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Zoeb posted:I did graffiti. Let's focus in on this. Mentally send yourself back to the "you" who did such things. Now as your past self we can ask some questions. 1) Why did you do it? 2) Would those affected by the graffiti (extending at least, to the person who has to clean it up) think you suffered more than a "slap on the wrist" for doing so? 3) What would the punishment (if caught) have to be increased to in order for teenage you to not do graffiti? 4) If you were in a group of friends doing graffiti, would you stop your friends if it suddenly became a violent gathering? 5) Were you a psychopath as a minor? 6) If the state is powerless to prevent graffiti, how can it prevent joyriding?
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Nov 25, 2023 12:07
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Zoeb posted:Yeah that is what I am thinking too. I want our approach to crime to be proactive but car theft is unthinkable. Like you said, it ruins people's lives. I saw a story where some teenage girls tried to steal an uber driver's car, murdered him, and the camera footage showed one of the girls, before fleeing the scene where they murdered this grandpa say "oh no, my phone!" Their initial defense was that it was the uber driver's fault that they murdered him because he didn't just let them go with his car, the only thing he had to make a living with. It's heartless, soulless, behavior and that man's family deserves more justice than being locked up until they are 21. Murder and carjacking are not kid stuff. Graffiti is kid stuff. Shoplifting is kid stuff. Fistfights are kid stuff. (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/teens-get-maximum-sentence-death-uber-eats-driver-n1273276) Thank you for answering, we can use those answers to speculate on the mindset of the juveniles I'm question. 1) With the Kia thefts, attention and amusement probably fits. (There is also the somewhat novel addition of Internet Clout, but that would be covered under Son of Sam laws typically) I have not read any peer reviewed studies on the matter, it seems unlikely that these cars are usually being stolen with the intent of depriving their owners of their future use. 2) With the Kia thefts, assuming the teenagers did not intend to deprive the owner of the vehicle, we are left with the cost of repairing windows/steering columns. (We can address totaling cars eventually) Quick napkin math gave a cost of $4000 for the Kia repair. Obviously this is much greater than the cost of bathroom vandalism. (I have seen estimates of $200, but i think that is of the smashing toilets variety.) Yes, this is a large difference in financial burden. 3) With Car Theft/ / Joyriding, you have an escape vehicle, so getting caught is also fairly small. (Again, Napkin math puts it at 7% [70,000 arrests for 1,000,000 reported thefts]) 5) "Normal" is quite subjective. I, for instance have never engaged in bathroom graffiti. 6) First off, depending on jurisdiction, the intent to deprive the owner of the vehicle is the difference between joyriding and "Grand Theft" Auto. "Proving beyond a reasonable doubt" that a minor intended to keep or sell the vehicle is going to be hard. As for the solutions: Installing better locks is only realistically going to be done as part of a recall. (Good luck.) Censoring the videos won't work, firstly because the information is already out there, secondly, unless you are Clarence Thomas, teens have free speech rights and breaking into a car is not a crime. (Breaking into a car without permission is). And thank God for that, or me helping my friend get into his car when he locked his keys in would been a crime. The final additional solution is trying minors as adults, which like every other part of the legal system is informed by race and class. As an addendum, I see this as an unfortunate non-theoretical example of the ethical problem of forgiveness: if a crime can be "absolved" (for lack of a better word) though certain actions, those crimes then have a specific price to perform. A less harrowing example being parking fines, if the advantage you gain from breaking a parking law is less than the fine, it is irrational not to break the law.
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Nov 26, 2023 06:58
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Zoeb posted:That is a good idea, though with teen murderers and robbers, I'm not sure what you would do. Define murderer in this case. A juvenile running someone over while joyriding a stolen Kia is probably closest to involuntary manslaughter while intoxicated, morally. They both have impared judgment (ether from being a dumb hormonal teenager, or being drunk). And, in California, for instance the former can be as little as a misdemeanor. I bring this up, not to approve of DUI, but rather as part of a broader point: If we seek justice and not vengeance from our legal system, it must generally be consistent rather than arbitrary and / or capricious. To loop this back to the data there were 249 arrests for kia/Hyundai thefts from June 2022 to July 2023. Compared to 2,131 arrests for DUI. Is there an uptick in car theft? Yes, to what it was in 2004. If you want to actually push back against the bloodlust, you need a better story than "kids are all teaching each other to steal cars on the commie site" Data will not work, (because they know a person who knows a person who knows a person affected, you will be arguing against their lived experiences) rather, you need a villain. In this case, your vilain is Kia and Hundai who refused to add a $30 part.
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Nov 26, 2023 12:51
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