Aviation Megathread 10-9: The Kids Are All Rote

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Aviation Megathread 10-9: The Kids Are All Rote

Kwolok: Jan 4, 2022

With cost of living increases and inflation, would the cost to get a PPL be significantly higher now? I live near a small airport with a flight school. I would love to get my PPL, budgeting ~10k for it but I have no idea if that is a reasonable amount of money to expect anymore.

# ¿ Dec 4, 2023 17:46

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# ¿ May 21, 2024 12:32

Kwolok: Jan 4, 2022

Walrusmaster posted:

I finished my PPL in September. I rent from a club that charges $70/hr dry, so call it ~$110 with fuel. My instructor was $65/hr, he's charging $70/hr for new students. I took a total of 65hrs including the Checkride. Here's a breakdown of my costs:

65hrs@$110/hr: $7,150 rental
52 hrs@$65/hr: $3,380 instructor
$1,100 Checkride fee
$550 used ANR headset
$250 online ground school
$150 written test fee
$100 medical
$350 ADS-B receiver
~$300 pilot supplies
You'll likely also want an iPad and foreflight subscription, and renters insurance. Total for subscription and foreflight is ~$500/yr for me, with $10,000 hull coverage and $1M liability. I also pay a $100 annual club membership fee.

Total: ~$13,500 plus annual costs.

Your rental costs are likely to be higher per hour than mine (typically ~$140/hr in southern California) but you can reduce the total hours needed a lot by flying several times a week. I took 2 years to get mine and had to repeat instruction I had forgotten, which gets time consuming and expensive.

Awesome thank you so much. Yeah I live in San Diego and I'm used to paying an extra San Diego tax on everything. Are there any hidden fees or bullshit charges schools or instructors tend to try and sneak in I need to look out for?

# ¿ Dec 4, 2023 23:00

Kwolok: Jan 4, 2022

Walrusmaster posted:

These are all really good points. Block rates are pretty common in socal.

Make sure you get along with your instructor, that your schedule matches well with theirs, and that their teaching style works with your learning style. It can be helpful (if you have the time and money) to try out a few instructors first before selecting one. At a minimum, interview them/ask them about their rates, schedules, recent pass rate, typical number of hours their students take to solo/cross-country/Checkride (with the understanding that everyone is different and learns at a different pace, so don't hold them to a specific number). Not meshing well with an instructor will cost you time, money, and commitment.

It's also helpful to do your night flying in winter since you don't have to stay up so late before it gets dark.

Since you're in San Diego be aware that the marine layer will probably cause scheduling issues from time to time.

I did the ground school online and took my written before starting flight instruction, which I feel saved me some time since I was familiar with concepts before trying them in the plane.

Where would you recommend taking the online courses?

# ¿ Dec 5, 2023 00:45

Kwolok: Jan 4, 2022

Thanks for all the above guys. I've scheduled my class 3 medical exam in a couple days and I'm gonna go talk to my local school following that

# ¿ Dec 5, 2023 08:00

Kwolok: Jan 4, 2022

So my local airport has about 8 different flight schools operating out of it, it seems. Any idea how to sniff out which one would be the best fit for myself? I figure calling all those places for rates and what not seems a hassle but might be worth it in the long run.

# ¿ Dec 6, 2023 20:40

Kwolok: Jan 4, 2022

Sounds good, I'm leaning towards https://www.ltfsd.com/rates

The rates seem good and the site contains a lot of good info. But I'm always nervous about schools because man some of them can be poo poo

# ¿ Dec 6, 2023 22:55

Kwolok: Jan 4, 2022

The beech 18 is cool. Any thoughts on training in a piper Archer vs a Cessna 172?

# ¿ Dec 7, 2023 02:25

Kwolok: Jan 4, 2022

Thanks for the input. Would it be weird for me to request flying both at some point at the flight school? I think trying my hand at either might be the best thing to do.

Also, following my pilot school which I am setting aside 12k for, imagining that I am only flying occasionally as a hobby after my license, and I am not trying to get too crazy wtih further certs/new types, and I don't own but rent a plane, what is the annual cost of flying as a hobby like that?

# ¿ Dec 7, 2023 05:44

Kwolok: Jan 4, 2022

azflyboy posted:

It's not a bad idea at all, since you might find out that there's a problem with the ergonomics or something for you in one type.

At the risk of sounding like a smartass, the cost of hobby flying is basically whatever you want to make it.

A lot of places have a currency requirement for renters, and flying is a fairly perishable skill, so if you're just flying an hour a month, you'll probably maintain a base level of competency, but more is better, obviously within what you can afford.

