|
Cugel the Clever posted:Gotta say, an ouroboros of "what if we responded to war crimes with our own war crimes" does not lead to great results. We just have to war crime harder than the other guy in the second half.
|
#
¿
Oct 10, 2023 16:02
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ May 16, 2024 16:48 |
|
|
Israel needs to prepare to fight a real insurgency, not just shooting unarmed rioters. I have little doubt that they have experienced and trained guerrillas in Israel, along with sleeper elements. These guys will have either experience or trained by guys with experience fighting the US in the region. From a military science standpoint, Hamas has impressed and really had their poo poo together. From the symbolism of the date, to Unconventional and conventional warfare tactics used so far.
|
|
#
¿
Oct 10, 2023 17:22
|
|
|
Arione posted:Personally? No I wasnt born until 87. If you want to be technical, the idea of war crimes started with organized warfare. They weren't formalized, but they existed. The idea of civilians in warfare is relatively recent; in conflict throughout history, the civilian populace was part of the conflict- and pay- of the armies. War Crimes involve more than civilains, and civilians deaths aren't always a war crime, so I'm a little confused on that. If civilians are killed in a legitimate hit against legitimate targets, it isn't a war crime. And that ignores the reality of irregular warfare, where forces may not be uniformed. America with it's GWOT also created a new Grey area of the legal treatment of 'enemy combatants' which gives the precedents for others to follow. That's before we get into the intricacies of the conflict itself. Also, not sure if you were being sarcastic about your US War Crimes synopsis, but uh...we are the loving Pros at it. There isn't a single country or conflict the US entered into that didn't have the US commit pretty deplorable poo poo- our history makes it look like bombing civilians is a hobby. WW2 was practice, post WW2 was the game. Reminder- the US has a law that we will bomb the loving ICC of they attempt to arrest/try any American. It was passed in 2003 to protect US leadership from consequences of Iraq and AFG. I can't think of a single war where the US didn't violate the agreed upon laws of warfare.
|
|
#
¿
Oct 10, 2023 21:51
|
|
|
The biggest problem is the Israeli government PR/propaganda machine is totally symbiotic with the American media, and they are making and releasing fake news stories from fictional channels. One I've seen passed around is an obvious fake news team doing a piece on beheaded babies. It appears completely staged. Israel not only funnels billions into the MIC, they also spend billions buying politicians with Super PACs, they also spend 100s of millions in PR and media manipulators. They are completely tied to the evangelical and American right wing, and they have had a low level focus on indoctrination and information warfare. They will rule the propaganda side here. I'm sure they are just as flawed and biased, but I've always found AL Jeezera (I miss the AJ America channel) to be a good source to keep a level view, compared to most US sources.
|
|
#
¿
Oct 11, 2023 14:42
|
|
|
Fivemarks posted:Imperialist and settler colonialist forces love inventing or massively blowing out of proportion atrocities by the people they're imperializing, both to get public support on their side for solving the "native problem" and to justify their own crimes as retribution. Which isn't to say plenty of times, those attacks don't happen- but often they're just another chain in a link of violence started by settler colonialism. Reading the actual events of Battle of Greasy Grass/Little Bighorn gave me the same feelings as reading about the Alamo- "Why the gently caress should we celebrate this? We lost because we were stupid."
|
|
#
¿
Oct 11, 2023 14:50
|
|
|
Crab Dad posted:How the hell did they collect up enough paragliders to use them for an ongoing assault? Disregarding state sponsors, Wish, Ali Baba, Temu, or General commercial market. You can find videos reviewing them on YT.
|
|
#
¿
Oct 11, 2023 17:16
|
|
|
IDF is denying it. https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.s...israel-12982329 Stuart Ramsay interviewed two IDF majors - one of whom was a spokesman. Ramsay said: "At no point did either he, or the other major I spoke to, ever mention that Hamas had beheaded or killed 40 babies or children. I believe that if it were the case, they would have told me and others there. "There is no doubt that a horrific attack took place at Kfar Aza, and it needed to be reported, and we did see the bodies of the dead from the community in their houses, in the back of a truck, and on the basketball court. "But it's important to separate the facts from speculation in a situation like this. "To reiterate - the IDF had every opportunity to inform the world's media of any story that had become apparent as the military continue to clear up the kibbutz. The murder and beheading of 40 children was never mentioned to me or my team."
|
|
#
¿
Oct 11, 2023 20:51
|
|
|
To those that find the dead, it doesn't matter, either. It still fucks them up.
