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Some quick napkin math for perspective, but in in terms of civilian casualties relative to total population Hamas's attack is an order of magnitude worse than 9-11. Or to put it another way, if Al Qaeda killed the same rough percentage of the population as Hamas just did then 9-11 would have been on the order of twenty to thirty thousand dead. Absolutely a complete failure by the Israeli government to let this happen on their watch.
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Oct 10, 2023 20:12
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Stultus Maximus posted:holy poo poo the internet is full of the worst possible takes and somehow a bunch of broke brained vets on a dead comedy site are the most sane I'll encounter.
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Oct 10, 2023 23:29
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Before the birth of modern Zionism, Palestine was already one of if not the most heavily Jewish populated regions in the world as a percentage of the population, with some sources suggesting as high as 10%. Even if Zionism never happened there would have been enough Jewish communities in Palestine to demand their own separate state following British decolonization. Note, there are western countries such as Russia that ghettoized their Jewish populations and the Jewish percentages of the regions containing ghettos were much high than in countries where Jews had free movement, and in those cases the Jewish population is usually averaged over the entire country's population or the larger regions the ghettoized Jews were mostly expelled from. Israel is a settler colonialist state because it is colonizing, displacing, and genociding Palestinians in the west bank and gaza. Israelis living in settlements in occupied Palestine are settlers and colonists and Israel should dismantle them and repatriate the inhabitants to Israel proper. Israelis living in the recognized borders of Israel outside of Palestine are not settlers or colonists to the extent they are not actively participating in those crimes against humanity and have as much of a right to live in the region as the Palestinians do. Sderot is inside the green line and pre-67 borders and therefore outside the territory Palestine claims, yet I've seen plenty of folks, including folks on this forum, call the murdered civilians there "colonists" and "settler occupiers". It's also been my personal experience that folks using settler occupier language to describe every civilian in Israel outside of Palestine's claimed borders are simply performing the requisite dehumanization to feel comfortable calling for the ethnic cleansing of all Jewish people from the region. psydude posted:You're really missing the point here - the majority of Israelis are native to Israel just like the Palestinians. There can be more than one ethnic/religious group that have long historical ties to a region.
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Oct 11, 2023 16:09
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CNN reporting that US intelligence officials claim Iran was surprised to learn of Hamas's attack. https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/11/politics/us-intelligence-iran-hamas-doubt/index.html
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Oct 11, 2023 18:27
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Yeah it absolutely reeks of the kind of non-factual stuff that spreads extremely rapidly during wars and if there was hard evidence of it it's almost unfathomable that IDF would not be making sure every human on earth had seen the evidence. For obvious reasons as just a person I hope it isn't true, but yeah investigators will do their work and we'll know soon enough. To the extent we have sources reporting on the most egregious of Hamas's crimes against humanity, it's western journalists from mainstream media sources are reporting statements from front line soldiers and first responders. It's also worth noting that the IDF didn't outright deny it but simply said they didn't have enough information to confirm. Forgive me for not dredging up the links but I know at least some of those statements are in the CBS articles already posted. I'm also not mainlining updates as they come in because I can only take so much so apologies if the above has been overtaken by new information. Beheaded babies is obviously the most horrific and attention getting, but other western journalists have reported Israeli soldiers and first responders claiming they've seen bodies that were bound and showed signs of torture. I'm hoping bulletsponge is right that the worst of the mutilation claims are telephone nonsense from observers unused to the grotesque and horrific injuries caused by modern weapons. I also loving hate that this is the silver lining to hope for. Hamas forces also held some of these communities for hours upon hours and had sufficient control to exfiltrate civilian hostages. I think we have enough evidence to believe Hamas did torture and summarily execute civilian captives in areas they controlled. Humans being humans, and Hamas being what they are I think we can safely believe Hamas fighters were racking up SEAL level brutalities even if we don't know the exact details. bulletsponge13 posted:The problem is, Fivemarks has a valid points. I don't think anyone here disagrees with unfairness in the media emphasizing Palestinian war crimes and emphasizing Israeli victims while downplaying Israeli war crimes and downplaying Palestinian victims. But Hamas is an enthoreligious supremacist organization that wants a global genocide of the Jewish people. There is literally nothing Israel can do short of mass ritual suicide that Hamas won't see has justification for continued war crimes.
