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mcmagic posted:He's a lock. New York, The Giants are a white hat franchise, 2 Super Bowls, he's a well liked media friendly guy who is VERY visible, "Manning". This is kinda my point though? There are other famous, title-winning, media-friendly New York quarterbacks. Charlie Conerly married a sportswriter, Phil Simms has been on CBS for decades. Among the league's biggest stars of their eras. None of them are close to getting in, and I don't see how Eli is any more special. I want to see someone make an argument for Eli that doesn't assume the voters are stupid dumb-dumbs who get distracted by shiny things (and doesn't reflect their actual voting history). Because this whole "debate" feels very strawman-y right now. Benne fucked around with this message at 16:52 on Feb 9, 2024 |
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Feb 9, 2024 16:49
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Benne posted:Phil Simms has been on CBS for decades. Right or wrong, though, Simms would have probably gotten in by now if he'd won that second Super Bowl instead of Hostetler. Two rings are just too much for sportswriter brain to ignore.
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Feb 9, 2024 16:57
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Black Lighter posted:Right or wrong, though, Simms would have probably gotten in by now if he'd won that second Super Bowl instead of Hostetler. Two rings are just too much for sportswriter brain to ignore. Unless you're jim plunkett
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Feb 9, 2024 17:07
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I was so excited about Devin Hester I didn't notice that Antonio Gates got snubbed. Thats crazy. He should be in, and I expect will be next year. I don't think Eli Manning deserves to be in, but will get in
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Feb 9, 2024 17:15
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Forrest on Fire posted:Why the gently caress isn't Jim Marshall in. Probably because his most famous highlight is of him loving up in the worst possible way. Not defending it though, he should be in.
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Feb 9, 2024 17:24
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Now that Terrell Davis is in and the NFL admits longevity is irrelevant, Gastineau should be in for a 4 year stretch of being 1st/2nd team All Pro too.
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Feb 9, 2024 17:27
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Forrest on Fire posted:Now that Terrell Davis is in and the NFL admits longevity is irrelevant, Gastineau should be in for a 4 year stretch of being 1st/2nd team All Pro too. Pretty sure he can only go in as a veteran's committee guy, which means a bunch of his contemporaries would have to forget that he was a loud and vocal scab. So that'll never happen.
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Feb 9, 2024 17:32
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mcmagic posted:Eli is going to get in but he's clearly not anywhere close to a HOF stats wise. Believe it or not regular season stats shouldn't dictate the HoF and have no bearing on Super Bowls, something that actually matters. Eli was objectively a better QB than many other QBs that put up better numbers ranging from aptitude to actual success in the playoffs. Not to mention he's better than most of his contemporaries where it actually mattered in playoff stats. It sucks for stats nerds that you can't be a child putting a triangle shape into a triangle hole by pointing out some people had more numbers. Grozz Nuy posted:Earl Thomas should absolutely be in the Hall, are you nuts Overrated. Everyone else on Seattle's secondary made up for his deficiencies. He had some ball hawk status but completely overrated in tackling and coverage.
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Feb 9, 2024 17:50
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The Chargers social media team continues its excellence. I had forgotten Dwight Freeney was a Charger. Apparently he had 4 sacks across two years in San Diego. If Google is to be trusted he is the 7th player from Connecticut to be elected to the hall of fame. Most of the other ones were old time players. Edit: Google is not to be 100% trusted. Eugene Robinson is not in the Hall of Fame, but Google thinks he is. This was my query, "nfl hall of fame players from connecticut". Edit 2: Harry Jacunski is in the Packer HOF but not the overall HOF. That means that there are only 5 HOF players from Connecticut, and Dwight Freeney is the only living one. Anderson Koopa fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Feb 9, 2024 |
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Feb 9, 2024 18:10
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Black Lighter posted:Pretty sure he can only go in as a veteran's committee guy, which means a bunch of his contemporaries would have to forget that he was a loud and vocal scab. So that'll never happen. Oh I missed that entire part nvm id rather have mongo than a shithead scab. I am too young to have experienced the finer points of that era of labor disputes.
