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The mass evacuation order may or may not have been intended as a ruse, but according to reporting on the ground they bombed a civilian/medical convoy of ~30 vehicles that was complying with the order.
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Oct 13, 2023 18:13
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Calvin Johnson Jr. posted:I don't understand what Hamas' goal was here. They're giving the green light to a military that they are nowhere on par with; pulling a 1500+ *civilian* death toll seems like it would only invite condemnation on themselves almost universally. I mean Israel displaced and continues to displace people and I think most people would agree being driven from their homes en masse would create a lot of hatred and desire for retaliation. Then I look at Israel's side and it seems like they look at this as an existential threat and feel like they can push the line further because of that. I'm trying to be respectful in this thread and I know the conflict is complicated; but it just seems like Hamas self-sabotaged themselves and innocent people are going to pay for it. Israel will have complete air dominance and I don't know what anyone can say to them to stop them from retaliating disproportionately. I can't imagine America intervening on Palestine's behalf either despite what Israel does; isn't this what the evangelicals want? As far as I can tell Hamas' logic is that of a person stranded on an island burning down their hut and shouting while they watch a passing ship sail away over the horizon. The other Arab states are slowly normalising relations with Israel because their leaderships like money. Once that happens what support they did provide to the Palestinians inside the West Bank and the concentration camp we call Gaza will dwindle and eventually cease. And so will the Palestinian population in those places. As loving horrible as recent events are, it probably made sense to Hamas in as much as it throws a wrench into that normalisation of relationships, which buys them some time before their support goes. Yes an insane number of their own people would die, but as a population they were already being slowly and not very discretely murdered. This way the fight would continue for a while longer, and who knows, maybe Israel goes too far too quickly and the world decides its not actually ok with watching another genocide. Or more realistically it would simply become domestically impossible for the Arab states to normalise with Israel for a few years/generation because of the outrage in their own peoples. Israel by its nature as an apartheid state always reacts disproportionately, so goading them into a ground invasion that both outrages observers and potentially punishes the IDF would be a realistically achievable goal, and it's worked before. Hamas obviously didn't expect the IDF and intelligence agencies to fundamentally fail in every aspect of their duty, so they probably weren't anticipating the scale of what their raid would achieve in terms of casualties, and thus the reaction they are going to see though. Over recent decades Israel have turned away from every avenue that doesn't end with all the Palestinians of the Occupied Territories gone, either through death or exile - and it bears pointing at that the ones in Gaza cannot get out. The relative quiet in Gaza before this week was, by Netanyahu's own words, because they were focussing on clearing the West Bank of Palestinians, and he thought Hamas was cowed by the carrot and stick of 'mowing the grass' (periodic military actions to kill Gazans) and allowing some people out of the prison to work for money. So yeah, I think there is a logic and reasoning to what they did, but I don't think it's particularly relatable to any of us living normal lives in western countries. Edit: gently caress. https://twitter.com/LarryAlbertGil/status/1712920117829341270 Lovely Joe Stalin fucked around with this message at 07:23 on Oct 14, 2023 |
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Oct 14, 2023 07:13
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The deliberate complete destruction of entire lands and peoples as the primary goal was not a common feature of historical warfare. Yes it happened, but it was not normal. What we are seeing in Gaza isn't collateral damage, it's not a disregard for hitting civilians to get to the enemy. The deliberate eradication of the civilian population and their culture is the goal. This isn't the Sack of Badajoz, it is the fall of Carthage. Edit: didnt' see the message, dropping it.
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Oct 14, 2023 17:28
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I think Occam's razor says it was absolutely the Israelis given they are bombing the entire city, have a decades long history of targeting medical personnel, and are also now being reported to have hit a UN school (which are designated shelters). Edit: Second hand information but apparently the IDF are simultaneously saying it was a Hamas rocket and also the IDF were targeting secret tunnels under the hospital. Meanwhile, people have been sheltering in hospital grounds and carparks because they thought they were less likely to be hit. So gently caress knows what the actual death toll from this is. https://twitter.com/WarMonitors/status/1714337776873640216 You only see the explosion at night from a distance. But still, content warning. I don't think Hamas' rockets tend to have that much power in them. Lovely Joe Stalin fucked around with this message at 19:24 on Oct 17, 2023 |
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Oct 17, 2023 19:10
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It means nothing. They say the same sort of thing when they shoot journalists dead.
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Oct 17, 2023 20:04
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notwithoutmyanus posted:
Well the video of the bombing takes place in a blacked out city at night and seems to be orders of magnitude more powerful than the usual Hamas ordnance, and the video doing the rounds to support the IDF story of it being a misfire shows lit up buildings and has been dated to two years ago. So no, on the balance of probabilities I'm pretty comfortable assuming this was an Israeli strike unless some pretty loving compelling evidence turns up beyond the IDF's usual "a naughty dog did it".