If you decide you like the whole flying thing, you could also look into joining a flying club or buying a partial share of an airplane, so renting from a school isn't your only option once you have a license.

Post pilots license, is renting a plane about the same cost? ~150 an hour?

# ¿ Dec 7, 2023 06:51

Kwolok: Jan 4, 2022

Cool thanks for all the help everyone. I got my class 3 medical clearance, and I am going to schedule my first flight for a bit later in the month. Time to start shopping for headsets!

# ¿ Dec 7, 2023 07:13

Kwolok: Jan 4, 2022

i am kiss u now posted:

San Diego flyer here. Never heard of that flight school since I fly mostly out of CRQ, but those rates are pretty good for primary trainers. Most of the schools up here charge closer to $200/hr wet for their aircraft but have slightly better avionics and are newer. That place seems fine for getting your private.

One thing I will mention about MYF is that it can quite often be a shitshow down there. From what I've heard and experienced, there are just way too many students, the pattern can be a mess, and I would not have wanted to do any sort of training down there. KSEE, or KCRQ, or even KRNM would be my first choice. Even CRQ can get to be busy but it's not nearly as overrun with students. We had a seminar last year with controllers from the SoCal agencies and tower facilities, and the controllers at KSEE, KRNM, and even down at Brown (KSDM), were begging for traffic. Even if it is a longer commute to the airport, a few extra dollars in car gas is a lot cheaper than an aircraft engine that's running.

Maybe I'm just getting old and grizzled, but my patience for people who are not ready to be flying solo, or have no business flying at all and are just boomer idiots, is just low. Flying and training should be a fun experience at YOUR pace, and when you get moved and sequenced around the airport like an airliner during rush hour at JFK, it just doesn't feel fun. Over the course of my flying, my least favorite flights have been ones where I've been rushed by either controllers, instructors, or both. When you feel rushed, you get behind the plane, when you're behind the plane, you make mistakes and it just doesn't feel good, and is incredibly dangerous. Find a pace that works for you and your learning style and it will be worth it in the end.

If you have any other questions specifically about flying down here, feel free to reach out.

Thanks man I appreciate the insight. I would love to check out other airfield eventually but I live within walking distance of Montgomery so it's hard for me to justify learning elsewhere.

# ¿ Dec 7, 2023 21:19

Kwolok: Jan 4, 2022

What are you're all's opinions on the A20's vs Zulu3 vs One-X's? These are the three I am considering.

# ¿ Dec 8, 2023 09:02

Kwolok: Jan 4, 2022

Walrusmaster posted:

The a30's are also out (the successor to the a20's).

I used a set of refurbished lightspeed Sierras for my flight training and I like them a lot. They're not as nice looking as the Zulus but the ANR works great.

The people suggesting to try them on if you can are giving good advice. Aircraft Spruce has a store where you can try them out in Corona if you don't mind a bit of a road trip. They'll also pick you up at Corona airport if you were to fly in.

Sporty's also has a program where you can try headsets and exchange them if you want to try something different.

Thanks yeah, there is a local pilot supply store near me I'm gonna check out to see if they have samples.

# ¿ Dec 8, 2023 17:20

Kwolok: Jan 4, 2022

Reztes posted:

Again just consider that the 20 minutes extra drive time to Gillespie could easily be made up in time saved from quicker taxis, less time waiting at the end of the runway, shorter flights to the practice area, etc.

I�m also Southern California based and would add I just had a much more pleasant experience with traffic and the controllers at SEE vs MYF.

I�d say your experience checking out the actual schools and instructors would be the tiebreaker though. Quality instruction at a really busy field beats lousy instruction anywhere.

20 minute drive with no traffic but it easily becomes a 45 minute with, and that's just one way. For me, barriers for entry are barriers, and sitting in a plane is at least more time to familiarize myself with the cockpit. And honestly I drive by my airfield all the time and it really never seems that busy...

Like I believe you that it might be the most busy but I wonder if its really that crazy?

# ¿ Dec 8, 2023 20:31

Kwolok: Jan 4, 2022

PT6A posted:

Teaching out of a busy airport, my experience is the following: it's very, very annoying at specific times in your training, specifically in the run-up to going solo for the first time; however, if you plan to fly in and out of busy airports later on, it's not actually any more work to do it from day one, because you will spend the time getting proficient one way or the other.

I meet so many people, some with hundreds of hours, who come here and are completely overwhelmed, even scared, about flying here, and many of them are less proficient at flying in busy airspace than the bare minimum I would accept for one of my students to go solo for the first time. I'm not saying you must train at a busy airport, but if your plans for what you do with your license involve busy airports, I just want you to realize that you are going to spend time and money learning how to do it no matter when you do it.

