people who don't like that format are annoyed by all the cards Wizards prints that are specifically for that format (but mixed in with the rest in packs) and that's understandable. But dumping on people for enjoying their card game wrong isn't OK and hasn't been under my watch. If you've avoided the commander thread because it used to be haunted by those ghosts, I'd encourage you to check it out again in its current iteration.
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Sep 12, 2023 23:01
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I think part of the reason Rutibex slid under the radar more than he should have is that he was generally pretty cheerful while saying asinine things, which is not the usual issue. He was also always polite and conciliatory via PMs. He copped a few probations but also had conversations with mods where we said "don't do that thing" and he'd be like "oh, I'm sorry, OK I won't do that!" which would last for a while. Anyway if you want to amass examples of typical misbehavior in TG, I don't think Rutibex is a good one, he was a very unusual badposter with his own specific flavor of being a confident idiot.
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Sep 13, 2023 01:07
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Has there been anyone who was ever only threadbanned from one thread and was just absolutely fine later? Is that even a thing? I have to wonder if it's more like throwing the problem somewhere else instead of actually dealing with it. I'm told threadbans have been effective in the politics forums, but are also a maintenance nightmare because there's no actual support for them in the forums software. They have several mods and more than a handful of threadbanned posters and they have to like, make lists to pass down to successor mods or something just to know who is threadbanned from where. You can't just rely on rap sheet entries because that requires someone reading every rap sheet entry every time they deal with a report, and in high-volume high-population forums like the politics ones that's also not very realistic. They deal with dozens of reports daily. Admins seem to feel they're more of a last resort for posters who are clearly not a problem outside that one specific thread, but are earning bans for posts within that thread. Most of the time they want us to just use longer probations or regular bans. If a poster can't stop being poo poo in one place they are probably being poo poo everywhere. I've seen Ban+30 probation reasons that say something like "never come back to this thread, you are threadbanned" and then like four months later that poster has earned a perma, so sometimes it's a sign that things are going in that direction anyway.
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Sep 13, 2023 05:06
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ok whew this thread can move a lot while I'm away. Uh, so Arivia, I think Dwarf74's probations were appropriate and I'll also address your argument directly: on the one hand, you want me to probe the world's Rutibexes for being wrong consistently on a subject: and on the other, you want me to allow you to insist that D&D is a good system for running heists, in a thread where someone is asking for advice on game systems to run heists. In both cases you are asking me to prioritize my opinion over someone else's opinion. Now, Rutibex's opinions were generally opposed by literally every single person who had any knowledge on the subject, whereas your opinion I guess has at least a couple of people who agree with it: but in both cases, my opinion is that you're totally wrong and also just an impossible person to argue with on any subject because, whether you intend it or not, your posts come off as So yeah the argument with xiahou isn't going to go anywhere because his point is valid - there are systems built much better to support heists, and D&D does cost money so it's "harmful" to tell people to buy it for that purpose - and your point is pedantic - D&D, technically, doesn't prevent you from running heists and there are published heist adventures etc. etc. This argument sucks and nobody hear wants to read it. Using mod powers to win fights about opinions is abusive of that mod power, so I avoid doing that. I let it slide that you and a couple other people think D&D is a good system for heists - or hell, anything at all, any more - because my opinion isn't important or relevant, what's relevant is whether the thread (I think that was the chat thread or the industry thread) is still healthy and can continue in a reasonable way or not. People can read the debate and make a decision and you're not constantly wrong like Rutibex. But the feedback thread is not the place to debate whether or not D&D is a good system for heists, and that's the actual argument that you and xiahou seemed to want to have, and dwarf74 was right to put a stop on that.
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Sep 13, 2023 18:50
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Arivia posted:Please show me where in my posts in this thread I was arguing how appropriate D&D was as a heist game. I am being downright gaslit at this point. Xihau brought it up Xiahou Dun posted:I ate a probe because you kept arguing D&D totally supports running investigative mystery games. A game that is going to cost north of a hundred dollars and has no support besides not actively stopping you and has an entire sub-sub-system (divination magic) that obviates mysteries. In a conversation about games with actual mechanics for running mysteries. Arivia posted:Us having a system discussion doesn’t cost me, you, or anyone else money. That’s the very easy line, imo. This is that conversation. It's opinions, supportable or not, that a majority or not a majority agree with: it's the Rutibex quandry, "what should mods do about opinions that are bad" and the answer is "almost always nothing, unless they're Rutibex levels of consistently and universally recognized as terrible." The point here isn't even that specific opinion, I'm reiterating it for clarity here: it's that if mods of TG started cracking down on having unpopular opinions, you'd be one of the first victims of that policy, just based on past experience. I don't think you want that. Leperflesh fucked around with this message at 19:28 on Sep 13, 2023 |
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Sep 13, 2023 19:25
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Kchama posted:That doesn't seem to be about "in this thread I was arguing how appropriate D&D was as a heist game", like what? Dwarf74 can speak for himself but I think in this thread the probations were "you can't fight here, this is the war room." And I was, also, as an aside, trying to address Arivia's claimed point, and using the prior disagreement alluded to here, as an example.
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Sep 13, 2023 19:33
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Arivia posted:No. You have just specifically said that “But the feedback thread is not the place to debate whether or not D&D is a good system for heists, and that's the actual argument that you and xiahou seemed to want to have, and dwarf74 was right to put a stop on that.” It doesn't really matter much what the fight was about, but that's what I think the brewing fight was about. Originally, and being imported here. I brought up what the fight was about to use it as an example of mods - well, me, this is my take - not wanting to moderate people for having opinions. Kchama posted:I was confused with you trying to menace her or whatever for having a bad opinion that she appears to not have right now. Arivia's declaration that she didn't recommend 5e, in that previous conversation I have not reviewed today, can stand if she likes, it doesn't matter. I'm sure she can remember many other occasions in which her opinion was unpopular in a thread.
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Sep 13, 2023 19:42
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