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Oct 17, 2023 20:46
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They didn't make the mistake of leaving the timestamps on that one.
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Oct 18, 2023 01:47
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The thing that really gets me about the theory of it being a Palestinian weapon is that if Hamas or IJ had anything vaguely that powerful, they would have used it in the initial attack when they knew they were going to saturate Iron Dome. It would have been the perfect time to put it into an actually valuable target. Not now, when rocket fire has become relatively desultory and the Israeli defences are functioning again.
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Oct 18, 2023 03:31
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Yeah, generally speaking, ammo dumps don't go up in one big floof.
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Oct 18, 2023 04:40
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This is a report on the hospital situation by the UK's most consistently rigorous and objective news broadcaster. In brief, they conclude that the IDF audio evidence is fake. The IDF explanation for the missile launch sites and trajectories is inconsistent and contradictory. The damage to the ground is not inconsistent with it being an IDF munition. That shitloads of people were there and did die. The IDF lie about murdering people all the time. And that there's no way to be sure who launched the weapon without independent investigation on the ground, which isn't happening any time soon. Warning for a blurred out carpet of bodies in the aftermath. https://www.channel4.com/news/who-was-behind-the-gaza-hospital-blast-visual-investigation Edit: and here's a near repeat from tonight at a different hospital https://twitter.com/PalestineRCS/status/1714721700028293171 Lovely Joe Stalin fucked around with this message at 00:29 on Oct 19, 2023 |
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Oct 19, 2023 00:26
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mlmp08 posted:This won’t tell you who did it, but it will point out inconsistencies in various stories. Another one to throw on the pile of news organisations saying "this doesn't make sense". https://twitter.com/AJEnglish/status/1714984258358391057
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Oct 19, 2023 17:13
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Stultus Maximus posted:Everyone who matters is entrenched in their opinion and no evidence will change minds. Israel will never admit it if it’s them and the Arabs who read Protocols unironically (and there are lots) will never believe it isn’t a Jewish plot. Okay, but what about the rest of us? And why did you feel the need to smear Palestinians in that particular way? That was a weird response to interesting and valuable insight. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 21, 2023 02:53
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Lum_ posted:The Hamas Charter literally quotes from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Mahmoud Abbas has made Holocaust denial his scholarly lifetime work. A bent towards conspiracy theories among the Palestinian leadership is well documented. What I was responding to was a post carrying the message that knowing who committed an atrocity is irrelevant because the nation doing a genocide don't care, and Arabs are racists. He didn't mention Hamas, or even Palestinians. Just Arabs. Which is a hosed thing to say before you even get to the part where the rest of the world is excluded from the list of interested parties. Kith posted:i thought the point of this thread was to very explicitly not have d&d style slapfights and gotchas and similar bullshit It becomes hard to stick to that when someone decides to use Nothing Matters and some racism to distract from and dismiss actual independent academic evidence of what's happening when people provide it. Lovely Joe Stalin fucked around with this message at 16:40 on Oct 21, 2023 |
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Oct 21, 2023 16:36
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Someone in the D&D thread found out what it was as well. It legitimately does seem they're passing off a book with a conveniently scary name & "Al-Qaeda" in English on the cover as super secret plans for doom weapons. And journalists are stupid enough or corrupt enough to go with it.Noise Complaint posted:This is just the cover of a 2010 book about an Al-Qaeda leader, Ramzy Youssef, called The Provisions of Jihad in Islam. Lovely Joe Stalin fucked around with this message at 04:23 on Oct 23, 2023 |
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Oct 23, 2023 04:18
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He's their Gaza Bureau Chief. They killed his wife, son, daughter, and grandson iirc.
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Oct 28, 2023 06:58
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I generally avoid videos of this stuff, but there's a gore-free body cam video where a Hamas man climbs out of a prepared (reinforced walls) pit disguised under a bush in relatively open scrub ground. He runs maybe ten yards, places (not throws) some sort of charge on the engine deck of a Merkava under the turret, and then runs away back to his foxhole. Apparently without being seen or fired upon. All the while talking/yelling in, as you'd expect, a degree of excitement. There is at least one other armoured vehicle in the video but no sign of infantry. As the charge goes off the last thing you see in the smoke is him and another guy prepping their RPGs. I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen it myself. He shouldn't have gotten anywhere near the tank, let alone made it back. I assume the infantry are buttoned up in their carriers and to hell with sane armour doctrine.
