|
Huh. Looks like a bunch of early reports of Hamas atrocities were either fake, or blown out of proportion to justify a hardline "We have to kill all the vermin" stance. So, uh....
|
#
¿
Oct 11, 2023 14:25
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ May 16, 2024 15:51 |
|
|
psydude posted:Got a source for this? Because reporting coming out of well, everywhere, is that you're wrong. have you got a legitimate confirmed source that the palestineans are beheading babies? Because that's fake https://english.almayadeen.net/news/politics/factcheck:-israel-has-no-information-on-hamas-murdering-babi The claims that a pregnant woman was dissecting alive by Hamas soldiers with Bayonets? Well that happened. IN the 80's. Just it was done to Lbeanese refugees by Christian militiamen with support from the Israelis https://www.arabnews.com/node/2162166/amp
|
|
#
¿
Oct 11, 2023 14:41
|
|
|
Imperialist and settler colonialist forces love inventing or massively blowing out of proportion atrocities by the people they're imperializing, both to get public support on their side for solving the "native problem" and to justify their own crimes as retribution. Which isn't to say plenty of times, those attacks don't happen- but often they're just another chain in a link of violence started by settler colonialism. It's a bit like saying that Custer's Last Stand was an evil massacre of a brave american force by evil natives, and not asking "Hey why were those Americans there?" Fivemarks fucked around with this message at 14:48 on Oct 11, 2023 |
|
#
¿
Oct 11, 2023 14:45
|
|
|
bulletsponge13 posted:Reading the actual events of Battle of Greasy Grass/Little Bighorn gave me the same feelings as reading about the Alamo- "Why the gently caress should we celebrate this? We lost because we were stupid." The Texans rebelled because they wanted to be able to keep Slaves (in Mexico). Texas is the only state that's rebelled twice just to keep slavery around. So we gotta celebrate The Alamo because otherwise people might think that Texas was founded for lovely reasons (Genocide of natives and the enslavement of blacks)
|
|
#
¿
Oct 11, 2023 14:52
|
|
|
I mean, yeah, Israelis are basically a Settler Colonialist state. Same for White Americans and Canadians and Mexicans and most of the Americas. Same for Australia and New Zealand. Edit: This is not me saying that genocide or "Push them into the sea is good", mind you.
|
|
#
¿
Oct 11, 2023 15:10
|
|
|
Don't Ask posted:Sure, let's say that somehow makes any sense, but considering that the common usage of settlers (in the context of Israel) is mainly when referring to the crazies in the West Bank, using that term for people living within the intl. recognized borders of the country is usually a good sign that the writer has a deep bias against Israelis as a whole. I am already going to regret making this post but gently caress it. Let's say its the 1870's. Where does the line between "Settler Colonialism'd Land" and "Our Land" lay in America? psydude posted:Hey thanks for putting words in my mouth and also making my point at the same time. This guy was literally arguing that all Israelis are colonizers and thus we shouldn't feel bad when they're murdered. I'm as vehemently opposed to Israel's apartheid of Palestine and Netanyahu's cynical exploitation of the rivalry between Hamas and Fatah as anyone, but come the gently caress on. Edit: I may have said that Israel is a Settler Colonial state, but that doesn't mean the solution to the problem is "Kill'em all and drive them into the sea". I sure as hell didn't say that. I just said it's a Settler Colony, same as America or canada or Mexico or Australia or New Zealand. I certainly don't think any of those states should have their non native populations killed and murdered. Fivemarks fucked around with this message at 15:25 on Oct 11, 2023 |
|
#
¿
Oct 11, 2023 15:23
|
|
|
Someone post Experience Bij because that's what participating in this thread feels like.
|
|
#
¿
Oct 11, 2023 15:35
|
|
|
Soylent Pudding posted:Before the birth of modern Zionism, Palestine was already one of if not the most heavily Jewish populated regions in the world as a percentage of the population, with some sources suggesting as high as 10%. Even if Zionism never happened there would have been enough Jewish communities in Palestine to demand their own separate state following British decolonization. I PROBABLY Shouldn't bring up stuff like the Village of Najd, and how it was depopulated by the Negev Brigade, and how Sderot was built on its ruins?
