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Well, after the slight debacle at the end of SFI episode 2, we decided to jump ahead in my list of hacks to check out and play Super Metroid: Eris next. Eris is a hack released in 2009 by Digital Mantra, or just DMantra for short. It was later updated again in 2012 with a slightly different version of the hack that was supposed to be more polished, and had some additional content towards the end. It's a very compact hack, taking place almost entirely on a single "world map", and in its original release was very open with its progression. The 2012 release seems to rein in some of that openness though, to the point where my memories of the original and the update were conflated together when playing. We're checking out the 2012 version, for the record. The biggest thing that defined Eris at the time was the incredible effort spent crafting each room. In 2009 there was nothing like it visually. Every room is meticulously designed using layering effects to show more detail than would normally be possible. Plenty took note, and this hack soon became an inspiration to many looking to up their visual design goals in their own hacks, myself included. That said, there are some big problems with the overly detailed environments in terms of actual playability that we will see as we play. The biggest one is often "where is the actual ground?" Spoiler alert, this is not going to be a full playthrough. Our opinions on the hack and why we're not finishing it will become clearer through the three videos we recorded. Try to enjoy the ride regardless, and definitely check out the hack for yourself if it looks at all interesting to you.  Episode 1: Questioning the freshness of salad
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Mar 23, 2024 17:24
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| # ? May 2, 2024 12:35 |
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 There's such a thing as too much detail, and I think this hack is a perfect example of that. Graphics in the foreground hiding Samus, unclear platforms, godawful color choices... For all the effort that the author put into details, they could have spent some of it ensuring visual clarity. This is not a nice-looking hack at all, and I'm having trouble understanding why people thought it was.
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Mar 23, 2024 20:49
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DoubleNegative posted:
It was just such a huge departure from everything that had come before it. People who play hacks tend to be desperate for new variety, and this hack sure provided that. Also, having played it, it's IMO not that bad. Yes, it's hard to read, but you can generally muddle your way through. The worst is when a room transition is hard to recognize, though, because that can easily keep you from progressing.
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Mar 23, 2024 20:52
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What stands out to me is the number of jumping morphballs needed to get around here. That's always been my turnoff to romhacks, when they require tricks that were just tricky bonuses in the original game. I can't hit those consistently, I've never been able to do more than one walljump in the Super Metroid engine, generally these days folks are more aware of that and at least communicate upfront what the hack asks of the player.
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Mar 23, 2024 20:57
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I kinda disagree with the sentiment. I can understand it, but I didn't find it particularly difficult to figure out what's floor and what isn't after the first half hour or so.
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Mar 23, 2024 21:01
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I think it's perfectly understandable why people were wowed by the presentation, and it's equally understandable why today, players and watchers are much more lukewarm towards it. You see similar trends in Mario romhacks, where someone does a cool thing and everybody goes "that's possible?!" and then it gets copied a bunch (often badly) until people claim it was never good. But it was! As a big step forward, and in context.
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Mar 23, 2024 21:13
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I think visually busy games like this probably work better when you're playing them yourself. If you're experiencing the narrowed perspective and increased focus of someone playing an action game, then you take in fewer of the extraneous details and it all becomes more reasonable. So I can see a difference of opinion between those who've played it before and those who haven't, even if I think the complaints about the visuals are justified.
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Mar 23, 2024 22:43
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Einander posted:I think visually busy games like this probably work better when you're playing them yourself. If you're experiencing the narrowed perspective and increased focus of someone playing an action game, then you take in fewer of the extraneous details and it all becomes more reasonable. So I can see a difference of opinion between those who've played it before and those who haven't, even if I think the complaints about the visuals are justified. This is something that comes up in one of the other two videos as a factor I never even thought to consider. For Artix and PW, the high level of detail combined unfavorably with discord's screenshare function, where it's not always going to be super smooth and can also have blurriness due to bitrate and stream issues. As the player, that's not a concern, but for a live viewer it causes problems. In the end, that's a big part of why I decided not to finish the hack with them, because we were already not feeling it and I didn't want to put them through the rest if the experience wasn't going to be great visually either.
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Mar 23, 2024 23:27
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This and DMantra's previous "graphically detailed" hack, Cliffhanger, both suffer a lot from "looks fine in screenshots" syndrome. There's a lot of creativity taken in trying to rework tile sets into new and interesting artistic formations, but in motion it's all a messy morass that distracts the player's eyes. Yeah, it's cool to slow down and piece through a reinterpretation of sprites into new patterns and designs, but it's not really fun. They're very impressive hacks from the standpoint of trying new things, visually. They're very annoying hacks to actually play through.