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Nov 3, 2023 09:37
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While the American public seem like they might be starting to wake up to what Israel is and does, in the UK most people already knew, and it wasn't particularly controversial until recently for a politician to criticise Israel in a way American politicians never would. That's been changing though, at least on the political level. A few years ago there was a major push with lots of money from the Israeli government to influence the UK's politicians and media to be more pro-Israel. A guy called Shai Masot from the Israeli embassy was secretly filmed bragging about the money allocated to take down unsympathetic MPs and was later sent home with promises he wasn't a spy. It coincided with the cynical weaponising of anti-semitism accusations to destroy a fiercely anti-racist social-democrat who accidentally became leader of the Labour party, and to purge Labour of its left wing. Now we have the leader of what was a staunchly pro-Palestinian Labour party happily endorsing Israel's warcrimes. The Tory Home Secretary declaring pro-palestine sentiment hate crime. And entities like The Campaign Against Antisemitism being quoted in The Guardian calling on the government to deploy soldiers onto the streets to stop lawful pro-Palestine demonstrations, because the police refused to bow to political pressure to ban them. The Campaign Against Antisemitism being a charity initially funded by the Jewish National Fund (the Israeli settlement funding org) and set up around the time Masot was active. And presently under investigation for not meeting the non-political requirements for a charity.
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Nov 9, 2023 16:06
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It's reached the point in the campaign where crowds of civilians ordered to evacuate a hospital, men, women and children, all waving white rags, are being shot at on video by the Israelis. Which feels like a quaint return to normality by Israel's standards.
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Nov 10, 2023 17:22
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They might be missing it, or they may be taking the position that nothing could possibly justify bombing a hospital that is sheltering 50,000 people (and most of the journalists).
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Nov 10, 2023 18:00
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Still having trouble getting over the reality of Cums Force, but yes, the absolute silence over what they found in the hospital almost certainly confirms that A) there was nothing there to justify what Israel did to supposedly protected sites, B) we'll get some desperately thrown together 'proof' tomorrow or the day after.
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Nov 15, 2023 17:09
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Hekk posted:As long as we are getting things right most of the time, we are doing better than many. That's not actually a good defense for probing people having normal grown-up conversations that are on topic. And there are other threads on this subject active elsewhere on SA that have been open this whole time. Speaking of the topic:  For how reliable a source this is, this guy was a prospective candidate for the Labour party in the UK in 2018, but was removed after allegations of anti-semitic comments. Which doesn't actually mean he was anti-semitic (internal party purging used it as an excuse) but does mean he's pro-Palestine. So not the most objective source, but probably more reliable than an average twitter rando. I can absolutely see Israel posting video of shiny new tunnel entrances surrounded by bulldozed hospital in the next few days and refusing to explain why they didn't show them sooner.
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Nov 16, 2023 19:43
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That looks less like a tunnel entrance and more like the IDF dug through to a basement they knew was there. To me anyway.
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Nov 16, 2023 21:51
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Talking of things being made up. https://twitter.com/ShonaMurray_/status/1725460753748992229 I am shocked by this twist. Guess there's no choice but to head south and flatten everything there as well.
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Nov 17, 2023 17:50
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I am actually surprised if they really are giving up on saying the Shifa was HQ, I was expecting them to ship props in for a few days and then show off Dr Evil's lair.
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Nov 17, 2023 17:52
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Turns out the body count at the rave was, at least in part, the result of an IDF gunship lighting up party goers. The more that comes out about the IDF response on that day the more it seems they really did just not give a gently caress about separating their own people from the hostiles. Blue on blue between disparate infantry units stumbling over each other while there was no clear C&C I can understand, but stuff like this or the tanks apparently firing on houses with hostages in as prelim to clearing them, it's nuts. https://twitter.com/AliAbunimah/status/1725958732113162579?t=DEj5cTnSYE6FBaE_VTMYfQ&s=19
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Nov 19, 2023 00:32
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I hesitate to ask, but was he just firing into the crowd? I don't remember talk of a helicopter at all, so either I missed it or wrote it off as so outlandishly unlikely it wasn't worth remembering.
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Nov 19, 2023 01:03
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TheWeedNumber posted:Just didn’t think they’d be going full warhammer 40k on everyone involved, including their own people. They even have apothecaries collecting geneseed.
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Nov 19, 2023 01:09
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Kazinsal posted:I give it less than 48 hours before one side or the other (or maybe both at the same time) break the ceasefire. Historically Hamas are actually pretty good at keeping ceasefires. Or, at least, Israel beats them to the punch on breaking them.
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Nov 19, 2023 05:19
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Thinking about the modern version of Dolph Lundgren's trophy necklace from Universal Soldier and I am not happy.