|
|
#
¿
Oct 11, 2023 21:04
|
|
|
The beheading thing sounds much like the fictional war crimes propagandized in every war. I'm not saying it didn't happen, but that it fails the smell test. I have no doubt that militants killed civilians there- possibly in horrific ways that will caste new nightmares into the historical record- beheading babies takes a level of inhumanity few seem to have. The fact that the IDF is denying it, and the only source seems to be the same fake looking newscast, I don't think it happened that way. Mosst people have no idea what happens to a human body confronted with ballistic science. 5.56 can remove limbs on an adult; shrapnel will fillet you like a trout. This very well could have been like the crimes of Haditha, where the assaulting force just fragged every room, and then swept through. Bullets do horrible things to tiny bodies.
|
|
#
¿
Oct 12, 2023 13:52
|
|
|
psydude posted:I'm not really sure how debating exactly how the babies were murdered really changes the fact that babies were murdered, but the IDF isn't denying it anymore. It doesn't change their deaths, but allowing a false narrative on atrocities breeds more atrocities.
|
|
#
¿
Oct 12, 2023 14:07
|
|
|
A.o.D. posted:Is it a false narrative? Without confirmation, we should assume so. Considering the IDF isn't broadcasting it, I think it's safe to assume it's bamboo telegraph exaggerations. I hope I am correct, but assume I'm wrong. ThisIsJohnWayne posted:What truly sits wrong with me is people who are selective about which murdered children they get bloodthirsty over. Make no mistake, child murderers are terrorists who have all but forsaken their membership to the human species... This. So much of the public is condemning Hamas, but ignoring the fact both sides of just this conflict are in a Race to the bottom. Many of the same people lamenting those deaths are more than willing to ignore the IAF dropping apartment buildings, mosques, and schools with impunity. I'm not trying to Whatabout, but the American media ecosystem is largely controlled by the Israeli narrative. We can't condemn one when both teams are playing by the same playbook.
|
|
#
¿
Oct 12, 2023 14:24
|
|
|
The problem is, Fivemarks has a valid points. Isreal has spent decades doing the EXACT same poo poo as Hamas, and it gets a public pass because they have better PR. The view must be applied across both sides. Otherwise, this turns into a Fox News version of the Iraq War. THEY set the rules of engagement over the years. Hamas should conduct themselves better, but they won't as long as they feel justified by their enemy.
|
|
#
¿
Oct 12, 2023 14:48
|
|
|
Soylent Pudding posted:To the extent we have sources reporting on the most egregious of Hamas's crimes against humanity, it's western journalists from mainstream media sources are reporting statements from front line soldiers and first responders. It's also worth noting that the IDF didn't outright deny it but simply said they didn't have enough information to confirm. Forgive me for not dredging up the links but I know at least some of those statements are in the CBS articles already posted. Both sides have the same desired outcome, then, but the Israelis have the head start on the ethnic cleansing. It's hosed up. Neither side is the good guy. In a just world, an international peacekeeping force backed by US air elements would take control and stand down both sides. Instead, we have US SOF elements assisting in genocide because ??? E- I'm not supporting either side, but it's hard not to find some sympathy for the people of Gaza; I feel the same way about Hamas as I did about the insurgents in Iraq: what else would we expect? Reminded me of that verse from the Tyler Childers song "Long Violent History". bulletsponge13 fucked around with this message at 15:40 on Oct 12, 2023 |
|
#
¿
Oct 12, 2023 15:38
|
|
|
Bored As gently caress posted:Is it the exact same poo poo? Well, before this Hamas attack Israel has a history of rape and murder of civilians; bombing of protected targets; the purposeful murder of peaceful protesters; the refusal to warn people in Gaza of armed incursions and airstrikes; assassination of community, religious, and political leaders; shooting children 100 yards away for throwing rocks; kidnapping and torture of civilians; cutting off vital resources at will; caught on video using frags and lethal force on civilians in Gaza; Bombing critical infrastructure within Palestinian territories; violating their own laws and the laws of international accords they agreed to. That's just what they freely admit. Israel military actions have been different from Hamas only in that they wear a uniform.
|
|
#
¿
Oct 12, 2023 17:13
|
|
|
Arione posted:Well that's what happens when they use human shields... They bomb whether there is a military target or not, my dude.
|
|
#
¿
Oct 13, 2023 00:38
|
|
|
Soylent Pudding posted:Well yeah, once they show Hamas that human shields don't work Hamas will stop using them. So really the IAF is saving civilians by murdering civilians. (This is sarcasm, gently caress the IAF) We trained them so well.