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Feb 9, 2024 18:24
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Benne posted:This is kinda my point though? There are other famous, title-winning, media-friendly New York quarterbacks. Charlie Conerly married a sportswriter, Phil Simms has been on CBS for decades. Among the league's biggest stars of their eras. None of them are close to getting in, and I don't see how Eli is any more special. OK, here is my good faith attempt to make a case for Eli Manning. 1) RINGZ. Just getting it out of the way, it shouldn't be (and occasionally isn't, e.g. Plunkett) enough, but for QBs it is weighted super heavily for sure, and he as 2. 2) Longevity/counting stats. Again, big accumulated numbers aren't everything, but they clearly do help. He's top 10 all-time in completions/attempts/yards/TDs. 3) Awards. He's meh here overall with 4x Pro Bowls 1x Walter Payton Man of the Year, but the 2x Super Bowl MVP do bump it up a notch. Since he's going to be carried a lot by his rings, the fact that he was MVP in both games and not just A Guy boosts that further. 4) The big argument against his rings is "the defense carried those teams lol". But not only was he MVP in both Super Bowls, in the two Super Bowl runs he combined for 15 touchdowns to only 2 picks. He actually was EXTREMELY instrumental in those playoff runs. 5) Narrative. Both his SB wins were against the greatest dynasty in NFL history in tight games where he made big plays. He gave the Pats 2 out of their 3 Super Bowl losses in the Brady era, including stopping the 16-0 regular season team from getting a ring. There's no arguing that on paper he's a weak-ish candidate. Pro Football Reference has an index based on how much like prior HOFers a player is, and Eli scores pretty meh there, but also worse-scoring guys have gotten in so he's not WILDLY off based on  the metrics either.
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Feb 9, 2024 18:30
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While I appreciate the effort post, thissean10mm posted:5) Narrative. Both his SB wins were against the greatest dynasty in NFL history in tight games where he made big plays. He gave the Pats 2 out of their 3 Super Bowl losses in the Brady era, including stopping the 16-0 regular season team from getting a ring. is the only thing that matters. Dude led his team to 2 super bowl wins against Goliath while being face of the franchise for 15 years. That is more than enough for the Hall of Fame.
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Feb 9, 2024 18:39
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To all the Eli doubters, I direct you to this reference video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAgLCrv4B4M
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Feb 9, 2024 18:47
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Mr. Nice! posted:To all the Eli doubters, I direct you to this reference video. Forget waiting, induct him in the HoF right now.
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Feb 9, 2024 18:51
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I like seeing people blubber about Eli's regular season stats while "much better" qbs were way less successful than him. It's almost as if a QB in a run first offense for the first 5 years of his career with an OC so bad that he got punched out on the sidelines might have less stats than some shotgun pass first QBs.
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Feb 9, 2024 19:02
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The Puppy Bowl posted:While I appreciate the effort post, this Yeah, people can sneer at the ~narrative~ but like, you just can't tell the story of that Patriots rampage era that basically lasted a generation without the guy who was instrumental in denying them 2 rings and stopping 19-0. All the other stuff basically just makes it easier for the HOF voters to mash the buttan sooner to let him in.
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Feb 9, 2024 19:04
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sean10mm posted:Yeah, people can sneer at the ~narrative~ but like, you just can't tell the story of that Patriots rampage era that basically lasted a generation without the guy who was instrumental in denying them 2 rings and stopping 19-0. It's this. The 07 and 11 giants are the only ones to slay the beast. Eli went off in both games and was voted MVP. That's enough right there.
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Feb 9, 2024 19:06
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Eli to the Hall Brady to fall.
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Feb 9, 2024 19:28
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Can't a line from Eli be drawn to both "Decade of Spectacular Failure" and "Perfect Spherical Tits"? I'm sure of the first one, not so much the second, but if that's the case, how can any goon not support his first ballot entry?
