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JBP posted:I referred my non-warham egghead friend that does UX stuff to it for a look and he had a complete meltdown. It cost them 10.8 million GBP
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Apr 26, 2024 15:18
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It's funny because the Black Library store page seems much more fluid and easy to use, if still kinda retro.
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Apr 26, 2024 15:22
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Angry Lobster posted:[The ork redesign in 3e] was a huge change, both in rules, lore and aesthetic, people getting mad at it was to be expected, just like it happens now everytime there's a substantial change. Fortunately, time has proved that going the GorkaMorka route was a home-run decision. You're conflating two sets of changes in hindsight. 3e was an indexhammer edition, although nobody yet called it that at the time. The ork index-equivalent was terrible! They lost a ton of units, including basically any interesting or whimsical ones. You were expected to care about the difference between "ork mob" and "ork mob with grenades". 3e index orks were a melee army with basically no access to power weapons for AP, and their vehicles were all inferior for not that many fewer points. Additionally, the Gorkamorka plastic orks were not that appealing.  They have their charm in retrospect, but being reduced to a mob of guys with generic melee weapons and basically bolt pistols was not fun to play. There was an understandable backlash at this point! When the codex came out about a year later, it was a different story. Not only did they have significantly better rules (although modifying armor saves was mildly controversial), but they also came with outstanding plastic models with a bunch of metal add-on variations, as well as a bunch of new metal models, all sculpted by Brian Nelson.  (Technically this is a push-fit ork from 4e but they look the same.) Brian Nelson also sculpted a bunch of the metal characters for Gorkamorka, all of them with big heads and lantern jaws. A bunch of those ended up repackaged for 40K for years, all the way into finecast. (IIRC the last ones to be replaced were the helicopters, in 8e.) Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 15:27 on Apr 26, 2024 |
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Apr 26, 2024 15:23
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Being fixed in stone is the problem. Well we have a contract to print a codex so we can't not print it, well we have a printed book so we can't change it, well we waited long enough to start making changes but since this isn't the correct quarter to make bigger changes we can't actually fix anything, maybe we'll fix it next quarter. Continuing to make bad decisions because you made a bad decision years ago isn't a good reason.
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Apr 26, 2024 15:24
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Lostconfused posted:In for a penny in for a pound, what else are we gonna do, just not kill trees? Ridiculous. I feel like the whole rulebook system could be merged into a Warhammer+ Subscription, and if you do own a physical book use a code from it to have it perma unlocked.
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Apr 26, 2024 15:27
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Lostconfused posted:Being fixed in stone is the problem. Sure but can you make a business case for eating that loss and making up for it with digital codes? Cause I don't see it.
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Apr 26, 2024 15:49
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It's not like the rules won't be on Wahapedia within a month of release anyways. They should just hire that guy.
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Apr 26, 2024 15:52
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Eej posted:Sure but can you make a business case for eating that loss and making up for it with digital codes? Cause I don't see it. you do not have to cape for the profits of a company you do not own
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Apr 26, 2024 16:00
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Eej posted:Sure but can you make a business case for eating that loss and making up for it with digital codes? Cause I don't see it. You probably can make a case for it at some point in that chain, but it's also probably less effort for management to let things be as they are and not do that extra work or take the risk.
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Apr 26, 2024 16:01
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i'm hoping the new tau combat patrols reduce the cost of the original ones so i can snag them at a discount
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Apr 26, 2024 16:01
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Pretty sure discontinued combat patrols will only go up in price as people try to snatch up the remaining stock. At least I thought about picking one up this week because I'd want the Riptide.
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Apr 26, 2024 16:02
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dang that makes sense
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Apr 26, 2024 16:03
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Lostconfused posted:Being fixed in stone is the problem. I think a rather significant part of the issue is that the Index rules just needed more time in development than they were allotted. They were rushed into production and now they’re struggling with that decision.
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Apr 26, 2024 16:07
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Cease to Hope posted:you do not have to cape for the profits of a company you do not own Acknowledging the reality of corporate behaviour is not the same thing as full throated support of it.
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Apr 26, 2024 16:20
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Kaal posted:I think a rather significant part of the issue is that the Index rules just needed more time in development than they were allotted. They were rushed into production and now they’re struggling with that decision. i think the indices were fairly well balanced on release. minus Eldar and admech and a couple other factions that were real lovely, like death guard. if you and your opponent were playing the other 20ish factions indexhammer was great.
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Apr 26, 2024 16:22
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Eej posted:It cost them 10.8 million GBP I really want to know who they hired to do it. They mugged GW off proper.
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Apr 26, 2024 17:34
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CottonWolf posted:I really want to know who they hired to do it. They mugged GW off proper. Wasn't it someone internally? If so 2xlol
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Apr 26, 2024 22:00
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I must say, it was a lot easier to do the sort of shopping I want to do on the old website. I also appreciated that the models had associated color patches/formulas as well. That seemed handy, although to an extent that is emulated in the painting app.