|
|
#
¿
Oct 13, 2023 01:33
|
|
|
70k/Sq mile. There is no place in Gaza that isn't Mega City 1 packed. E- a quick search shows that is about as dense as Manhattan. Even with precision ordnance, you are killing unaffiliated civilians in other buildings, on the street, and passing by. bulletsponge13 fucked around with this message at 22:41 on Oct 13, 2023 |
|
#
¿
Oct 13, 2023 22:01
|
|
|
The purposeful targeting of civilians is a normal act in war. It is done by every single armed force on the planet, and the more formal the force, the more likely it will be covered up or glossed over. Civilians don't really matter to military planners, no matter how much they pretend. When it comes time, every single officer will channel LeMay and Cortez and slaughter half a city to take an objective that is nothing but ruins. That isn't saying it's ok, or that it's morally or ethically justified, but the focus on Hamas Re: civilian targets feels like a misdirect that benefits the narrative of BiBi. I'm not saying ignore it, I'm not saying it's cool and good, but the intentional focus on the symptoms, and not the disease, doesn't do anything worthwhile. And everyone focused on that aspect is ignoring that the IDF and Israeli Security Forces set the rules of engagement a long time ago. Everything Hamas has been accused of, Israel visited upon the Palestinians first. Except, like the US military, their PR and Information Warfare helped cover up them murdering children with suppressed 22s or providing armed escorts for 'settlers' to enter, murder, and steal homes and property. Or limiting vital resources to purposely induce disease and death. "There ain't no cowboys in this Connecticut Town"- there are no good guys. There are no moral combat actions.
|
|
#
¿
Oct 14, 2023 15:51
|
|
|
mlmp08 posted:I believe you are conflating "purposeful targeting of civilians" and "not caring about collateral / military necessity to the point of cruelty" There is no moral difference. If you clusterbomb a village, it's a purposeful military decision, regardless of how you frame it. Collateral damage is "A civilian was catching a ride in an APC that hits a mine"- something completely unforeseen and unpredictable. Bombing where people live, leveling cities, and bombing hospitals and critical infrastructure are all labeled collateral, but they aren't.
|
|
#
¿
Oct 14, 2023 16:06
|
|
|
mlmp08 posted:I'm just never going to agree with you. Purposefully targeting and killing civilians is morally different from making a good faith effort at the individual level not to kill civilians and failing due to scale of war. We aren't talking about individual soldiers, we are talking military leaders. Military planners target civilians targets as a strategy in war. Every single military to ever get fielded. We aren't talking accidentally killing a civilian because you missed a shot. We are speaking different scales. And those people already don't feel guilt.
|
|
#
¿
Oct 14, 2023 16:23
|
|
|
mlmp08 posted:Language like the below doesn't indict militaries effectively or reduce harm. It is the kind of argument that murderers use to justify their actions. "We all do this, it's normal, this is just how it is, oh well. If you didn't want to murder civilians, you shouldn't have joined or been drafted." Maybe I'm misunderstanding your meaning. You seem to think that they give a gently caress, when they are specifically trained not to. It is a normal part of military strategy, and taught in service schools with a wink wink caveat of "but try not to". But yet every single military strategist violates that directive and purposely targets both civilians and protected places. It was hyperbolic to say every officer, but you will find very few senior military leaders and planners who give more than a passing nod to the idea to limit civilian deaths. You can't level half a city and claim collateral damage. You can't bomb hospitals and call it a Whoopsie Doodle. The willful disregard of civilian casualties by military leaders isn't any different than purposely targeting them. And most militaries don't even bother keeping an accounting of civilians killed. We will probably end up disagreeing, which is fine- I still love and appreciate the input and conversation. I will also admit that I have a deep and lasting personal bias, because those assholes didn't have to see what they did. They didn't have to do the BDA. They got to sit at the CPA palace and write themselves up for a Legion of Merit and tell Stars and Stripes lies about how many enemies (Non-Americans) were killed. I think we might be talking a bit past each other- you seem to be focused on the Tactical, low level, individual unit, where I am looking towards the strategic, higher level. If I am misunderstanding, please don't think I am doing it to be argumentative.