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Feb 9, 2024 19:44
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the perfect spheres was literally a post about Eli yes
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Feb 9, 2024 19:46
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wandler20 posted:Eli will get in more because of his name than anything he did on the field. You can't tell the story of TOM BRADY without the man who kneed him in the balls twice. Eli would get in on his deeds even if his name was Brzęczyszczykiewicz.
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Feb 9, 2024 19:53
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Mr. Nice! posted:It's this. The 07 and 11 giants are the only ones to slay the beast. Sir. Sir.
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Feb 9, 2024 20:05
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One thing that should be noted in Eli's case was that he's spent his retirement years close to the game in a very visible way making connections through the industry and nobody seems to have any personal beef with him, and that will matter on a vote whether you think it should or not. I obviously want Eli in the hall and will personally spend a full year dunking on everyone mad about it if he does get in, but I think there's genuinely a fair argument on both sides. His playoff success is his best argument by far. Slaying the dragon twice, winning SB MVP in the process, that poo poo matters and will remain NFL legend. His iron man streak was amazing and only ended because of dysfunction. He finished his career in top ten all time stats for TDs and Yards, despite, as Daltos mentioned, The Giants being a very run-first team for at the very least the first half of his tenure and Eli never having a HoF weapon like Gates to play with. Cruz, Nicks, Plax, Toomer, Shockey, OBJ, all dudes who were good but not HOF good and often left the team after a term or got hurt. He never had his Marvin Harrison or Jason Witten to help. But, he also never sniffed an MVP award and his best season by far (2011) was still overshadowed by other QBs the same year. There's no year outside 2011 where you can call Eli one of the best QBs that season, and thats kinda damning. He's low on the all-pro and Pro bowl nods for a guy in his era. Wins aren't a QB stat but his overall record is literally .500 and you better believe that is going to affect votes. He threw a lot of picks. These are all fairly reasonable reasons to keep him in the hall of very good and out of the hall of fame, and he's up against what is already a log jam of guys with much better QB nods coming in the following years like Brees and Big Ben and Brady. Now he has to go against Antonio Gates next year too. If he doesn't get in first ballot he might just end up constantly squeezed out until he fades away. He's first ballot in my heart
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Feb 9, 2024 20:14
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It's the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of One of the Best at Their Position. And Eli is famous!
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Feb 9, 2024 20:25
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I appreciate this discussion quite a bit for Julian Edelman's eventual HoF induction
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Feb 9, 2024 20:26
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The Hall of Fame used to mean being the very best at your position for a long time but now it means being famous which results in the 10th best returner of all time getting in while people ignore that Dante Hall made people talk about special teams well before Hester. You only need two good seasons and a super bowl highlight now. Grats all the mediocre guys out there and ty Hester for for sure securing Eli's place.
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Feb 9, 2024 20:28
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Doltos posted:The Hall of Fame used to mean being the very best at your position for a long time but now it means being famous which results in the 10th best returner of all time getting in while people ignore that Dante Hall made people talk about special teams well before Hester. You only need two good seasons and a super bowl highlight now. Grats all the mediocre guys out there and ty Hester for for sure securing Eli's place. Kalli posted:I appreciate this discussion quite a bit for Julian Edelman's eventual HoF induction
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Feb 9, 2024 20:31
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Kalli posted:I appreciate this discussion quite a bit for Julian Edelman's eventual HoF induction Major knock on Edelman is he's the exact same guy as Wes Welker, Chris Hogan, and Danny Amendola. Should we put all of them in as some grotesquely scrappy chimera? Sure. Just one head of the hydra? Nah.