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Mar 24, 2024 02:13
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I'm of the opinion that there's no real reason to go back to Eris now, except to showcase it like this. V I T A L I T Y achieves the same goal but the presentation is so much better.
Bloody Pom fucked around with this message at 04:07 on Mar 24, 2024 |
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Mar 24, 2024 04:02
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I mean the presentation isn't great but I don't even think that's the reason we actually stopped. I think we got madder about the 2 missile packs and how it constantly sent us back and forth across the same obnoxious hallways.
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Mar 24, 2024 04:09
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Artix posted:I mean the presentation isn't great but I don't even think that's the reason we actually stopped. I think we got madder about the 2 missile packs and how it constantly sent us back and forth across the same obnoxious hallways. Yeah, DMantra's hacks were also advertised as "hardcore" and "expert" hacks, and at the time that clearly meant "everything does too much damage and/or you get very few resources and the room design does you no favors".
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Mar 24, 2024 04:13
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I mentioned a hack earlier in the thread I liked but had to quit because I couldn't Midair Mockball. I'm 80% positive it was Cliffhanger
Rabbi Raccoon fucked around with this message at 06:07 on Mar 24, 2024 |
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Mar 24, 2024 05:05
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Kurui Reiten posted:Yeah, DMantra's hacks were also advertised as "hardcore" and "expert" hacks, and at the time that clearly meant "everything does too much damage and/or you get very few resources and the room design does you no favors". What, really? I played some real bullshit hacks back in the day, and Eris did not compare to those at all, outside of maybe the Spore Spawn/Botwoon fights. IIRC all it demands from you, tech-wise, is midair morphs, walljumps, and understanding one weird interaction that you can probably get from experimentation (if you do a speedbooster-assisted jump from an air room to a water room, without gravity suit, you'll fly super high -- note that there's a runway before the jump, and also no way for you to have gravity suit at this point). There's no mochball, clips, snail climbs (or ice beam climbs), loving around with water levels, excessive spikes, or other nonsense that I've come to associate with "expert-level" hacks. I'm not going to say it's an easy hack, far from it. My scales are just calibrated differently, I guess.
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Mar 24, 2024 13:42
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:What, really? I played some real bullshit hacks back in the day, and Eris did not compare to those at all, outside of maybe the Spore Spawn/Botwoon fights. IIRC all it demands from you, tech-wise, is midair morphs, walljumps, and understanding one weird interaction that you can probably get from experimentation (if you do a speedbooster-assisted jump from an air room to a water room, without gravity suit, you'll fly super high -- note that there's a runway before the jump, and also no way for you to have gravity suit at this point). There's no mochball, clips, snail climbs (or ice beam climbs), loving around with water levels, excessive spikes, or other nonsense that I've come to associate with "expert-level" hacks. Well, I don't think Eris was portrayed that way. I specifically remember, though, Cliffhanger being touted as a "hard" hack to the point an Easy version was made. Eris was later though, might have been after some of that wave passed.
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Mar 24, 2024 19:45
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I didn't play Eris until last year, but I wouldn't call it difficult. It has a few moments where it can be hard, though. I stumbled onto Spore Spawn early on and that is NOT a fight you want to experience with 2 Energy Tanks. It's (mostly) open world and while I'm sure there's a route you're "supposed" to take there's every chance you run into a tough fight (the other option is like in Super Duper Metroid where the bosses have like, 5 HP). It doesn't even require any of the more complicated moves. For me, the hardest part was figuring out how to move forward, especially at the end
Rabbi Raccoon fucked around with this message at 00:18 on Mar 25, 2024 |
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Mar 25, 2024 00:13
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 Episode 2: The nostalgia goggles are slipping off Featured: My slow realization that this hack may not actually be as good as I remembered it, especially with commentators and actively trying to be entertaining.
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Mar 26, 2024 17:58
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What is it with SM romhacks and the idea it's fun to spend extended amounts of time underwater without the gravity suit?
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Mar 26, 2024 18:58
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SettingSun posted:What is it with SM romhacks and the idea it's fun to spend extended amounts of time underwater without the gravity suit? Fond memories of my first time playing Prime 1, going through the Crashed Frigate without the Gravity Suit, and the game eventually popping up a message of "hey man, just come back later when you have more stuff, OK?"