|
|
#
¿
Oct 11, 2023 16:17
|
|
|
I'm just saying- Israel looks like it was founded by Ethnoreligious based ethnic cleansing, and has been engaging in pretty blatant settler colonialism over its entire history, and is engaging in behavior that would've made Apartheid South Afrika and Rhodesia Proud in how it treats its minorities (not just palestinean, but african and "not the right kind of jewish" as well), and has been gradually taken over by hardliners of the worst stripe. I couldn't condemn the Palestineans or Hamas for acting against that, as much as I could condemn MK or the ANC or T'oussaint l'ouveture or Nat Turner or ZANU/ZIPRA. Edit: I also do not condone any atrocities, but I think we need to have confirmed atrocities and not just sensationalized reports used to justify Israel turning Gaza into the world's largest children and old folk's graveyard. And, by all means, we should condemn evil acts done by Hamas- but we should also condemn the evil acts done by Israel. Fivemarks fucked around with this message at 16:32 on Oct 11, 2023 |
|
#
¿
Oct 11, 2023 16:29
|
|
|
We're really on the "Beheadings of babies" thing again, after that was proven false?
|
|
#
¿
Oct 11, 2023 20:28
|
|
|
I Think that we should absolutely calm down and wait till we have confirmation of any war crimes and atrocities before we jump to the most extreme possible positions on stuff. Especially because there's a lot of disinformation out there, especially disinformation with the purpose of justifying turning the Gaza Strip into a mass grave. If that makes me anti-semitic or acting in bad faith? Oh well. You kinda get used to that when you get called that for supporting anything but the most hardline zionist policies. Fivemarks fucked around with this message at 14:24 on Oct 12, 2023 |
|
#
¿
Oct 12, 2023 14:20
|
|
|
Given the history of this entire situation, I don't think its fair to frame the Palestinians and Hamas as uniquely evil and the Israelis as uniquely victimized. If Hamas is evil for kidnapping the elderly, women, and children and for attacking and murdering them with weapons of war, then the Israeli state is guilty of all those very same acts. Or does it not count as kidnapping when the IDF put kids in cages, or does it not count as murder when the IDF shoots a journalist and then attacks her funeral to kill more. Does it not count as terror when Israeli police attack mosques during peaceful services? Is the murder of civilians only a problem with it is done to Israeli civilians, but the wholesale terror bombing of Gaza acceptable because they're Palestinian? No, I think not. If its a crime when one side does it, its a crime when the other side does it, and that is why I believe we should take things with a grain of salt and a glass full of caution and reason When we're fed reports of atrocities to justify, effectively, a continuing genocide of Palestine.
|
|
#
¿
Oct 12, 2023 14:33
|
|
|
Discussion Quorum posted:I do understand doubt around the more lurid stories. I remember after Katrina there were all sorts of stories about beastly survivors minorities committing all sorts of heinous acts at the Superdome. The Superintendint (NO police chief) held a press conference where he tearfully declared "they raped a baby, man!" (No babies were raped and people were frustrated but otherwise chill, meanwhile the NOPD and white homeowners used the stories to justify shooting black people left and right) I mean that happens in every natural disaster in the United States. Behind the Bastards has an Episode on it, Elite Panic, focusing on the Ycua Balanos Store Fire.