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Feb 9, 2024 20:47
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wandler20 posted:Not sure any of these are sure fire first ballot guys. Ya'll better mentally prepare yourselves for "Eli Manning, 1st ballot Hall of Famer". Cause its coming. Doltos posted:The Hall of Fame used to mean being the very best at your position for a long time but now it means being famous which results in the 10th best returner of all time getting in while people ignore that Dante Hall made people talk about special teams well before Hester. You only need two good seasons and a super bowl highlight now. Grats all the mediocre guys out there and ty Hester for for sure securing Eli's place. Hall of FAME, not Hall of STATS
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Feb 9, 2024 20:59
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If Hester gets in, put Mike Alstott in. Here, I'll even give you an 8 minute video of him doing cool poo poo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcxzxWsJIfQ
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Feb 9, 2024 21:05
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Julian Edelman Lmao if he gets in, then just burn the building down. Name it hall of Twitter or something
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Feb 9, 2024 21:09
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The Puppy Bowl posted:Major knock on Edelman is he's the exact same guy as Wes Welker, Chris Hogan, and Danny Amendola. Should we put all of them in as some grotesquely scrappy chimera? Sure. Just one head of the hydra? Nah. We've determined that narrative and clutchness play key factors, which puts Edelman above the other scrappy white guys
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Feb 9, 2024 21:11
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If Eli gets in Edleman will have a case but if Eli doesn't get in Edleman is toast Hester going in is a good sign for both
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Feb 9, 2024 21:14
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fartknocker posted:Forget waiting, induct him in the HoF right now. The slayer of dragons deserves such an honor
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Feb 9, 2024 22:20
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I've always been of the opinion that if you have the accumulative stats over a long period the no ability like availability vibes kind of kick in, similarly I think you should go in if you can't tell the story of the NFL without that person for more than a year. Eli fits that latter bill pretty readily. Then you have the third - guys like Luke were just so good for their relatively short careers I think they deserve to be there too. Then you get guys like Steve Smith / Holt / Johnson etc who have good but not great counting numbers and had a good but not great impact on the game that people will debate. I think if you're putting guys Hester and Davis in Eli, Luke, Smith Snr etc all deserve to go in but I don't mind a big hall. I think the Eli might not have had enough of an impact with the whole 'story of the league" concept but his good counting stats make up the difference if that makes some kind of sense? TBH I don't like the idea of not putting a player in because a few fans might get mad, when their peers agree with them being in and it means so much to the player to be recognized.
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Feb 9, 2024 23:12
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BlindSite posted:I've always been of the opinion that if you have the accumulative stats over a long period the no ability like availability vibes kind of kick in, similarly I think you should go in if you can't tell the story of the NFL without that person for more than a year. Eli fits that latter bill pretty readily. This is what's gonna get Philip Rivers in
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Feb 9, 2024 23:17
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The Rivers teeth for eyes photoshop should bar him from getting in, it's too unsettling
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Feb 9, 2024 23:36
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sean10mm posted:Yeah, people can sneer at the ~narrative~ but like, you just can't tell the story of that Patriots rampage era that basically lasted a generation without the guy who was instrumental in denying them 2 rings and stopping 19-0. i have no personal rooting interest in the new york football giants or eli manning, but it seems so implausible to me that eli manning would not go into the hall of fame next year. itd bet just about anything on it. Febreeze posted:If Eli gets in Edleman will have a case but if Eli doesn't get in Edleman is toast these three things dont have anything to do with one another.
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Feb 9, 2024 23:42
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Doltos posted:The Hall of Fame used to mean being the very best at your position for a long time but now it means being famous which results in the 1.0th best returner of all time getting in while people ignore that Dante Hall made people talk about special teams well before Hester. You only need two good seasons and a super bowl highlight now. Grats all the mediocre guys out there and ty Hester for for sure securing Eli's place. You forgot a decimal, don't worry I fixed it.
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Feb 9, 2024 23:45
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post hole digger posted:these three things dont have anything to do with one another. The idea is that Hester is so overrated and underwhelming as anything other than a returner in the mid 2000's when special teams were still made up of reject LBs that a two time winning Super Bowl MVP is bound to get in.
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Feb 9, 2024 23:49
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