Time spent transiting to and from the practice area is a different matter, but a good instructor can make use of those times even if you aren't doing the actual exercises, and it's still hours.

This is somewhat how i feel as well.

So I got to try on all the headsets today and I think I found the lightspeed zulu3's the most comfortable. I know they are not TSO'd but I don't ever plan on doing commercial aviation so I don't think that matters. Is there any other "Don't buy this you idiot" things I should know before pulling the trigger on them?

# ¿ Dec 8, 2023 23:19

Kwolok: Jan 4, 2022

dupersaurus posted:

Only if you don�t like being a cool and good-looking rebel that snubs their nose at the Bose/DC mainstream.

I acknowledge that their ANC isn't as good as Bose but they are still quite good. The comfort was great and they feel like they're built like a tank. Yeah the mic can't be swapped but I don't plan on being in the jumpseat at all so who cares?

# ¿ Dec 9, 2023 01:45

Kwolok: Jan 4, 2022

Had my first flight today. In a 172, was pretty great. Going to do another flight in a piper archer on monday to see what I prefer.

# ¿ Dec 16, 2023 09:14

Kwolok: Jan 4, 2022

cigaw posted:

Hell yeah! Both are great training airplanes.

Totally, I think it's going to be hard to pick. I love how the piper Archer looks, and the throttle on it seems way nicer to use, but I feel like the cessna is a safer plane and having more downward visibility feels nice...

# ¿ Dec 16, 2023 21:05

Kwolok: Jan 4, 2022

azflyboy posted:

The safety records for the 172 and Warrior/Archer/Cherokee are similar enough that neither airplane of a similar vintage is inherently safer, since they both have advantages and disadvantages, and most of the accidents they're involved in are down to pilot error of various kinds.

I guess a follow up question: within the cessna family that I could easily jump to attempt much other certifications, how fast can they go? And then comparing that to the same question for Piper's. Eventually once I've learned I'd love to take small trips to LA, so I imagine having access to whatever cruises a little fast is best.

# ¿ Dec 17, 2023 17:51

Kwolok: Jan 4, 2022

Sagebrush posted:

Cessnas and Pipers both go from teeny little slow trainers up to sleek fast twins. Cruise speed is directly proportional to how much money you're willing to spend.

To cruise at more than maybe 150 knots you're going to want to be making tech worker money, and to get above 200 you probably need to be a millionaire.

Right I have begun to realize this looking at my local flyers club rental rates. So let me put this another way: If I wanted to get proficient at a cheap but decently fast (I realize this still means slow but like fast for its class/cost) what type of aircraft should I be looking at.

I only really make enough money for a single engine standard prop aircraft, though I am still a baby who doesn't really know anything at all and am just waxing poetically about what I might do.

# ¿ Dec 17, 2023 20:02

Kwolok: Jan 4, 2022

Awesome thanks for all the thoughtful posts, you're all right, I should just focus on whats in front of me and realistically the minor differences are likely not that bearing all things considered.

# ¿ Dec 18, 2023 01:07

Kwolok: Jan 4, 2022

Arson Daily posted:

Kwolok congrats on taking your first steps toward learning to fly! Have you thought about what the end game post license is going to be? What are you going to use your ticket for? Hundred dollar hamburgers? Transportation to remote and far-ish away places? Just boring holes in the sky and doing trips around the pattern? Any and all are fine goals to have but having a clear goal is helpful to have when inevitably money or time or ambition run low and it will help you to get through those times instead of spending thousands of dollars without having anything to show for it.

I'll say this and it isn't really apropos of anything but these thoughts might be rolling around the back of your head because they sure did mine when I was at that stage of training: regularly renting or even buying an airplane as a means of travel is an extremely tempting and romantic idea that is ultimately pretty pointless unless you have a very specific mission you're trying to accomplish. I got real into wanting to buy a real all weather cross country machine (a Cessna 210 or similar) but realized my wife kids and I could literally fly first class for the rest of our lives with the money we would spend on such an airplane. I'm not trying to discourage you or any one else; just sayin.

Anyway for a hobby 10k to get into it isn't really all that much money and I wish you the best of luck! Also fly the Cessna because Pipers are junk made by meth heads in Florida

These are all good questions. They are similar questions to what people asked me when I told them I was going to get paraglide certified. Was I going to go into acro? Cross country? Etc. four years later and I'm still just content practicing launch and lands and putting around under my wing.

My point being, I adore aviation as a hobby and I'm sure I'll get a similar feeling out of flying. Flying around locally, or to a nearby city or so every now and then to visit someone or just see something new will likely tide me over for a good long while.

