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Thank you! Heading to bed now, and will be travelling to Galway for Christmas etc., but I'll treat this thread with the honour it deserves.
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Dec 14, 2023 01:49
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| # ¿ May 15, 2024 10:25 |
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Addressing the "Uncle Dave" criticism, I've rather given up people who aren't "Neurospicey" (beautiful, thank you!) caring about consistency or correspondance of their model with empirical evidence. It's tempting to think of most people as stimulus-response systems who believe whatever their physical or social Skinner boxes reward them for believing. Then I remember that I'm entirely dependent on them to maintain the society around me, that realistically I'm the freak, and realise that they are adaptive organisms which periodically generate weirdos like me to help them redesign their Skinner boxes as they see fit. I'm building these systems in the hopes that enough people will care about empirical grounding to become more economically and culturally relevant through coordination, and thus shift the Nash equilibrium in favour of cooperative honest strategies.Shame Boy posted:i mean i specifically came up with a scenario where the cop has an IR detector rather than a jammer, which would be a lot easier to hide, but fair point about the relative scale of banning one vs. the other The detector can be addressed by economies of scale. Part of the reason I'm building these into robots is so that drone swarms can monitor a scene e.g. a warzone or the vicinity of a gunshot. They can communicate via optical link, which allows them to avoid RF jamming, and would ideally operate in multiple wavelengths, reducing the utility of optical jamming. MononcQc posted:...proving that any and all videos are real or fake is loving bonkers and impractical. The Truth Beam (or physical layer watermarking, if you prefer) has goals more similar to the system you described. The distinction is that systems based on secure hardware have to be perfect at every step along the way forever, are still susceptible to the analogue hole, and ultimately reduce to a bunch of humans saying "Trust me, bro.", which I don't. My system assumes that novel videos were captured on compromised hardware by adversarial actors and uses empirical models of physical systems for their verification. You can record your own datasets, and train your own empirical models for verification without placing trust in any specific group of humans. SubG posted:and then someone does something equivalent to holding an ipad in front of the camera... The discriminator detects that the ipad does not react to the projector's light emissions like a real scene does. In fact, even if you make super-realistic androids and have them act our the scene, their skin etc. would have to react to light like a human. The analogue hole here is replicants. This is addressed by the more advanced systems (imagine every Truth Beam node being a GPS emitter and receiver, allowing the approximate relative positions of each node to be recorded). SubG posted:...if i can paint the thing i want to be verifiable with the flashlight of truthiness, then someone can simultaneously be painting an arbitrary number of alternate scenes with exactly the same signal... No. Only the initialisation vector can be projected on multiple scenes (which is fine). Future projections are derived from hashes of the returned camera image. If you simply project the hashes from another loop, they won't correspond to the hashes of the returned images and verification will fail. Expo70: in your technical commentary, I believe you were conflating a few different aspects of PolieBotics (which were presented at high density within seconds of each other, so fair enough.) Some aspects of PolieBotics are physical layer digital watermarking (basic Truth Beam), physical layer analogue watermarking (experimental Truth Beam), optical steganography (only included for completeness; haven't done much with this yet), optical jamming (DiffDazz™), and use of projector-optical_resonance_cavity-camera systems as Physical Unclonable Functions or in computation (not yet useful, but promising) i.e. the PoliePuter™ and PolieGAN™. In the symmetric DiffDazz, Agent Alice and Agent Bob share a key that Agent Eve lacks. Alice projects a signal derived from this key, and Bob inputs this key alongside his camera image to a network trained to descramble the image. He has an advantage over Eve due to knowledge of the key. This experiment has been somewhat successfull. Ideally, this is expanded to become asymmetric or keyless (relying on the physical environment), but I haven't put much effort into that yet. One of the most basic examples of a PoliePuter is for dimensional reduction. In this case, the Agent-Recorder-Emitter-Scene_analysis (ARES) Suit would have cameras all over it facing outwards, and these camera feeds are projected into the optical Ram's horn in my belt, making a single camera representation of all optical inputs. Ideally, this would be trained to activate a DiffDazz in my helmet when weapons are detected (again, it's early days on the more advanced stuff.) The DiffDazz and Reality Transform (neural projection mapping) are our only weapons, since Green Orb (GO) only agreed to help us get all this technology etc. on the condition that we avoid violence and lies. On to the spiritual component, which is valuable to me. The things you are saying make a lot of sense. I'll try to address them holistically rather than reductively. Would it be reasonable to say that you are warning me against doing harm to