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Mar 26, 2024 19:51
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SettingSun posted:What is it with SM romhacks and the idea it's fun to spend extended amounts of time underwater without the gravity suit? I honestly don't mind them so much as long a they're not too long and it's clear that it's what you're supposed to be doing. I don't wanna slog through it and stumble onto the Gravity Suit in a completely different spot I had access to beforehand. I liked what Z-Factor did with the idea, though. There's a hidden route you can take before you get the Gravity Suit and if you complete it, you come to a secret room that has the Gravity Suit, Plasma Beam, and Screw Attack
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Mar 26, 2024 20:16
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the "disagree with kraden" thing is in golden sun 2
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Mar 26, 2024 20:36
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For the record, the item that FP tried to get with bombs was changed between the 2009 and 2012 versions of the hack. You used to get Evasion (which is Screw Attack with no damage) super early, which honestly made navigation a lot easier. The flipside is that some bosses were designed with the idea that you had to use it (imagine having to spinjump through Spore Spawn every time it switched which side of the screen it's on). 2012 moved it later, and then made those bosses somewhat easier as compensation. As for Evasion itself: honestly I don't mind. Screw Attack is super gamebreaking, unless you acquire it after you've already trivialized combat with the wave-plasma beam. The weaker version can be handed out much earlier, and makes navigation more interesting: you don't have to fight everything you meet, so long as you can spinjump through them instead. I won't try to defend the extended underwater navigation sections. All I'll say is that they're very true to the era in which the hack was made. Not that I think anyone liked them back then either, but hack makers added them anyway. TooMuchAbstraction fucked around with this message at 21:15 on Mar 26, 2024 |
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Mar 26, 2024 21:12
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Even modern hacks like making you do underwater-without-Gravity runs. It's especially prominent in Zero Mission and Fusion hacks. The darling from last year, Desolation, made you do a lot, a lot of underwater nonsense before finally giving you gravity. So it's not a "oh they've learned better with time" deal - hack makers very much have not. They're just convinced that if you don't earn Gravity by doing Maridia suitless, then it's not worthwhile.
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Mar 26, 2024 22:56
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DoubleNegative posted:Even modern hacks like making you do underwater-without-Gravity runs. It's especially prominent in Zero Mission and Fusion hacks. The darling from last year, Desolation, made you do a lot, a lot of underwater nonsense before finally giving you gravity. So it's not a "oh they've learned better with time" deal - hack makers very much have not. They're just convinced that if you don't earn Gravity by doing Maridia suitless, then it's not worthwhile. On one hand, I can see where they're coming from, but it seems a little much. I can fully get behind a small section of required underwater exploring without the Gravity Suit, so it feels like a more important upgrade when you finally get it. But like, max it out at around 30 minutes to an hour.
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Mar 26, 2024 23:17
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When you look at the actual (vanilla) games, the way they introduce you to the value of Gravity Suit is by using water as a punishment. Super Metroid has the lead-up to Wrecked Ship. Fusion has the very small portion of the AQA sector that you explore before fighting Serris. Zero Mission has hardly any water, but there is a short section in the lead-up to getting Power Grip. You have to do some tricky platforming, with water below you for a tedious backtrack when you gently caress up, and you learn pretty quickly "wow, this sure sucks!" Then you get the suit and the punishment goes away.
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Mar 26, 2024 23:24
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If I was going to do a hack and make a force non-Gravity water section, I'd probably just redo the water physics to be less of a chore. You don't need to move like you're in a bowl of jello without Gravity, just make your jump less powerful and disable Speed Booster and other movement-based abilities, but let Samus move at a decent speed.
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Mar 26, 2024 23:33
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:When you look at the actual (vanilla) games, the way they introduce you to the value of Gravity Suit is by using water as a punishment. Super Metroid has the lead-up to Wrecked Ship. Fusion has the very small portion of the AQA sector that you explore before fighting Serris. Zero Mission has hardly any water, but there is a short section in the lead-up to getting Power Grip. This is neither here nor there, but the bit in Zero Mission before Power Grip and the bit before the Wrecked Ship in Super Metroid are the exact same rooms!  Legitimately the same rooms. Same layout and everything. The Wrecked Ship fell right on top of Chozodia.
