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Battleline seems more of an issue for armies with a lot of variety in the way their armies look. For say armies orks, guard, and even space marines, a lot of their models look if not the same then very similar, so it doesn't seem like big deal if you don't take the most vanilla available option for one of those. It sticks out way more for someone like Eldar where you have regular elves with guns and then everyone else dressed up in their fanciest outfit trying to look the most unique at the party.
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Mar 29, 2024 21:44
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Geisladisk posted:They just haven't found a role for basic infantry in this game. For a long while you just had to take three units, but everyone took minimum sized units and they were just a tax. This time they tried making them good at capping, but they're not good enough at that and don't do anything else well. They just need to fulfill some role that no other unit type can. To my mind, at least, they should just lean into their Detachment mechanic and have one in the Index for each faction built around having a strong bonus for Battleline units. Players should want to take all their Battleline units because their rules encourage them to do so. Then you can have specialist Codex Detachments that encourage players to focus on other units, to the expense of their Battleline. The Detachments can be balanced against each other with the expectation that some players will want to emphasize their Elites / Armor / Flyers / Specialists / etc., and others will emphasize their infantry Battleline. That way you don't have this weird situation where the "standard unit" is in fact very niche and rare. But this of course quickly gets into 10.5th Edition territory, since the system as a whole could use a more cohesive vision about game balance and unit roles. Kaal fucked around with this message at 01:41 on Mar 30, 2024 |
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Mar 29, 2024 21:44
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It's also thisbird food bathtub posted:I always beat my head against Hormagaunts and Termagants with Tyranids. Moderately useful in just having a big pile of bodies on the field but they're still expensive for what you get with them and it probably costs me effectiveness on the table. Current meta with Tyranids seems to be a swarm of gargoyles and grabbing as many objective points as you can before you get wiped off the table. Power creep is real and First Codex Syndrome is hurting. You have to put in a lot work from collecting and painting a large number of models, and then watching them get mulched on the table. It's not a fun experience, which naturally gets people to move towards more elite armies. You really have to want to play like that in the first place.
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Mar 29, 2024 22:00
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We only have 2 battleline options but GSC's battleline are both great and the cult ambush mechanic making battleline units more likely to come back is nice
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Mar 29, 2024 22:17
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Armies like that also seem to have much shittier points-per-dollar rates currently I gather the 'meta' admech list is currently a large amount of skitarii vanguard with dunerider transport and ironstrider support, but all three of those unit types have absolutely horrible points per dollar. In particular, the dunerider uses the 60-70 dollar skorpius disintegrator kit while being 80 points instead of 180, and the radium jezzail variant of the sydonian dragoon may be the single least dollar-efficient unit in the game at 60 dollars for a single 45 point model i'm not doing this, i'm building vehicle-heavy admech. but it is not meta.
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Mar 29, 2024 22:18
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sharkmafia posted:Armies like that also seem to have much shittier points-per-dollar rates currently There's like 2 other vehicle types to choose from besides the dunerider. Admech needs more tanks and weird vehicles
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Mar 29, 2024 22:38
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Geisladisk posted:This time they tried making them good at capping, but they're not good enough at that and don't do anything else well. It's not all that bad imo. There are Sons of Sanguinius lists that run 2-3 Captains with 5 Assault Intercessors to give the "reroll all wounds when fighting on an objective" ability to the Captain so when the latter uses Finest Hour it can fish for Devastating Wounds on the Power Fist. The same can be done with Legionaries in CSM. Ahriman with Flamer Rubrics is rerolling and +1 to wound on anything dumb enough to charge them on an objective or stand in range of one. Being able to really fight on objectives is still a useful niche. Battle Sisters can be split into smaller groups so you can have one parked in the back objective and then the other half with both meltas and the anti psyker crossbow attached to an offensive unit. Tau Breachers are really good as previously mentioned. Bloodletters can really rip if you can get them to touch something without dying. And of course you need Gants in Endless Swarm.