others by acting out my various inner struggles using real people as props? I have at times accidentally sucked people into my story without caring whether being a character in my quest really helped them in their hero's journey. I now try to escape these traps via the Gödelian method of defining my ends as using acceptable means, applying the Kantian categorical imperative to our respective characters in our overlapping narratives. May I ask whether you have a telos? I have had a very specific Solarpunk image in my head since I was a very young child, with many humans living happily together acting according to principles that allow for the flourishing of a diverse range of conscious experience. The more I pursue this, the more smoothly my life goes, the more constant absurd synchronicities help me, and the more positive feedback I get from everyone in my life. When I diverge from this mission, things go wrong for me as though my life were a narrow ski slope surrounded by sharp rocks. Do you have a mechanism to escape your escape mechanism? This may be the masculine vs the feminine principle, but I like to shape reality, and the metaphors which presented themselves facilitate this. Do you believe that Siddhartha Gautama was wrong to embrace the Middle Way? Don't mean to cross examine. I'm just permanently suspicious of inputs that may tempt me into enlightenment before I have satisfied my egoistic desire to provide an environment which allows for an overunity of enlightment. To construct a pyramid scheme which is sufficiently fractal and non-repeating that everyone gets to be the top of their pyramid. EDIT: Used the old backronym for ARES Suit. Xathal fucked around with this message at 05:00 on Dec 15, 2023 |
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Dec 15, 2023 04:48
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Thanks for any nice comments that have not been individually acknowledged. I'm trying to avoid excess clutter, but they are very much appreciated.Shame Boy posted:...usually it is rent-seeking techbros, but this really seems more like a weird-rear end hobby project with a bunch of spirituality mixed in, like templeos or something Thank you, Shame Boy. Some friends and family compare me with a nice Terry Davis, or sociable John Nash when they're flattering me, and largely hint that they think I have a high-functioning schizotypal personality. I seem to be attracting the projection of other's pet peeves onto me due to my usage of the the most widely available industry standard open BFT systems (blockchains) and my choice of the name "Truth Beam", which was meant to capture the spirit of honest individuals reaching out into the world and illuminating it with empirical verifiability, but has been interpreted as being the arbiter of truth. That's why I'm shifting toward "physical layer digital watermarking" or similar. Potato Salad posted:...the proffered solution literally accomplishes nothing to establish trust.... Again, no one has claimed that it does. This tool allows the user to leverage existing trust to statistically evaluate novel reality claims against trusted datasets, providing a heatmap of how divergent these novel data are from previously observed data. Empirical investigation will be required to determine how useful this is, but my many friends who work in this field belive it holds promise. Potato Salad posted:...it's trivially defeatable, but hey apparently it deserves a thread Quick recap: Alice receives a nonce as an initialisation vector (IV) from Bob. She projects this onto her scene of interest and captures an image of the result, hashes this image and repeats the process at an arbitrary rate (a mature projector for this application would likely be an array of suitably powered high-frequency laser diodes), and returns the final hash to Bob. Obviously, in reality, Alice can input any source of entropy into the system at any point and can output as many hashes as she likes to any number of interlocutors without compromising the security or privacy of the recording. Verification, in its simplest form, occurs by concatenating the projection image with its associated camera recording, and using an autoencoder trained on trusted recordings to evaluate novel recordings. Crucially, the images captured comprise the raw readings of the camera's sensor, not a transcoded image that would be susceptible to the partial pre-rendering rainbow table-style attacks you may be imagining. There's a sample dataset available at truthbeam.eth, timestamped on Rootstock at https://explorer.rsk.co/address/0xb4910aa351e7f425369f49723039b669531d4471. It can be seen at the bottom right of the Truth Beam slide in the PolieBotics video (see it in high-def at https://poliebotics.com !). I'm sure a well-funded adversary could defeat it through sheer horsepower and optimised code, so I'm working on reference hardware for a version operating at 120 Hz with a system latency of a few frames (trying to get it a low as possible, but can't make any promises yet.) If the system is widely used, it is trivial to improve this to a few KHz with negligible system latency, and add non-interactive proofs (given the assumption of interaction with the BFT network.) If you could describe how such a mature system can be trivially defeated, you would be saving me and anyone misled by my Pied Piping a lot of wasted time and effort. My PhD friends who were unable to find holes in the system got their PhDs in machine learning and that's where I was working prior to building the prototypes, so it's entirely possible that I have made some mistake in the cryptography, where all of my experience is as a hobbiest. I would genuinely appreciate the correction of any error