|
|
#
¿
Oct 14, 2023 16:51
|
|
|
Potato Salad posted:This is trivially ahistorical. Strategic bombing as a policy is less than a century old, and you bet your rear end that much of the history of warfare involved actors dogmatically avoiding civilian casualties, to the extent that there are even terms for military action that specifically targets or spills violence onto civilian populations for various deliberate or accidental reasons. The rape, pillage, and murder of the civilian populace was part of a soldiers pay for much of History in every area of pre-modern conflict. These actions ARE normal historically. Even ignoring strategic bombing- barraging a civilian populace was a normal. Infecting them with disease was normal. Having Cav ride down survivors was typical. The idea of widespread protection of civilians is largely a modern construct.
|
|
#
¿
Oct 14, 2023 17:05
|
|
|
Potato Salad posted:I don't think we're going to be able to agree. The history of warfare overwhelmingly involves war made for the purposes of statecraft where preservation and even creating favor with a civilian population is the entire war goal, even between ethnicities with longstanding grudges *points toward AD 900 through the Renaissance in Western Europe* And war made for state craft STILL purposely targeted civilians to break the will of the people, and subjugate them. We also have ancient records of slaughtering civilians- people make rules, sometimes they try to follow them. Avoiding them is ancient, as is targeting them. Like I said, hyperbolic to say every officer- but to say civilians have been a target of every military action isn't. E- my point was that militaries only give a gently caress about civilians when it's convenient, and multiple people have said that is incorrect historically. It isn't. That was my point.
|
|
#
¿
Oct 14, 2023 17:16
|
|
|
Apologies for being the derailleur. Love you guys, I'm just just tired and have too much first hand experience with some of this poo poo.
|
|
#
¿
Oct 14, 2023 19:18
|
|
|
There is also a bunch of circumstantial evidence that Israeli intelligence and security forces allowed a substantial number of small arms to be funneled to Hamas. Besides the theft and sale from IDF sources, OSINT has identified large amounts of weapons as Israeli manufactured and either scrubbed of identifiers, or fake ones added.
|
|
#
¿
Oct 14, 2023 22:42
|
|
|
In some defense- the Carl G is colloquially called a Rocket Launcher, and it wasn't in-service with normal dudes when he was in, just limited deployment with SOF elements. RR to GWOT grunts are things like the SPG9- crew served, vehicle mounted AT weapons. The US Army phased out RR in the 70s. He is probably completely ignorant to Carl. Mcbeth is a good source, but like all, mistakes happen. I've noticed the more 'elite' the unit, and the higher the rank, the more likely to be a specialize idiot- see Mike Glover, former CAG, who says Dry Fire is bad and will get you killed in the streets, and says you should use FMJ in your CCW. Mcbeth was an AT Grunt- as was I- but he doesn't seem like a weapons guy. Irving on the 203 probably comes from inadequate training and pop culture influence, or he is just dumb, because that is some childish- like elementary school- beliefs.
|
|
#
¿
Oct 15, 2023 15:38
|
|
|
Historically, if IDF has admitted the hospital was targeted, but then says, "we don't know why it blew up", they are admitting it was them. It won't matter- America shelled a known and marked hospital for over a half hour in AFG with no real repercussions. I doubt America, Jr will face anything.
|
|
#
¿
Oct 17, 2023 20:54
|
|
|
mrmcd posted:I would like to see the evidence on this.guys. Source- trust us.
|
|
#
¿
Oct 17, 2023 21:12
|
|
|
Kazinsal posted:Even if covert supply by sea is the more realistic option, I'm just imagining the size and design of tunnel needed to fit a whole rear end SRBM through it. Not as big as you'd think, provided you plan on it. Guesstimating some here- figure a box about 3 foot square, 15 feet long if they come in a shipping cannister possibly smaller, if it is something that could feasibly be broken down. I assume they also enter clandestinely in shipments and supplies, hidden in things like fuel oil trucks or the like; just like smuggling anything, you only need one guy in your pocket or negligent on assignment.
|
|
#
¿
Oct 18, 2023 00:12
|
|
|
Don't Ask posted:I'll be honest, I haven't been thinking straight since 07/10 so I may be missing a barb in your post, but basically yeah. I'd be interested in hearing what you are willing to share
|
|
#
¿
Oct 19, 2023 14:58
|
|
|
Reverse Human Shield. I dig it.
|
|
#
¿
Oct 20, 2023 18:29
|
|
|
As someone with an inaccurate rap sheet, I feel you. Rap Sheet entries are largely bullshit anyway, because unless it's a simple thing like "Don't say the N word" or something completely subjective, it's the whims of the Mod doing the entry.
|
|
#
¿
Oct 22, 2023 02:28
|
|
|
The ol' Dubya play.