My ultimate goal is probably just to take friends on little trips, let them fly with me and experience it as well. Sure that might wear thin eventually but I think this is a good goal. I doubt I'll ever own but there is a really great flyers club here.

# ¿ Dec 18, 2023 06:42

Kwolok: Jan 4, 2022

Welp flew the archer and while I do think the two trainers are similar the archer just feels a bit cooler. I can totally see it being an oven on hot days but it doesn't tend to get too hot here and I think I'm gonna train on it primarily. Thing bucks around in take off though lol

I also did my first landing in it and really bounced down the runway

# ¿ Dec 19, 2023 03:35

Kwolok: Jan 4, 2022

Dumb question: y'all ever worried that we're mucking about with one of the few remaining systems that still use leaded fuel? I know it probably doesn't matter but you hear about what leaded gasoline did to the boomers...

# ¿ Dec 24, 2023 06:09

Kwolok: Jan 4, 2022

azflyboy posted:

From what I can find, annual Avgas consumption in the US is somewhere around 186 million gallons, which is slightly over half the amount of unleaded gas consumed *daily* in the US.

It's obviously not great for people doing fuelling or career flight instructors, but since we know lead is dangerous, small children aren't generally exposed to avgas, and most people in aviation won't have any significant exposure outside of flying GA airplanes, I'm pretty sure most of us are more likely to end up with health issues from various "forever" chemicals than from avgas.

Right I agree with everyone about this, for the general public. But I mean more as a GA pilot, being exposed to avgas and exhaust at a much higher and more concentrated rate than just "general public".

Of course I do live ~1500 meters from one of the most active runways in San Diego so I'm probably hosed anyway.

# ¿ Dec 24, 2023 07:49

Kwolok: Jan 4, 2022

Are there any aircraft or training that involves landing an aircraft using instruments only? I was under the impression that only super duper mega advanced jet liners had auto land, but I am not actually sure how that goes but my friends dad was saying how he had to land aircraft using only instruments back during the vietnam era (T-28/T-34 were what he trained on). That seems... odd to me, and not exactly practical for the instruments they had back then...

Kwolok fucked around with this message at 08:41 on Dec 26, 2023

# ¿ Dec 26, 2023 08:39

Kwolok: Jan 4, 2022

Take off, sure, but landing?

# ¿ Dec 26, 2023 09:44

Kwolok: Jan 4, 2022

Theris posted:

That starts at 18:56.

ILS - still the most precise landing guidance available today, although augmented GPS gets close - was developed in the '40s and was basically everywhere but small airports by the '60s. There is no information displayed in a modern glass cockpit that is required for an instrument landing that would not have been available in the cockpit of a military trainer in the '60s, it just would have been displayed on analog instruments instead of an LCD or CRT. There are shitloads of planes flying today - and conducting instrument landings - with the same instruments as your friend's dad's T-34.

I suspect this might be a terminology thing since you mentioned autoland, which can take a plane down to the runway and rollout even in absolute 0 visibility. A hand flown instrument approach only takes you down to a minimum altitude (usually between 100-400 feet above the runway) at which point you have to be able to see the runway and conduct the very last part of the approach visually. You might not consider that "landing on instruments" since some (very small) portion of the approach is visual, but if you try to tell a pilot who hand flew an ILS approach down to minimums without being able to see anything outside until those minimums that they didn't "land on instruments," they'd look at you like your head was on backwards.

Right so maybe I should have been more clear, I know you can capture the ils and have it take you down but he is saying he had to fully land and bring the plane to a stop using only instruments.

And mainly I'm curious about his claim of the old trainers during Vietnam and less about if any modern planes can.

Kwolok fucked around with this message at 20:02 on Dec 26, 2023

# ¿ Dec 26, 2023 19:41

Kwolok: Jan 4, 2022

cigaw posted:

I thought the video covered that pretty well. It might sound ridiculous at first but we consistently disregard old technology as limited while forgetting that we went to the moon using wire coils to store computed information.

Doolittle did the first takeoff, flight and landing relying solely on flight instruments in 1929. Not a huge stretch to consider that the military might have been doing something similar with a few additional decades of technology development.

Right I watched the video, maybe I missed something, but it seemed to only show the approach to landing, then go around procedure, then a visual full stop landing. Maybe I missed it but I don't think the video shows a full ifr landing with no visual element, only how you do the ifr approach.