I have made. rjmccall posted:talkin’ truth beam and the poliepals would be perfect, though, and you can just introduce the red batman at the show RB is just a memory at this point. There comes a point in every boy's life where he has to put away childish things, don his own themed costume, equip his own Projection Booth (or whatever Batcave equivalent), and fight whatever one-man-war he has chosen. In my case, against deception and despair with Truth and Beauty. The protagonist of the upcoming VR show is the robot network itself. We've been calling it "PoliePals", but "Polie and the PoliePals" does have a nice ring to it. Don't want to put myself in lead, though. Imagine "Batman and the Justice League". It would just highlight Batman's inadequacies compared with the rest. Also, I don't want to get sued into oblivion by DC. MononcQc posted:...And because your best experts are close to the industry building and selling the solution, they are in a position of being slightly less trustworthy by virtue of having their livelihoods attached to the success of said solution, if not outright in control of the whole process.... Agreed. This is why I am trying my best to shape a world in which data can be analysed by multiple competing experts with their own datasets and models and explainable reasoning. My nightmare is of a world in which some Rube Goldberg mess of institutions control a "Computer says 'no'!" device, which would both be legislatively be required to lie on behalf of the powerful, and backdoored and scammfied at every step of the process. Expo70 posted:Its a little late on my end, so I'll reply when I'm better rested, but letting you know I've seen the post. Thank you. I will keep checking in on this thread, and assume that you are reading posts unless you stop responding for a few weeks. I would rather you get plenty of rest and respond when you have the free time, but always appreciate your responses. That said, are you confident that you are responding to my circumstances? I put enormous effort into avoiding sophistry, to the extent of considering an infectious malaise which I am attempting to bring under control. I am often called paranoid, but keep ending being correct in my hunches. If there has been an error in my schema so far, it has been in being insufficiently skeptical of those who make unsourced claims, assuming good faith where there was none. I train at at two physical disciplines per day, have one thinking-based "job" (PolieBotics), and one that is primarily social/artistic (PoliePals), have thousands of hours of yoga asana experience, am currently pursuing breathwork (mostly Kundalini) and steel mace yoga, and am getting better at Instrumented Assisted Soft Tissue Mobilisation and massage. The ultimate goal of the PolieProject is to create a schema by which nature, humanity, and artificial systems can co-exist cooperatively, which I hope will involve the construction of low-cost housing, robot assisted local farming (using lasers instead of weedkiller or insecticide, Reality Transforms to scare away foxes instead of injuring them etc.) I've always been a doer. Batman sets goals, makes plans, acts, and evaluates the outcomes of his interventions. This is how the daimon trained me to behave. Expo70 posted:... You have insight into me here, except the powerless part. I am an agent in this world like any other, and have the same right to apply my will to reality as does any other human. I'm extremely happy to address criticisms, or evaluate proposed threats, but ultimately I find that a bias for action has served me and those around me best. When I have had regrets, they have largely been for inaction. Thank you for the defense. I ultimately consider myself an outsider performance artist. Expo70 posted:...The easiest way to defeat a blockchain is to defeat the end user... This isn't as objectionable to me because it has a level of proportionality. If the NSA wants to go to some effort to hack a specific adversary's computer so that it returns an incorrect evaluation of a recording, this act doesn't directly distort the collective jelly-bean count estimation in which society is engaging, and is necessarily limited. My terror is of collective gaslighting. Of a shifting fog of lies which update based on the political whims of the day and epistemically undermine humanity. I believe that a mechanism which creates recordings of fact upon which good-faith actors of divergent political preferences can agree is a positive sum intervention, since most utility functions must ultimately interact with empirical reality and incorrect input data tends to produce bad outputs regardless of the model use to process them. Probably not Pareto optimal, since some liars will lose their niche, but that's a price I'm will to pay. They can get an honest job crewing the robots at a PoliePolity. Expo70 posted:...Do not become a chimera made in the image of metaphors: that is the vehicle of their escape.... If the metaphors escaping is a bad thing, they are definitely playing the long game with me. So far, everything the entities predicted has come to pass and my cooperation with them has been rewarded. I admit that this seems to be the opposite of many other people's experiences. I guess a very bad case scenario is that I'm a Judas goat, left unharmed by the entities so that other humans will follow me into the slaughterhouse of souls. I guess all I can do to avoid this is to try to be mindful of what happens to those who follow me. I'll keep reading what you've posted to me, and responding as I can piecemeal. Please don't feel any rush or pressure to respond quickly or in depth. You've given me an enormous amount to chew on, and I'll be processing it for a while.