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Nov 21, 2023 22:28
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I'd have said they look a lot like they were hit by weapons powerful enough to mangle them. Perhaps of the sort carried by attack helicopters.
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Nov 27, 2023 03:54
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Cugel the Clever posted:So is the assertion that the majority of those Israelis killed at the festival were sitting idly in their cars in the parking lot? I've said gently caress all about the majority of anything. Don't put words in my mouth. I said that the pictured vehicles looked to me like something heavy had gone off amongst them. In reply to someone else saying they look like normally burnt out vehicles, which they clearly do not. The vehicles in that picture having been damaged by helicopter borne weapons would be entirely in keeping with the Israeli investigation findings reported in the Israeli press. I'm not wrapping my posts in tin foil, I'm commenting on the picture posted here and the reported events which would rationally explain it. Lovely Joe Stalin fucked around with this message at 07:37 on Nov 27, 2023 |
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Nov 27, 2023 07:32
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Musk has a phenomenally strange chest shape so I assume it's to do with that.
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Nov 29, 2023 17:26
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Israel are going to bury all the vehicles from the rave so I guess no one will ever be able to give an independent verdict. Weird that.
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Nov 30, 2023 18:40
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:Okay, but there were a bunch of survivors who said that the Hamas guys were just shooting people left and right. I saw one video that was probably taken from a surveillance camera of a guy actually shooting people in the back as they ran away from that festival. And you can disbelieve the witness accounts, but the basic problem -- as I look at it -- isn't convincing me of that, it's convincing the Israelis that Hamas isn't trying to kill them. You know? What are they going to say? "Oh sorry we didn't realize that it was our own guys who did the festival attack and not Hamas" and then stop trying to destroy them? Doesn't seem likely to me. I don't know why you're replying as if I said Hamas didn't kill people, and I also really don't give a poo poo what the privileged group of an apartheid state think about anything to be honest. The fear of Hamas is a cultivated excuse to justify the hatred and repression already present in that society. Hamas itself is a cultivated excuse.
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Nov 30, 2023 19:27
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wins32767 posted:The problem is that you’ve decided that a group of humans is bad and therefore not worthy of being treated as fully human. In your last two posts you’ve assumed the worst about their motives and said you don’t care about their fears. Dehumanizing anyone is a problem. I'm sorry, am I meant to be sympathetic towards the Apartheid society overwhelmingly enthusiastic about committing genocide? To accuse me of dehumanisation in this particular context is pretty loving rum. Potato Salad posted:What is prejudicing some people so thoroughly that they readily infer such an extreme position, the gay stalin avatar? I have noticed that yes, for some people in some threads it actually is. It's both funny and depressing.
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Nov 30, 2023 22:12
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wins32767 posted:Your arguments have the same moral architecture though: a set of people are doing something that violates my values so they no longer need to be treated with respect. You’re using a different set of values but you’re still ending up with “these people are not worth treating with the same respect as the people I like more”. I posted pertinent factual information relevant to both events at hand and the topic in general. Someone used that as a non sequitur opening to talk about how we should take the internal justification for genocide seriously and sympathetically. I refused that invitation. I never argued that the dead children, or Israelis in general, had no value or deserved to die. Seriously, please stop doing this strawman poo poo. It's weird, and in this specific instance it's repugnant.
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Dec 1, 2023 05:27
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pmchem posted:This conflict is really difficult for people to discuss because there’s decades of abhorrent behavior by both major sides, and currently there are outside cheerleaders (talking beyond just SA) endorsing forms of terrorism and war crimes. Plus disinfo and conspiracy theories to rival what was seen early in the run up to the RUS invasion. I don't entirely disagree with you, but what's happening to the Palestinians right now is a fairly text book genocide. and eclipses anything the Palestinian groups have ever done or could do, no matter how awful. It's a genocide which scholars of the subject have noted as being atypical only because of just how brazen the Israeli political and military leadership has been in using genocidal rhetoric. People are going to get upset if they perceive someone to be justifying or denying it, even if calmly and politely.
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Dec 4, 2023 17:23
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Given no one found a weapons cache, and the Israelis were trying to frame some Brazilians as Hamas terrorists about to launch an op the other week, I'm inclined toward scepticism.
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Dec 15, 2023 23:32
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A belligerent's commerce is an entirely legitimate target.
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Jan 30, 2024 02:57
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Stultus Maximus posted:Civilian shipping is explicitly protected under the Geneva Conventions and attacking it is a war crime. Yes that is true. Unfortunately our governments decided the Conventions don't matter in this conflict, so other parties are more likely to also break them. And on the national level our moral authority to say "that's naughty" is rendered laughable.
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Mar 7, 2024 18:51
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