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Mar 29, 2024 22:49
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Geisladisk posted:They just haven't found a role for basic infantry in this game. I mean, they have. Two of them, in fact. Efficient board control with anti-chaff attacks: Guard Infantry, Skitarii, both Ork Boyz units, Neophytes, Tau Breachers, Kabalites, Crusaders, probably more. Then there are all rounders who are a blank slate for big army rule or character buffs: Rubrics, Plague Marines, Berzerkers, Ork Boyz again, Necrons, Kabalites again, Crusaders again, etc. The main reasons they don't: Giant army lists with many specialist units. Death Guard don't exactly have a variety of options! The larger the army list, the more options that might offer the exact particular option that has a specialty that outperforms battleline in the specific role of mowing down infantry or jamming up the board. Intercessors and Guardians have to deal with faster, killier, tougher, cheaper, and better-specialized units to handle mission tasks or massed fire. Sometimes these units aren't even bad - a lot of armies would love to have Legionaries or Assault Intercessors! They're just B+ units in armies with better options. Spamming battleline is a negative play experience for all involved for half the armies in the game. If you set out to really jam up the entire table with infantry, it takes forever to set up, forever to move, forever to resolve combat, and forever to tear down. Unending Swarm Tyranids are just hateful to play and play against. I can understand the fantasy of slamming down 150 guys and making that your opponent's problem, but 40K just breaks down at that scale. In dollars, battleline tend to cost just as much per-guy, and much less per-point. There are armies where this is the exception, but they are relatively few. If battleline were perfectly balanced with and interchangeable with elite non-battleline, one box is cheaper than two boxes. It's rarely that simple, but it's a reason few Admech players run go-wide Skitarii in transports, why GSC is so unpopular, and why everyone overlooks Heavy Intercessors. Carpeting the board is expensive! Nobody thinks of good battleline as battleline. All War Dogs, Nurglings, Custodian Guard, Gargoyles, Crusader Squads: there are lots of units nobody thinks of as battleline because they're effective and efficient. 9e and 10e pushed a bunch of efficient specialists out of troops/battleline, in fact: SM Scouts, SM Infiltrators/Incursors, Eldar Rangers, Dire Avengers, Accursed Cultists, etc.
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Mar 29, 2024 22:52
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I have a Grey Knights list that I call Oops All Terminators that's literally just six MSU Terminators, six leaders, and one Vindicare Assassin because I had a few points and nowhere to spend them (I only have three units of Terminators and one doesn't have a banner though so I won't actually be playing said list anytime soon) but that is exceptional because GK Terminators are ridiculous and have to be because we have so few units at all.
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Mar 29, 2024 22:56
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Improbable Lobster posted:There's like 2 other vehicle types to choose from besides the dunerider. kastelans are also vehicles, technically. it's a cohort cybernetica list vehicle-wise it's 3 onager dunecrawlers, 2 disintegrators, a unit of 4 punch kastelans, and as many ironstriders as i could stand to buy, which was 7 counting the 3 i already had most of the vehicles are decent to good, but kastelans could definitely use some help. the shooty variant in particular is absolutely not worth the points; at least the dual-fist version will probably smash whatever it can get into melee with sharkmafia fucked around with this message at 23:01 on Mar 29, 2024 |
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Mar 29, 2024 22:56
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Eej posted:
They can?
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Mar 29, 2024 23:10
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Yeah the Immolator has a special rule that lets you do it because it only fits 6 people inside but every squad is 10. It's part of why you see Immolators in every list.
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Mar 29, 2024 23:19
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Huh, somehow I overlooked that. Now I want to play a game with my Sisters (but my gaming time is currently taken up with Crusade and my Templars).
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Mar 29, 2024 23:25
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Improbable Lobster posted:There's like 2 other vehicle types to choose from besides the dunerider. Need the admech from Titanicus which is basically guard tanks with ork infantry.
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Mar 30, 2024 00:03
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However, I have been considering ditching three squads of cadians for one big chunky block of gasmask boys for the past week.
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Mar 30, 2024 00:04
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I am building this Space Wolf combat patrol and I see I can choose the middle bit for the guns. There's a blue one, a pink one, and a green one. Which are the good ones, or does this not matter in 10th ed other than for style?
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Mar 30, 2024 09:37
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doesn't matter anymore
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Mar 30, 2024 09:46
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It was a cool idea, not sure how it worked out in game because I don’t play 40K It does matter still in Kill Team- I’ve yet to use the sniper version successfully
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Mar 30, 2024 09:48
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I thought WISYWIG still matters in 40K, but as always it depends on where you're playing and with who?