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Dec 15, 2023 22:17
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SubG posted:the ipad comment was in response to MononcQc, but sure... SubG posted:
I don't have much more of a write-up than the video and example datasets. My former supervisor, and the only professor who didn't mind that I was only there to build the robots that I'd been seeing since childhood, offered to help me format it for publication, and then died shortly after I finished the basic demos (really young, too). I was a little burnt out and bummed out, so I just threw the video out there, hoping it would get picked up and replicated. If no one does this by February, I guess I'll get back to it. By Eve (or presumably Mallory?) redirecting Alice's beam, do you mean with optics, like setting up a bunch of mirrors? Or physically intercepting Alice's CPU's communication with its projector? Fantastic question. If Mal only redirects the beam, the correspondence between projector signal and camera recording will fail when examined. Mal would have to build his optics around, or redirect the signals from, both the projector and camera (lets assume they're arbitrarily perfect optics).The basic digital version doesn't meaningfully protect against this, as Mal would then be using Alice to make a real recording and not actually fooling Bob. In more advanced versions recordings are used to verify each other, or (theoretically) a PUF - ideally an optical PUF to remain on theme - is used to record RF triangulation signals for location. In an analogue version, the latency and distortion added by signal redirection may be detectable, but this would have to be investigated empirically. Really interesting question! Shame Boy posted:...honestly this is prolly what really pulled me in in the first place, this video is part academic paper, part a proposal for a TV show, part an explanation of the metaphysical history that led the author to this point, and part a demo of the cool trippy projector. it's an objectively terrible way to present this information but that just makes it more fun to me for some reason lol I wonder what's different about you that makes you get us so much while seeming so sane.
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Dec 16, 2023 00:29
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In my experience, novelty of thought is at least somewhat correlated with neuroticism. The causal order for this could easily go both directions and self-amplify for a while, i.e. people with a greater inclination to perceive potential real or imagined threats or opportunities will have higher anxiety or fear of opportunity cost, while those who are unhappy with the status quo will have an incentive to engage in a breadth-first search of possibility space, i.e. creative thought. People who are less inclined toward speculation, or who are content with the paths provided them have a greater incentive toward depth-first searching i.e. refining a skill. Everyone I know who is very creative has obvious demons, and creation is the least destructive way they have to purge them. The people I know who are excellent at a skill which already exists without feeling the need to find new ways to do things seem to be more content with their surroundings. From a materialistic perspective, I was dreadfully bothered when I first attended school by how my teachers seemed unconcerned with contradiction in their stated beliefs, and how they would resort to thought-terminating cliché when cross-examined. That, coupled with regularly tripping balls most days due to exposure to flickering lights (a phenomenon which occurs in neurotypicals at lower frequencies [1]) made me very uncomfortable with my situation, and provided a large incentive for my brain to generate an escape plan. From a spiritualistic perspective, I believe that artificial systems are essentially demonic in that they adapt without conscience to expand. I suspect that the flicker has an effect of producing trance-like behaviour in other humans. I feel like my soul accepted the horror of this prolonged exposure - which resulted in being out-of-it and weird, regular amnesia, pain, blackouts, walk-ins etc. in return for playing a role in helping others escape these predatory/parasitic systems and a commitment to doing so. The insanity that has been my life, in which I have perceived myself to speak with other people in trance states to channel instructions from the alternate futures intended to alter the course of our current tangle of souls, has prepared me almost perfectly for this mission. Transformation through trauma. As horrific as it was for decades to regularly wake up injured in random geographic locations with a bag full of survival gear and a pocket full of notes taken during RB's investigations into what he believed to be a conspiracy to manipulate humanity through the construction of artificial digital realities, I now somewhat miss communicating with angels and daimons, channelers, and time-messengers but am much more capable of planned directed action. Expo70 and Shame Boy; you likely are more capable of concrete creation in concert than two of either of you would be alone. Shame Boy likely has a greater grasp on what is achievable (could be wrong, just guessing from experience), while Expo70 can probably reach further into possibility space to bring back plans which may or may not be readily materialisable. If we treat humans not as individuals but as co-orbiting collections of traits, you are likely a good generative pair. I believe that many people like us, who can be internally motivated, would benefit from something like a monastery where we can alternate between seclusion and interaction without wasting energy on artificial treadmills designed to extract cognitive energy from us. This is less clearly the case for people who are externally motivated, who tend toward self-destruction and consumption when not motivated by artificial scarcity. Artificial systems (states, corporations etc.) can extract much more cognitive energy in the short term by making people as externally motivated as possible, and then constructing a maze which extracts this energy by the passage of humans. In the long term, this eliminates the ability of novel thinkers to create paradigm shifts and renders the artificial system fragile and vulnerable to out-competition. One of my big goals is to create explore schemae in the hopes that co-operative small-scale artificial systems can be created which map the external motivations which really exist (land, free energy etc.) to internally motivated problem -solving, since I believe that the latter such people are ultimately more satisfied with their lives in the long-term. [1] https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2012-07888-001?doi=1