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Apr 26, 2024 22:10
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Having kasrkin and scions as seperate is stupid. Just call them all stormtroopers and be done with it
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Apr 26, 2024 22:15
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No see one is from Cadia and the other is some totally different branch of the imperial army.
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Apr 26, 2024 22:32
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Cease to Hope posted:You're conflating two sets of changes in hindsight. Ah Gorkamorka. Interesting to think that whilst they game brought the ork aesthetic to it's weakest on the tabletop (unless you reached back to the old 40k range) the art and concepts, especially Wayne England's, basically brought about the look they have today. Also brought in Trukks as their signature transport to replace the comically long discontinued Battle Wagon. If they replaced Gorkamorka's Boyz with the subsequent updated ones it actually would have meaningfully impacted the game, where a vehicle's capacity was determined by what physically fit on it. Although at the same time you could also build vehicles as you wished so a stock truck cost as many teef as a tea tray on wheels you made.
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Apr 26, 2024 22:40
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Super Waffle posted:It's not like the rules won't be on Wahapedia within a month of release anyways. They should just hire that guy. Surprised they didn't try to get their local MP to get the guy/the website on a sanctions list once Ukraine kicked off tbh. They probably feel it's beneficial to their ecosystem that he exists and they're willing to turn a blind eye to him and no one can accuse them of not protecting their IP since he's in Russia.
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Apr 26, 2024 23:41
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I can only imagine they tried and the MP just gave them a long and confused stare because he has no loving clue what they were talking about.
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Apr 26, 2024 23:47
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Finished Horus Rising and I think I like space marines even less now.
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Apr 27, 2024 00:43
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BizarroAzrael posted:If they replaced Gorkamorka's Boyz with the subsequent updated ones it actually would have meaningfully impacted the game, where a vehicle's capacity was determined by what physically fit on it. Although at the same time you could also build vehicles as you wished so a stock truck cost as many teef as a tea tray on wheels you made. the metal models for characters and such in gorkamorka were 3e-ork sized! it was not a game long on considered game balance.
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Apr 27, 2024 04:02
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Lostconfused posted:Finished Horus Rising and I think I like space marines even less now. Please elaborate!
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Apr 27, 2024 04:06
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Well the book does a lot of tell not show, but also makes the "astartes" act like normal people. So you have the narrator and the characters talk about how amazing these god like supermen are, but the godlike super men are bumbling around and tripping over their egos like any other idiot. So they end up being real but somewhat unlikable characters.
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Apr 27, 2024 06:05
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Lostconfused posted:Well the book does a lot of tell not show, but also makes the "astartes" act like normal people. I kinda like the concept sometimes brought up that space marines were a bad idea by the emperor mostly driven by his non transcendent vanity.
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Apr 27, 2024 10:00
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Lostconfused posted:Well the book does a lot of tell not show, but also makes the "astartes" act like normal people. A fair criticism, but also that is one of the central premises of the entire series, honestly. If it's a stumbling block here you may find the whole series a harder read.
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Apr 27, 2024 10:20
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Yeah the entire point of the Horus heresy is that marines think that they’re beyond human but they are in fact just humans writ large, with extra-large flaws and follies to match their extra-large strength and courage.
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Apr 27, 2024 13:51
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Theyr also dumber and more poorly taught than most humans and grow up in an abusive all male environment. So theyr actually worse than normal humans at emotional regulation and social situations. The early HH books seemed to be a lot more willing to paint the emperor as bad, I'm getting thru the end and the death and it seems like one giant book of excuses for the emperor. They kinda turn him into Rick of Morty fame where he may seem like an insane megalomaniacal rear end in a top hat but actually he's got anxiety and he just isn't good with people etc It might be because all the chaos POVs are gone by this point so it's all imperial guys massaging his ego and explaining how this isn't what he intended but also isn't his fault. The closest you get is his best friends telling him while they don't agree, he's better than xyz but they'll still fight to the death for his dream. The more I think about it the less I like it, considering he's a genocidal superhitler in the "good days" and his empire only gets worse from there. Making him not a villain really stinks for the setting. Make him the evil guy with am ambitious plan who you love to hate, not that he meant well he just didnt listen to enough friends on the way Communist Thoughts fucked around with this message at 14:25 on Apr 27, 2024 |
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Apr 27, 2024 14:22
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Almost all of the Space Marine selection process is 'are you a rad fighter and will you survive this awful gene/body manipulation', none of it is to do with intelligence or emotional stability. Then they implant them with 25 organs that make them more survivable and better killers but also do nothing to help them process or adjust to their lives (I guess there is the one that lets them go without sleep for days but, uh, don't think that is good for perception or regulation either). So for most Space Marines, whatever education and guidance they have about social/emotional learning ends when they're generally either adolescents or pre-pubescent and are swept up for processing. It's no surprise if they have a stack of issues.