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Mar 30, 2024 14:51
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Official Rules aside, I don't think anyone who is worth playing is going to get too upset about your modeling not being WYSIWYG as long as you explain it. Nobody knows what this poo poo is besides the common Imperium arsenal anyway. When I plonk down my evil space elves, nobody knows the difference between the murderneedle hellwhip and the pychodeath starspear musket. And I don't know a Tau Mk. XIV Punch Gundam vs. a Mk. XXI Melter Gundam. It is only Tau Gundams.
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Mar 30, 2024 16:09
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As always I'm fine with not strictly following wysiwyg so long it's clear to your opponent what models have what special weapons
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Mar 30, 2024 16:33
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It's basically consistency. "All my chimera multilaser turrets are heavy bolters" is going to be fine while no one's going to be happy with "These two are heavy bolters, these two are heavy flamers and this one is still a multilaser" since there's no way to tell.
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Mar 30, 2024 16:36
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ro5s posted:It's basically consistency. "All my chimera multilaser turrets are heavy bolters" is going to be fine while no one's going to be happy with "These two are heavy bolters, these two are heavy flamers and this one is still a multilaser" since there's no way to tell. Two are black, two are red, one is blue. I watched a battle report last night where someone painted his transports based on what units were meant to be inside and I'm stealing that idea.
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Mar 30, 2024 16:53
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Lostconfused posted:I thought WISYWIG still matters in 40K, but as always it depends on where you're playing and with who? It does still matter a bit for 40k, but 10th edition crunched the 3 different weapons options for intercessors down to a single bolt rifle. All 3 options are the same now.
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Mar 30, 2024 17:06
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moths posted:I don't think that's negative, it's a pretty insightful way to discuss what's going on in 40k today. I'm going to have to, I've been eyeing the solar aux tanks. My biggest issue is I play Vostroyans, whose entire thing is that they didn't participate in the HH. I'm not about to start another army. xtothez posted:Yeah GW clearly realised a while ago that they could better cater to everyone's tastes with more specific game systems, and thus continue selling them models. After years of trying to tick all of the possible hobby boxes by making 40k one-game-fits-all (and doing everything poorly), Games Workshop decided to actually maintain multiple game systems again with different focuses: I played the tail end of 2nd, plus for the entire duration of 3rd, mirror matches were becoming pretty standard even then. There were attack and defend scenarios which weren't mirrored that my group got a lot of utility out of. Things like scatter dice also make more sense for a narrative focus, you don't want them in competitive play. As much as I don't miss arguing about whose under the template, I miss firing an earthshaker at some tank or squad and then having the shell whizz off course into something else. It creates a little cinematic moment, and adds a lot of tension to firing ordnance weapons. We all ended up switching to old necromunda after 3rd, we loved the more narrative focus and actual skirmish game model count. I really miss the second edition model counts, it was a slightly too large skirmish game. That size was fun, though I struggled to understand the game, 3rd was much easier to play.
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Mar 30, 2024 17:14
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Yeah i kinda wish the game was like combat patrol sized by default, maybe a bit bigger. I feel like drastically restricting weapon options would both be good for the game and very annoying for modelers with decades old armies
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Mar 30, 2024 17:36
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Sharkopath posted:It does still matter a bit for 40k, but 10th edition crunched the 3 different weapons options for intercessors down to a single bolt rifle. All 3 options are the same now.
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Mar 30, 2024 18:45
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Nessus posted:Ah OK, so it's true for them but not necessarily universal. Yeah a bunch of different wargear and weapon choices got streamlined out to being cosmetic, but there still are others that matter left in.
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Mar 30, 2024 19:04
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Sharkopath posted:Yeah a bunch of different wargear and weapon choices got streamlined out to being cosmetic, but there still are others that matter left in.
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Mar 30, 2024 19:19
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Virtual Russian posted:I'm going to have to, I've been eyeing the solar aux tanks. My biggest issue is I play Vostroyans, whose entire thing is that they didn't participate in the HH. I'm not about to start another army. Shouldn't be too hard to invent a reason for them to be active, not like anyone would care.