|
|
#
¿
Nov 17, 2023 02:33
|
|
|
I think part of the reason everyone is pushing back so hard against any Israeli narrative and assuming that "if the Israelis accuse HAMAS of doing it, actually the Israelis did it and its worse than you thought" is because, well? A lot of the Israeli claims when this whole thing started were either false, massively blown out of proportion, or actually stuff from the Nakba or previous violence done by Israeli Soldiers or Settlers to Palestinians and Lebanese being brought up and claimed that Hamas did it. In that sort of situation, especially with Israeli propaganda and their weaponizing of the word antisemitism, I think it's understandable to see why people would assume "The Hamas fighters on paragliders killed hundreds of civilians at this music festival" getting corrected to "Israeli Gunship crews caused some friendly fire there" and believe that its as bad as "The Israelis killed most of the civilians there because they're a poorly trained cforce meant for colonial oppression."
|
|
#
¿
Nov 27, 2023 17:53
|
|
|
Gotta say, I don't like the idea that we gotta step around on eggshells when talking about the Israeli's state's crimes and actions because the Israeli State has spent the past 80 years conflating the Israeli State with Jewishness and no-one wants to be an anti-semite. It feels a lot to me like how Apartheid South Africa and Rhodesia tried to conflate themselves with whiteness and if you were anti-Apartheid or Anti-Rhodeisa, you were in favor of white genocide. Maybe we should save the accusations and worries of Anti-Semitism for when someone starts going full anti-semitic, instead of the reasonable assumption about Israel firing into a confused crowd at a music festival with Apaches leading to lots of deaths of civilians. Edit: Also its not trying to play down the attacks. It's people looking at all the poo poo Israel has lied about so far to justify genocide, and going "Hey we also think this thing in a pile of rotting fish smells fishy."
|
|
#
¿
Nov 30, 2023 15:21
|
|
|
knox_harrington posted:You've repeatedly almost said you don't think Israel should exist as a country, which I think is the fundamental disagreement here. I don't think it should exist in the country for the same reasons that Rhodesia or Apartheid South Africa shouldn't have been allowed to exist as a country. The problem isn't the the Jewish people, the problem is the Ethnoreligious Apartheid that doesn't just poo poo on Palestinians, but anyone who isn't Jewish, and the right kind of Jewish at that. That's the problem here. Edit: An Israel that is not an ethnoreligious apartheid state that engages in genocide and settler colonialism is absolutely fine. It just needs to either accept that non-Jewish populations have a right to be full citizens with full human rights, and to not try to do the Apartheid things or the Settler Colonialism things. Fivemarks fucked around with this message at 06:02 on Dec 1, 2023 |
|
#
¿
Dec 1, 2023 05:59
|
|
|
mrmcd posted:I don't have any particular prescription for how to make countries like Saudi Arabia and Israel "not like that" because there's a huge number of ways that could happen, the end result might not actually be better, and assuming I have the answers on how to fix everything is the kind of dumb American arrogance the world really really needs less of right now. I believe there are some people we can ask about this. The Irish, perhaps? Maybe the Portuguese? Perhaps even the people of Zimbabwe and South Africa? Edit: Maybe the Vietnamese while we're at it.
|
|
#
¿
Dec 1, 2023 14:42
|
|
|
We really quibbling about how bad Israel's racism is now? Gonna Kissinger on about "no, no, what Israel is doing to the non white jews isn't bad because it could be worse," huh? "Oh they're not sterilizing the black jews, they're just trying to forcibly control their breeding, unknowingly decreasing their fertility, and making it official policy that they can't donate blood because they're unclean." What the gently caress. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
¿
Dec 2, 2023 20:59
|
|
|
A.o.D. posted:Or maybe there's no need to inflate how bad a crime is when simply acknowledging what actually happened is bad enough? Unknowingly forcing women to take a Contraceptive when they aren't aware of the side effects counts as some hosed up bad poo poo. I'm opposed to the attempt to say that it's not as bad by quibbling on precise definitions. This is hosed up, and is absolutely a sign of "Israel is an Ethnostate, where even Jews who aren't the right kind of jews aren't welcome." I mean, though, this isn't any different, and isn't as bad, as the poo poo that the US has done to its black population. I don't think Israel's tested syphillis on its Ethiopian population.