Edit: bearing in mind I'm an aviation baby so I could be missing several things

# ¿ Dec 26, 2023 22:14

Kwolok: Jan 4, 2022

Still doing some research into ground schools and came across this: https://www.learnthefinerpoints.com/ground-school

Anyone have any insight, it seems pretty great and people online seem to have a great deal of respect for the people behind it, but like everything on the internet, I am always a bit leery.

# ¿ Jan 2, 2024 23:37

Kwolok: Jan 4, 2022

As someone going through my first few instructed flights (Just practiced power on stalls), its crazy to me hwo people can be so careless with flying. Like I am overly anal no doubt, but its just mind boggling to me you can be that bad and so carefree about it.

# ¿ Jan 12, 2024 04:43

Kwolok: Jan 4, 2022

Animal posted:

The problem is that she didn't know what she didn't know. Her instructors really did fail. From watching her talk in her videos I get a feeling that she genuinely wanted to do well. She even fired one of the CFI's for being too lax on her and too helpful instead of teaching her to be a good instrument pilot.

Man I got the absolute opposite from watching that. I don't disagree at all that her instructors categorically failed her, and yes it is hard to not know what you don't know, but it's not like she was insulated from the aviation community, she was vlogging her experience, I'm sure she was aware of her mistakes (and she often commented on them as though they were more funny than terrifying).

I agree that her instructors are the first line of defense and they should all be looked at under a microscope after this, but I can't help but feel like she did not have the right attitude or attention for this field.

# ¿ Jan 12, 2024 05:21

Kwolok: Jan 4, 2022

How in the heck does that kind of discussion even organically happen over VHF :psyduck:

# ¿ Jan 14, 2024 01:18

Kwolok: Jan 4, 2022

Realistically, if I'm just a basic GA pilot who isn't allowed to receive payment from my passengers, do you ever get in trouble for things like, "yeah I didn't accept payment from my passengers but they bought me lunch and dinner" kinda thing?

# ¿ Jan 14, 2024 20:03

Kwolok: Jan 4, 2022

We talked a bit earlier about leaded fuel and now I am paranoid. I just bought my own fuel dip guage and sump but I don't know how to store it, I'd like to not constantly just get leaded fuel over my other poo poo. What would the best container be for this to keep it seperate from my other gear?

# ¿ Jan 18, 2024 02:12

Kwolok: Jan 4, 2022

Sagebrush posted:

A Ziploc bag is fine.

OK cool. A part of my brain was like "Won't jet fuel just eat through that plastic?" but the dip gauge is plastic as well sooo

# ¿ Jan 18, 2024 02:32

Kwolok: Jan 4, 2022

Trip report: I will now be the local GA weirdo who dons latex gloves, and keeps his dip gauge and fuel tester in a ziplock bag which is also in a separate bag attached to the outside of my backpack. gently caress lead man, I just don't wanna risk it.

# ¿ Jan 24, 2024 18:41

Kwolok: Jan 4, 2022

Yeah I don't want to freak anyone out. Its most likely that regular occasional incidental exposure to avgas is fine. But I don't want to risk it having seen what leaded gas did to an entire generation.

# ¿ Jan 24, 2024 20:49

Kwolok: Jan 4, 2022

dupersaurus posted:

Not to downplay risks of taking lead baths, but that�s from inhaled lead exposure, not contact exposure

For sure but we do also know it can be absorbed through the skin, even if at a much lower rate.

# ¿ Jan 24, 2024 21:47

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# ¿ May 21, 2024 12:32

Kwolok: Jan 4, 2022

Sagebrush posted:

Obviously zero lead exposure is the safest level.

That said,

There is a huge difference between occasionally getting a few drops of 0.5% leaded gasoline on your fingertips, and living in an environment where each of the millions of cars on the road is spewing vaporized lead freely into the air. Into the playgrounds, into your yard, along the sidewalks, into your garage, directly into your air intakes as you drive down the highway...and even at that level, it wasn't enough to cause acute lead poisoning, just Boomer-brain-level brain damage.

Furthermore, while anybody can get lead poisoning, it is far more dangerous to children with developing brains than it is to adults. Once you're older than about 25, you're out of that danger zone and trace amounts no longer have the same effect.

I personally try not to get 100LL on my hands, and I'm certainly not the old boomer pilot who told me he checks his fuel levels by how many knuckles are covered when he sticks his finger into the gas hole, but I'm not bothered if I touch a few drops while I'm sumping fuel. I probably get just as much lead exposure from soldering anyway. I just wash my hands.

I'm not sure why you are trying to convince us to use less precaution. It takes me 2 additional seconds to put on gloves before doing my fuel checks. If you want to assume more risk go for it. I'd prefer to assume zero risk for something that affects my mental capacity.

# ¿ Jan 24, 2024 22:47

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