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Apr 27, 2024 14:41
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Torchlighter posted:A fair criticism, but also that is one of the central premises of the entire series, honestly. If it's a stumbling block here you may find the whole series a harder read. It's not a stumbling block, I think it's fine. But it doesn't make me want to paint an army of marines and my personal view on the setting is becoming that it would be nice for everyone else to see the emperor and his boys go away.
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Apr 27, 2024 14:45
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one major failure of the 30k setting is the lack of focus given to what was going on before the emperor showed up. there’s information on that out there but you have to go digging for it. It seems like a pretty horrific situation, with much of humanity enslaved to aliens like the Nephilim or Slaugth, or in horrific chaos-dominated cultures like the Nurthene and the Davinites. Compared to that the Imperium must have seemed like a breath of fresh air, and that context explains why everyone in the 30k era talks fondly about a heavily militarized, rabidly expansionistic feudal monarchy.
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Apr 27, 2024 14:54
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I've only made it through the first novel so far but 2/3rds of the novel are about killing other humans that are either in the same conditions as the imperium or much much better off. Like yeah the Terran Empire is better than the worst possible chaos, but it also means things stay forever lovely because they'll go to war with anyone that thinks things can be not poo poo.
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Apr 27, 2024 15:03
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The whole notion of SMs being removed from humanity or above it all or however their supposed alienation is phrased has always felt like protesting too much to me. Yes, they have crazy-long lifespans and incredible strength and can spit poison for some incredibly stupid reason (does that ever come up in the fiction? I haven't read enough to know) and they are profoundly brainwashed but it all still starts with a human being. They can hype themselves and be hyped up by others as much as possible but at the end of the day, they're human at the core and there's no stripping back those human flaws and foibles and that seems like the whole point of 40k to me. The Astartes should seem unlikeable because they are. They're frequently the protagonists but they are never the good guys.
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Apr 27, 2024 15:23
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rantmo posted:The whole notion of SMs being removed from humanity or above it all or however their supposed alienation is phrased has always felt like protesting too much to me. Yes, they have crazy-long lifespans and incredible strength and can spit poison for some incredibly stupid reason (does that ever come up in the fiction? I haven't read enough to know) and they are profoundly brainwashed but it all still starts with a human being. They can hype themselves and be hyped up by others as much as possible but at the end of the day, they're human at the core and there's no stripping back those human flaws and foibles and that seems like the whole point of 40k to me. The Astartes should seem unlikeable because they are. They're frequently the protagonists but they are never the good guys. Some good fun authors have tended to remember that space marines can spit venom and use it to good effect on rare occasions.
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Apr 27, 2024 16:53
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Communist Thoughts posted:Theyr also dumber and more poorly taught than most humans and grow up in an abusive all male environment. So theyr actually worse than normal humans at emotional regulation and social situations. A lot of the early Horus Heresy was kind of skirting around a lot of things but reading between the lines it was obvious to me at least that the Imperium of 41M is not dissimilar to the Imperium that would haver existed if the Emperor survived, and I was basically all in on 'The Emperor is a Great Man Fallacy fascist jerkoff who believes his own hype', but as the books wore on it started to become increasingly obvious that it was working towards the current general line where the Imperium is bad-ish and Guilliman is a set-upon son who is unhappy with the flaws of the current Imperium and Working To Fix Them as Great Man 2.0. Ultimately my personal bugbear with the whole thing is how quickly the Traitors start to descend into the versions they are now, and how I feel that actually kind of handicaps things like the World Eaters for the purposes of helping give them hooks you can work around expanding the model range with. You can always retcon, but the Horus Heresy was and is so big that the details end up making big events things you have to work around rather than potential things that can be picked or ignored. There will always be a Night of the Wolf, even if I think the whole thing is stupid in a way that is narratively unsatisfying and makes no one look good.
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Apr 27, 2024 16:57
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Lostconfused posted:I've only made it through the first novel so far but 2/3rds of the novel are about killing other humans that are either in the same conditions as the imperium or much much better off. Yeah, you are definitely supposed to understand in Horus Rising that, even pre-Chaos, this is not a healthy culture and it is not going anywhere good. The seeds of disaster are already sown. What I meant was you don’t really get a strong in-universe sense of why people were ok with that, and why they didn’t see the disaster coming, because they don’t provide enough context for how the brutal, rapacious Imperium came to be.
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Apr 27, 2024 17:00
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Torchlighter posted:Ultimately my personal bugbear with the whole thing is how quickly the Traitors start to descend into the versions they are now You could say that again. In Horus Rising they're all written to be have at least some decent personal qualities, but the 2nd book turns them all into huge assholes from the word go. Edit: Right now I'm attributing it to the change in authors creating a bit of a tone shift. Or the most obvious twist that Erebus is mindfucking everyone in Luna Wolves, but the tonal whiplash is very real. Lostconfused fucked around with this message at 17:46 on Apr 27, 2024 |
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Apr 27, 2024 17:33
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