|
|
#
¿
Dec 2, 2023 21:07
|
|
|
A.o.D. posted:Israel is an ethnostate, and they are attempting a genocide of the Palestinians at the moment. I'm very comfortable with that statement. The treatment of the African jewish population was an abomination, but a knowing effort to sterilize a population is also a form of genocide. I'm not quite at the point where I'm willing to endorse a statement that the Israeli state attempted genocide on another Jewish population. Oh its not Genocide, they just didn't want to have any more of "them" in their Israel. It's like how its not genocide to not want any of "Them" to move into your nice gated community and drive down property values. Edit: wait, that was sarcasm, and not entirely directed at you. I wouldn't call "Israel's right wing doesn't want black people in their country, and might take steps to make sure that the right of return doesn't apply to Jews from the wrong places, and might force people from those countries to take contraceptives unknowingly" genocide, but it's also not not some terrible hosed up poo poo, we can agree on. Stultus Maximus posted:What's this have to do with anything? I mean, the US is Israel's biggest benefactor, I wouldn't be surprised if they learned and repeated the poo poo the US did. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Fivemarks fucked around with this message at 21:24 on Dec 2, 2023 |
|
#
¿
Dec 2, 2023 21:20
|
|
|
Potato Salad posted:It's literally ethnic cleansing, statutorily, open and shut. I mean, yes. It's Ethnic Cleansing- Israel's government, or at least large right wing elements of it and ultraorthodox Jews, did not want to let non-white and african jewish populations return to Israel and tried to argue that the Right of Return didn't apply to them. When they were forced to back down and allow limited migration of these people to Israel, they engaged in some spiteful ethnic cleansing, as well as some good ol' racism, because its not just that Israel is a Jewish Ethnostate- it's an Ethnostate for European and MIddle Eastern Jewish populations only.
|
|
#
¿
Dec 2, 2023 21:42
|
|
|
knox_harrington posted:Anyway this is really tangential to the current conflict. At least we established that y'all agree that Israel is a country that a) does exist and b) has a right to exist. It follows from there that they have an obligation to protect their population and makes a basis for looking at the operations in Gaza. No we don't. We sure as loving hell don't agree that Israel has an "inherent" right to exist. If Israel has a right to exist, than so does a hypothetical New Afrika carved out of the United States. No country has a right to exist.
|
|
#
¿
Dec 3, 2023 00:27
|
|
|
A.o.D. posted:There are a few people who are justifiably upset and frustrated about a dire situation they feel powerless to change. I think that feeling might be causing them to lash out. Are we talking about posters in this thread, or why people in Gaza might join and support Hamas?
|
|
#
¿
Dec 4, 2023 05:36
|
|
|
PurpleXVI posted:I think part of the issue with that approach as a general rule of thumb, is that sometimes you get someone who makes an incredibly ghoulish statement in a very "calm, rational and polite" voice, which might prompt someone people to get upset and go "what the gently caress? you're scum, get out, die, burn." which I consider perfectly understandable in some cases, and eat a probe/ban/etc., but the person who made the ghoulish statement gets a pass based on "well, they were just arguing politely." Yes, but, Decorum and Tone is more important than Content, this is the internet. /s I think that the reason why some people in this thread are getting mad at the mods is that, well, yeah? To most of us, it kinda looks like they're caring more about tone and decorum than anything else, and on a touchy subject like this, it's actually really loving infuriating to some people that it looks like that. When someone says "Actually by posting here you recognize ISrael's right to exist" and multiple people go "No we don't" in various ways of saying "No we don't" and everyone gets hit with probes for that, it feels a bit decorum-poisoned. Also to get back on topic more, I feel like it's a bit disingenuous to put all of the blame on starting this on Hamas- Israel was just looking for an excuse for genocide, and they would've gotten one eventually. It's also in the nature of the oppressed with no peaceful way out to turn towards violence when they've got no hope. Fivemarks fucked around with this message at 19:17 on Dec 4, 2023 |
|
#
¿
Dec 4, 2023 18:37
|
|
|
Grip it and rip it posted:Who is putting all the blame on anybody? All I said is that Hamas had a very deliberate hand in creating the crisis of today, which is a far cry from saying they're solely responsible. Like many organizations engaged in asymmetrical warfare, their intent appears to have been to draw out a reaction that they anticipate will improve conditions over the prior status quo. And by that metric, is seems that they are on the verge of being successful. Not saying you did, and I wasn't trying to imply that, and I'm sorry if that's how I came off. And yeah, if you're fighting an asymmetric conflict, ESPECIALLY against a genocidal or apartheid state, then causing the oppressor's reaction to be so out of proportion and cruel that the international community and the populace of the oppressor starts to have more sympathy for you is a pretty reasonable idea. It's like the Tet offensive. It didn't achieve its military goals in the slightest, but it caused public opinion to side with the Vietcong and NVA- and pictures of VC Assassins being executed certainly didn't help the perception of the war in the west.