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Mar 30, 2024 20:23
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Nessus posted:Do any of 'em apply to the Reivers? I'm having a shocking amount of fun just glueing little pieces of space soldiers together but if the painting isn't miserably persnickety I will likely be buying up to a 2000 point army of these little jerks over time. Reivers I think its just the choice between knife and pistol or bolt rifle and fists. The grapple launcher and backpack chute are free upgrades now.
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Mar 30, 2024 20:41
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Virtual Russian posted:I'm going to have to, I've been eyeing the solar aux tanks. My biggest issue is I play Vostroyans, whose entire thing is that they didn't participate in the HH. I'm not about to start another army. They found a cache of heresy era tabks. Boom, done.
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Mar 30, 2024 20:48
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Just got another game in with my Guard. It's hard to overstate how good the data slate change is for officers. I fully deleted half my opponents army on turn two just with deep strike and strat reserves.
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Mar 30, 2024 21:06
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Nessus posted:I am building this Space Wolf combat patrol and I see I can choose the middle bit for the guns. There's a blue one, a pink one, and a green one. Which are the good ones, or does this not matter in 10th ed other than for style? Just adding on here, the reason it doesn’t matter anymore is that in 9th each one was different profiles (all-round, assault, and sniping) and those have all been reduced to a single profile. One of the better parts of wargear in 10th is condensing stuff like that imo. Trying to build for all that with my level of natural anxiety was uh, not fun. Edit: sorry beaten, though I will say that usually people don’t care about WYSIWYG unless there are competing silhouettes for different datasheets (so like, don’t run ten intercessors as five intercessors and five hellblasters; I’ve proxied a rhino briefly as an impulsor and nobody cared because I had three impulsors and no rhinos in that list) Captain Magic fucked around with this message at 21:09 on Mar 30, 2024 |
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Mar 30, 2024 21:06
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Tangy Zizzle posted:Just got another game in with my Guard. I haven't played since the change, but this brings me great joy to hear. I built my army as mechanized guard originally, time to dust off some officers and run some iron fist squads.
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Mar 30, 2024 22:48
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Virtual Russian posted:I'm going to have to, I've been eyeing the solar aux tanks. My biggest issue is I play Vostroyans, whose entire thing is that they didn't participate in the HH. I'm not about to start another army. If you have a mind to, you've already got a Militia list. Vostroyans seem perfect for the provinces Armory of Old Night and Warrior Ellie. The models are basically in carapace and have lasrifles (instead of lasguns). Plus there's something extra tragic in being Vostroyans that were committed to the Heresy - and then forgotten so hard that their homeworld still pays the price.
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Mar 31, 2024 03:02
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Update on my whole decal ventures: So I got my Microset/ Microsol in the mail the other day and WOW. Microsol really does a ton of heavy lifting. Microset seems to be hit or miss for me in terms of keeping the decals in place, but the way Microsol quickly makes em behave is incredible! The whole process of pressing down on the decal to flatten it only seems to work when the Microsol is added. Maybe I'm not letting the Microset.. set enough? Either way, I'm pretty happy with how the decals came out B) I've got 3 out of my 5 Infernus guys done, including the sergeant.
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Mar 31, 2024 06:25
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I don't particularly like Microset because I find I have to do a lot of maneuvering decals around on a surface after I've placed them, and the microset interferes with that. I've had better luck with just a layer of gloss varnish and then water under the decal. It may be more useful when putting larger decals down on larger surfaces where it’s easier to get placement right the first time,, but I’m mostly putting tiny decals down on space marine pauldrons or knees or whatever where getting it centered is both very tricky and super obvious if it’s wrong. Microsol is fuckin' indispensible. Stephenls fucked around with this message at 08:55 on Mar 31, 2024 |
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Mar 31, 2024 08:50
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Meanwhile I finally got to use the Vallejo Decal Fix and Softener on something. (Admittedly not a 40k model, but still.) Only for me to manage to leave a bit of a mess behind because I applied the underlying varnish and fixer a bit too sloppily. Forgot how goopy that stuff is. (And having the fixer dropper cap explode because there was a blockade.) But that can be covered with weathering. Still need to buy Sol and Set at some point.
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Mar 31, 2024 11:33
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I'm pretty sure Vallejo decal softener and Decal Fix are exactly the same stuff as Microsol/set.
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Mar 31, 2024 11:50
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