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Mar 27, 2024 01:13
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I don't actually hate dealing with underwater sections without gravity suit, but it absolutely depends on how the hack handles the level/world design. Like, vanilla is pretty obviously designed where water is pretty much just lava that you need to avoid altogether or find a means to mitigate it. Meanwhile, you've got something like Super Metroid Redesign, where you've got an entire water-filled section in the bottom-right corner of Crateria that you need to be able to navigate in order to get the Gravity Suit. It's kind of a mixed bag, to be honest. It does actually handle underwater navigation fairly well in terms of moment to moment gameplay, but also you have to navigate most of this section, and have to fight a couple of the kung-fu pirates underwater, which blows. Axeil Edition does mitigate this by allowing you to use the grapple beam to circumvent most of the underwater section (though this shortcut is also bullshit for it's own reasons). The individual rooms are actually pretty decent, but just, the larger level structure lets the whole thing down completely. And then, there's Super Junkoid, where its maridia equivalent is where you find the gravity suit, and it's what I'd immediately point to as the prime example of gravity-less underwater segments not being inherently awful. The level design expects you to have to deal with the underwater physics, and puts a lot of care in making it feel not poo poo to have to deal with, just via the room design, and not making you waste a ton of time without the gravity suit as well. You *can* explore a huge amount of this while suffering the water physics, but also if you follow a pretty sensible path laid out for you from the start, you're guided very well to the gravity suit. I absolutely get the aversion to these sorts of segments in romhacks, but I guess, after dealing with a couple in these hacks, I'm a lot more open to the idea of dealing with the underwater physics than I was before. As long as the level design actually pulls its weight, I'm willing to put up with it.
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Mar 27, 2024 02:24
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Any mod/romhack community is an example both of how ingenious some people can be and how hard actually good game design is.
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Mar 27, 2024 03:07
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I feel like it really boils down to how water sections without Gravity Suit are used. Like, Super Metroid Limit. You have to do the entirety of Maridia and Draygon without Gravity Suit, and then there's a section where you can go off and do a difficult optional section to get the Plasma Beam and THEN you can get the Gravity Suit. Oh, and if you get the Gravity Suit first? Plasma Beam is inaccessible. Have fun with Spazer!
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Mar 27, 2024 04:30
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How do they render it inaccessible if you have gravity? Isn't that kind of antithetical to.. well everything that is metroid?
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Mar 27, 2024 14:15
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I assume having an indestructible shutter close based on a trigger linked to the gravity suit is possible within super metroid. Said shutter probably has a pixel middle finger painted on hit because, well, Kurieg posted:Isn't that kind of antithetical to.. well everything that is metroid? Yes, yes it is. It feels too much like standard tantrum #45 from hard mode hack creators, punishing the Dirty CasualsTM that don't appreciate True Skill and VisionTM.
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Mar 27, 2024 14:29
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Pretty much. The first room gets filled in with unmovable terrain when you get the Gravity Suit.
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Mar 27, 2024 14:57
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That's dumb as hell.
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Mar 27, 2024 16:18
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C-Euro posted:That's dumb as hell. At that point I think the only reason I finished it was because of pride
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Mar 27, 2024 16:25
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It's also worth pointing out that Limit was also a hack from 2005, and at the time would've been probably the earliest example of a full hack that was also a challenge hack. It experimented with all kinds of ideas that weren't as well known to the small community yet, with mixed results such as the Plasma Beam being nearly impossible to get. But for every bad idea, it also had some really cool ideas. The one that stands out the most to me is that partway into the game you take an elevator to a room with two doors on the same side of the screen. The room beyond is split into two small rooms, both sides inaccessible from the other. Each side has a new upgrade: Super Missiles or Power Bombs. If you take one and leave the room, the other will disappear. Where you go in the next part of the game is dictated by the selection you made in that room, and will send you down a different path until you hit a major boss, after which point you'll get a progression item from the boss and the other upgrade you didn't choose at the split room. It's a really standout moment for the hack that I've never really seen other hacks do again, likely because it takes a lot of level design planning to pull off, since you have to weave two separate paths into the world depending on the player's selection.
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Mar 27, 2024 17:12
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Dread had a fair bit of suitless water. The search for the very important but very hidden energy tank reminds me a lot of my experience with Vitality. That's the same author years later, right? Is that planned as part of this thread?
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Mar 27, 2024 17:27
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Having recently beaten Vitality for the first time, I'm open to it because I think he definitely learned how to better tile things to still have detail but also be pretty visible on what's foreground and what's background and generally enjoyed my time with the game, but I think I'd want to change out commentators. My VLDC LPs partner-in-crime Tyty expressed interest to me about sitting in a call and recording it some time. But Vitality will require at least a little bit of editing towards the end due to, uh...., artistic? decisions? on the part of DMantra. Whatever the case, that's probably gonna be a later project if it happens.
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Mar 27, 2024 17:39
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kinda random question: in a previous romhacks megathread, somebody played some super metroid hack with tool-assisted gameplay, recorded those inputs, and then made the vid based off of replaying the inputs. the hack was also very visually messy, i had a really hard time telling what was foreground/background. the actual question is, does anyone know what hack that was, and/or what thread?
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Mar 27, 2024 18:38
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| # ? May 2, 2024 12:35 |
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Wasn't that Eris edit: yes
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Mar 27, 2024 18:43
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