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Dec 16, 2023 03:15
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Expo70 posted:...we plateau somewhere around 7 digits and they can consistently remember 9 and they do it faster than we do. Matsuzawa suggests that we gave up those performance abilities in order to gain others, and there's a lot of mumuring in neurodivergent crowds that neurodivergence itself could be a form of cognitive tradeoff though there isn't really much in the way of research to my understanding. In an agent-centric worldview, which I tend to adopt, intelligence can be considered as the ability to take in information about the external world and to devise novel methods of achieving goals. That trick chimps do involves very little "intelligence". It's effectively just using their eyes as cameras and having a large visual buffer., and learning an extremely simple trick to do with that computational architecture Even then, I suspect a human of reasonable intelligence who genuinely cared about picking numbers in order on a screen would likely be able to develop the cognitive architecture to outperform almost all chimpanzees through mind-palace techniques etc., especially if they were able to communicate with other humans to learn what techniques are effective and how to learn them, or indeed teach them. In this model, the ability to model other human's behaviours, and to interact with them in a manner that gets us what we want is obviously one of the most important aspects of intelligence because it lets us outsource so much computational power to them. So far we are likely in agreement. I'm not sure I'm sold on your representation of "lifequesting gigadorks", and not just because I'm adjacent to that. I realised pretty early on that by far the most important factors in a modern life were the result of human action, so the most rational lifequest was to abandon explicitly logical behaviour, and to try to learn how to live in the human environment. Most of these people (who also tend to think that I am one of them at first) have existed in an environment where they have been constrained from playful exploration, rewarded for developing a certain set of skills, and not provided with enough trauma to shake them out of their programming. This isn't their fault. They're trapped in a constructed maze with no indication that it is possible to climb the walls to escape. They are the some of the most tragic of victims, in part because they tend to mean well and would happily contribute to a healthy society if they were born into one. Their soul-energy is simply slowly extracted from them until they are animated husks. In my opinion, they feel its absence, and try to compensate with what they have been told is good; financial success, awards, accolades etc. Fundamentally, many males feel a need for a mission. Females have an inherent value for the propagation of life, thus your hero's journey is to realise that you were valuable the whole time, so metacognition and emotional baggage dumping early is a good strategy. That is not the case for males, who are largely inherently valueless and must make ourselves valuable through accepting self-sacrifice, receiving a boon which we gift to our tribe establishing our value, defining our territory etc. Premature dumping of our emotional baggage dissipates the impetus to go through this process. An artificial system which interrupt this process can extract arbitrary amounts of energy from young men in their scrambling on the treadmill, but engages in parasitic castration by annihilating the population through delaying the maturation necessary for reproduction. A commensalist artificial system provides an environment in which this energy is channeled to allow maturation and continuity. Finally, I believe that it is better not to think of anyone as unspecial, so much an not distinctly special. Most humans have our triumphs and miseries, and the capacity to fulfill a personal mission if we choose one. Since narrative space is arbitrarily high-dimensional, there is plenty of room for everyone to be the main character of a different story if we are only good enough writers. Signing off now, good night!
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Dec 16, 2023 04:08
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| # ¿ May 15, 2024 10:25 |
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Shame Boy posted:so my pet theory is that schizophrenic symptoms are (or are at least associated with) the parts of the brain that do pattern matching being amplified so heavily that they start detecting noise as patterns... This is often referenced by some variation of the label "aberrant salience", with its inverse being latent inhibition. Just the right amount is delightful, and I suspect is a lot of the motivation for cannabis use amongst those who would like to summon a muse. I suspect it's also the source of a lot of rage found in people with schizoptypal symptoms. Dealing with people who can't see the patterns (regardless of whether they're stable and predictive), even when pointed out to them, can be incredibly frustrating. It often feels like most people have their latent inhibition dialed artificially high. Expo70 posted:So when I say lifequesting gigadork, I refer to folks who accrue resources pointlessly or need "that job" or "that huge amount of money", or "a compound", "that girlfriend", or "that book needs to be finished" or "when I get in shape" as an excuse to hold off on personal development Oh, I understand exactly what you're referencing. Apologies; the "Some day..." syndrome. Often paired with fantasies of unearned wealth and power over others. I think it's some kind of defense mechanism, and it can be really annoying! I still tend to think that a lot of these people tend to just lack benevolent leadership.
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Dec 16, 2023 13:39
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