|
|
#
¿
Dec 4, 2023 18:50
|
|
|
Comrade Blyatlov posted:The flipside of it though is that it's very easy for charged issues to become nothing but screaming into the void and purity fights. I think so far they've been doing a good job in a frankly thankless role - it's an incredibly hard needle to thread. I think that I'd appreciate a bit more nuance, but I understand that its asking a lot from the Mods. In other news https://x.com/HediViterbo/status/1731605573840392610?s=20 "This militarized state with a siege mentality sure seems a lot like Ancient Sparta, the Antebellum South, and Rhodesia" says guy who has read up on a lot of hyper-militarized states with a siege mentality.
|
|
#
¿
Dec 4, 2023 19:46
|
|
|
Kchama posted:There is value in a "go away forever" to the genocide-lover and a cooldown s... Twelver for the other person. (For some reason sixxers make people a thousand times madder.) And I think, at least I'm speaking for me here, we don't want "No mod response." I want proportionality. Sure, if someone's responding to someone saying "Genocide is okay" or "Yes but you see this fully excuses settler colonialism" with "gently caress you and die" with no additional context, that's absolutely a probe. But when the same punishments are being held out to those trying to justify horrible stuff as the people justifiably angry about it, that doesn't feel proportional, it feels like the point here isn't right and wrong, its decorum and tone policing.
|
|
#
¿
Dec 4, 2023 20:47
|
|
|
Alchenar posted:Well, this is a bit of an interesting twist: Somehow, I get the feeling it wasn't Hamas. Just a hunch.
|
|
#
¿
Dec 4, 2023 22:01
|
|
|
It seems a bit, i dunno, hyper cynical? Like the author is jerking off about how crassly cynical they can be to people honestly asking for advice in good faith.
|
|
#
¿
Jan 14, 2024 08:16
|
|
|
Lemniscate Blue posted:Honest question: Have you ever worked in an intel shop? I'm also not going to defend Intel guys. I come from a military family (Navy, not Air Force) but if Intel Officers in the Air force are anything like Officers in the navy, they're probably some of the shittiest human beings in existence. All I'm saying is, there's a point where you stop making your point and you sound like a Foamy the Squirrel rant. Edit: Changed the reference to something less topical. Fivemarks fucked around with this message at 08:24 on Jan 14, 2024 |
|
#
¿
Jan 14, 2024 08:22
|
|
|
Bored As gently caress posted:Yeah but it's funny as hell so who cares It's not the mid 2000's anymore.
|
|
#
¿
Jan 14, 2024 16:19
|
|
|
Speaking of, Vent, is this the place to lol and lmao at the incredibly racist poo poo getting posted by Zionists on Twitter at South Africa?
|
|
#
¿
Jan 14, 2024 16:48
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ May 16, 2024 15:51 |
|
|
This isn't the 1800's. A Nation's merchant marine doesn't actually fly their national flag, they fly the flag of some super lax and unregulated country like Liberia.
|
|
#
¿
Jan 30, 2024 03:14
|
|