|
|
#
¿
Oct 23, 2023 05:01
|
|
|
Israel has been bombing protected sites for decades. The only way it would matter is if they did a super cut of the strike operation set to Drowning Pool on Prime Time TV. And even then, nothing would be done since they have US backing E- I'm tired of pretending the LOAC means anything to anyone who violates it as a strategic policy bulletsponge13 fucked around with this message at 15:08 on Oct 26, 2023 |
|
#
¿
Oct 26, 2023 15:06
|
|
|
knox_harrington posted:That is definitely not true now when global public opinion is more important than ever, and content is disseminated in real time. It absolutely is still true.
|
|
#
¿
Oct 26, 2023 20:45
|
|
|
knox_harrington posted:Which rules of war are you expecting Israel to be judged by? Well, I would figure the pretty much agreed upon ones the US pretends to follow. They have for years and faced what? Support from the US, a few complaints that are conveniently pushed under the rug, and expansion against their own laws, treaties, and Constitution. Israel is ignoring every tenet of LOAC on livestream, and no one is doing anything about it. They are admitting to it in press releases and by spokesperson. Not trying to be a doom saying rear end in a top hat, but who os going to push for punishment? The US certainly can't- They were complicit, supportive, currently violating them, and set the rules that ICC doesn't matter; we passed a law authorizing military action if any American is indicted. Russia? Who supported chemical weapons use in Syria, whose tactical prowess is dedicated to ignoring the laws of combat, and is currently violating them? Who do we expect to hold them accountable when they have the US watching their back?
|
|
#
¿
Oct 26, 2023 21:34
|
|
|
Herstory Begins Now posted:generally the only way people ever face legal consequences for war crimes is if they either lose a war and manage to get captured or if there are laws on their own books against the conduct and the efforts to cover up or conceal the crimes are insufficient. every great once in a while someone gets captured and tried by the other side, but that's exceedingly rare. you also see sanctions against military leadership somewhat regularly, but practically speaking there's either domestic enforcement or there's no enforcement Agreed. The IDF was heinous enough that a US weapons maker refused to fulfill an order. The IDF requested Integrally Suppressed 10/22 rifles for "Riot Control". In the solicitation, it was stated they intended to use frangible ammo and shoot 5-10 meters into the ground in front of the protestors, sending less lethal shrapnel and debris into the shins and legs. It did say that it could also be used to destroy lights and dispatch guard dogs for their SOF units. The first time fielded, it was used to headshot protestors, including a child.
|
|
#
¿
Oct 26, 2023 21:47
|
|
|
It still trips me out how people misunderstand the responsibility of violence.
|
|
#
¿
Oct 26, 2023 23:42
|
|
|
Comrade Blyatlov posted:.....go on? I have an odd view of violence given my experiences and former profession. I'm stealing directly from a sour source, Heinlein, because it is a cleaner version of harder lessons I was taught as a kid. Condensed slightly for ease of reading "Violence is the Supreme authority..." everyone knows that bit. What people miss is a later passage- "What is the converse of authority?" "Responsibility." "Authority and Responsibility MUST be equal...To permit irresponsible authority is to sow disaster; to hold hold man responsible for anything he does not control is to behave with blind stupidity." Violence is authority. When you weird it over someone, they are inherently weaker- or else violence doesn't work. That means you have the responsibility to wield that as evenly as possible, and to hold yourself to accountability. Mistakes of violence are not something you can remedy- if I punch you, I permanently alter you in some slight fashion. The more carnage in the violence, the more hesitation you should feel before you execute. You cannot take back a bullet, you can't make whole someone rendered. I just think that if you are going to be the hammer, you better be drat sure it's a loving nail. If you miss the nail, you should pay for the thumb. You have to make the hard decisions- it's always easier to kill, but easy rarely means right. I read too much philosophy as a kid.
|
|
#
¿
Oct 27, 2023 01:56
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ May 16, 2024 16:48 |
|
|
Borscht posted:Right on. Isn’t food water and medicine interference prohibited by the Geneva convention? Probably a double post since I was typing while this came up. Someone correct me of I'm wrong, but I believe for International law to apply, you must meet the 4 requirements for a recognized force- a C2 element (someone responsible for what takes place), a uniform or identifiable markings designating them as a fighting force, openly carry arms, and conduct operations under LOAC/LOLW; otherwise they fall into the nebulous category we helped invent 'Unlawful Combatant' and they lose all rights beyond what the opponent forces decides to grant them. That would mean they would fall under the Israeli justice system, as I understand it. But I'm not a law guy.
|
|
#
¿
Oct 27, 2023 02:04
|
|