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Oct 12, 2023 15:16
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bulletsponge13 posted:Both sides have the same desired outcome, then, but the Israelis have the head start on the ethnic cleansing. There is no international force either side would trust to fairly administer the region and it would immediately devolve into a counterinsurgency free for all. We absolutely should have sympathy for people in Gaza. They're stuck between living under an Israeli siege and randomly having their families exploded in an airstrike on the one hand and living under a Hamas regime that violently took power and is imposing Islamist restrictions on the population. As an aside Hamas and the ultra orthodox settlers really are a mirror image of each other. That's why it's important to remember that Hamas and the people of Gaza are not one and the same. Fatah and the Palestinian government in the west bank is officially committed to a non-violent two state solution despite the pogroms and land grabs from Israeli settler militias. I agree we should expect hatred and lashing out but we should be careful about removing the agency in going from legitimate trauma and rage to "and now I must war crime harder than you" even if that is a fundamentally human response as we've seen across history.
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Oct 12, 2023 15:51
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Just gonna chime in that part of the reason Bibi and his allies are crippling the Israeli Supreme Court is because they're pissed at the amount of legal review and law of war compliance analysis the IAF has to do when planning their air strikes to meet their constitutional obligations to confirm to the rules of war. This government wants significantly less legal oversight and accountability over IDF operations.
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Oct 12, 2023 16:21
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If you or anyone you know feel the need to donate and want to feel confident the money is going to actual humanitarian aid, Doctors Without Borders is a solid choice. I recently heard from a friend who used to work for an education nonprofit in Israel and Palestine and he spoke very highly of the MSF operations in Gaza.
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Oct 12, 2023 19:10
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Radical 90s Wizard posted:This is the sort of poo poo I honestly don't get. Because yea, any civ deaths are awful, but what do you think is constantly happening in Gaza ? Why do you think they are ignoring one side of this? Why do you think they are clearly saying Palestinian lives don't matter? I literally cannot understand how someone could reach those conclusions from the post and the context of what that post is replying to. I don't know. It feels like anytime someone expressed outrage at one side's war crime it's immediately seen by some others as deliberately ignoring or outright endorsing the other sides war crimes. It's exhausting that this keeps happening and it feels like so many posts on the subject end up having lists of war crimes from both sides to denounce only for someone to say "well you forgot this other war crime so obviously you're supporting it". I'm not mad at you specifically, I'm just exhausted because it seems like everyone is hurting and on a hair trigger, myself definitely included.
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Oct 13, 2023 00:24
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bulletsponge13 posted:They bomb whether there is a military target or not, my dude. Well yeah, once they show Hamas that human shields don't work Hamas will stop using them. So really the IAF is saving civilians by murdering civilians. (This is sarcasm, gently caress the IAF)
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Oct 13, 2023 00:43
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Radical 90s Wizard posted:Honestly it's a culmination of all the media and official statements being so one sided, but here specifically this dude posted basically "we shouldn't take it for granted that these loving insane allegations are facts" and the guy I quoted immediately abusing him for it. I dunno anything about either of those posters, maybe one of them has a history of being full of poo poo, but his posts didn't seem particularly egregious to me. The poster he was so outraged at was so full of poo poo they were told to leave this thread. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 13, 2023 03:00
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My brain wants to insist those are renders from the next Call of Duty game and not a city where millions live.
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Oct 13, 2023 03:08
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ASAPI posted:they are just knee jerking their way through this and hoping their lack of planning/leadership/goals can be forgiven if they drop enough ordinance.
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Oct 13, 2023 13:41
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I don't think Israel of all countries wants to open the can of worms that begins with "all citizens are collectively responsible for overthrowing a repressive, genocidal regime"
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Oct 13, 2023 17:50
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In all the talk about Palestinian desperation it's worth remembering that Hamas is not the Palestinian people, even if Hamas claims otherwise. Hamas is a genocidal organization for whom killing Jews is just as important if not more important than actually doing anything to help the Palestinian people under the occupation. I also tentatively agree with the theory that Hamas saw this as a window of maximum relative strength. Between Israeli infighting and IDF units threatening desertion over Bibi going full fash and the gulf states normalizing Israel as a counterbalance to Iran, Hamas likely felt that Israel's position in the future is only going to strengthen. So even if Hamas can't win right now better to order your troops to go down fighting and kill as many Jews as possible. An organizational level suicide bombing essentially.
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Oct 14, 2023 13:44
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BUUNNI posted:Worth remembering Israel is also claiming otherwise Did I say otherwise? This thread clearly doesn't need to be reminded of this. I was speaking up because it felt like the "well they're desperate" talk was starting to push the line of saying massacred Israeli children deserved it because of Israel's policy of gradual genocide. Like whatever the gently caress this is: BUUNNI posted:By doing this the Israelis also gave permission for their citizens to be legitimate targets since they are technically responsible for selecting their genocidal state.
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Oct 14, 2023 14:45
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| # ¿ May 16, 2024 18:56 |
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Borscht posted:This may be the hottest take of the thread but I love YouTube premium. It’s the only streaming service I have.
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Oct 14, 2023 15:39
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