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Which season of Doctor Who should get a Blu-ray set next?
This poll is closed.
One of the black-and-white seasons 16 29.63%
Season 7 7 12.96%
Season 11 1 1.85%
Season 13 0 0%
Season 15 2 3.70%
The Key to Time 21 38.89%
Season 21 0 0%
Season 25 7 12.96%
Total: 54 votes
[Edit Poll (moderators only)]

 
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Warthur
May 2, 2004



I just got to The Day of the Doctor on my rewatch and my main thought was "Wow, this really doesn't fit with The End of Time at all", but equally I can sort of understand Grand Moff Steven's impulse to overlook it. (Hell, he already retconned Stolen Earth/Journey's End out of existence with some throwaway lines in Victory of the Daleks).

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Warthur
May 2, 2004



Open Source Idiom posted:

Isn't End of Time happening simultaneously? I swear they reference Rassilon hanging out with his forces doing a hail mary.

They do mention it in passing. What isn't clear is how Gallifrey being locked a little spacetime pocket per Rassilon's plan in that materially differs from Gallifrey being locked in a little spacetime pocket per the gambit the Doctors pull off in Day of the Doctor.

I mean, unless I badly misinterpreted the end of The End of Time, Gallifrey isn't destroyed at the end of that, it just goes back into the weird timelocked state the rest of the Time War is in - and so could presumably be extracted again, albeit not via the Master-based means Rassilon had planned.

And even if that's not the case, you still have a setup where "actually, the time colonialists were bad, we should probably keep them in the cupboard" has this tension with "but think of the time colonialists' children, maybe we should let them out of the cupboard" and I am not sure I wholly trust Moffat to handle that (I've only just started on 12th Doctor stuff, which I had seen none of before bar Twice Upon a Time).

I don't know, I just think Moffat wanted to pivot back from "oh no, actually Gallifrey is a bad place" to "I miss Gallifrey :(" but didn't really do the legwork prior to Day of the Doctor to sell me on that. Which, given that he had three chuffing seasons to do it in, is pretty negligent.

Warthur
May 2, 2004



Jerusalem posted:

Yep, they comment that Rassilon is off doing his own thing and they can't rely on him to save them/fight for them. We can presume that Rassilon's plan to "ascend" was to do so with a chosen political elite and he was willing to leave everybody else on the planet to die.
Except not because explicitly the entire planet shows up in orbit around Earth in The End of Time.

EDIT: Also, the visuals in End of Time seem fairly clearly set up to give the impression that the majority of Gallifrey is firmly behind Rassilon. He might have his elite war council but his plan is announced in a massive assembly hall (ripping off the Star Wars prequels because End of Time was really big on its Star Wars riffs, it even has a Millennium Falcon in it), with only two people out of the masses and masses of folk there dissenting. In terms of what the show presents us with, there's no basis to think that there's sad Gallifreyan children getting exterminated or brave little soldiers on the front lines - especially considering the way RTD made the Time War seem weird and mythic and distinctly unconventional in his allusions to it - and "But what about the kids?" is basically something Moffat adds in. It's a legitimate alternate take, but it's an alternate take which to my mind goes beyond responding to what RTD did in End of Time and creeps into disrespecting it.

Warthur fucked around with this message at 04:02 on Dec 31, 2023

Warthur
May 2, 2004



Jerusalem posted:

I was sure he said they planned to "ascend" to something akin to the Eternals and essentially cease to exist as material/physical beings, wiping out the rest of the universe to "win" the war while protecting those Rassilon deemed worthy of joining him?
In the bit you quote I speak not of the state Gallifrey was in post-ascension, I speak of the intermediate state it was in after the Doctor ended the Time War and before The End of Time happens, where Rassilon has rules lawyered it into a bubble of time towards the end of the War or something.

People in this thread are probably right, I misunderstood and misremembered. But the mere fact I did get confused when I got to The End of Time in my watchthrough really not that long ago suggests that Moffat didn't do enough heavy lifting in this episode to avoid the question. A bit where Clara drags the Eleventh Doctor aside and said "I thought you said Gallifrey hopped out of the Time War thanks to Rassilon's plan?" and he said "Yes, but I sort of had to make it hop back again" would have been enough for me, and would have also been a chance for Eleven to say "FFS don't tell Ten or War about anything I've told you, they probably won't remember it and if they did you could seriously gently caress up my timeline."

Maybe it's RTD's fault for making the situation in The End of Time rather confusing? It perhaps isn't helpful that RTD (and to an extent Moffat) has a tendency to treat time and space as basically the same thing, so "locked in a bubble of time towards the end of the Time War, which has been partitioned off from the rest of the time stream" ends up feeling functionally identical to "locked in a pocket universe separate from the rest of space", even if in principle those should be different things.

Maybe it's my fault for thinking too hard about the continuity stuff, rather than the story at hand.

But actually, gently caress you, it's not my fault: when the story at hand is specifically obsessed with continuity, I am going to pay attention to continuity, and when you have two stories explaining their concepts in as hurried and technobabble-filled manner as those two confusion is inevitable.

Warthur fucked around with this message at 07:12 on Dec 31, 2023

Warthur
May 2, 2004



Folks I am glad and grateful you can all explain to me how End of Time and Day of the Doctor fit together and I genuinely don't need another explanation at this stage, my point is more that I shouldn't need you all to explain it because Moffat should have made it clearer. Brief lines about "the High Council are doing something" don't cut it.

Warthur
May 2, 2004



MikeJF posted:



The assembly hall is specifically called out as the Time Lord High Council. It looks to be maybe a couple of hundred people? And it's strongly implied that Rassilon has purged everyone who isn't his type.
a) A couple.of hundred people in quantitative numbers but, more significantly from an artistic perspective, 100% of the Time Lords (other than the Doctor and the Master) that RTD ever showed us. From the perspective of the text as it existed up to that point - IOW, from the perspective you're watching End of Time from if you are watching the show in order - that's symbolically.and artistically shorthand for "all of Gallifrey".

b) We know exactly how many people weren't Rassilon's type and what happened to them: there's two of them and they're the figures covering their eyes next to Rassilon. So we're talking 1% or less not going along with the plan.

Warthur
May 2, 2004



MikeJF posted:

We saw another one earlier and he vapourised her. So he's texturally been cleaning house of who he can and intimidating everyone with his murders.

Yeesh, you're right, that detail slid off my brain, probably because of the emphasis given to the two mystery women which then came to absolutely nothing because neither Moffat nor Chibnall were interested in yes-anding that part.

Warthur
May 2, 2004



Fair Bear Maiden posted:

It had been long enough that Moffat had to consider the fact that there was a whole segment of the public who hadn't even watched The End of Time, so stopping the 50th special dead in its tracks to explain how they fit together in detail probably wasn't the best choice.

Right, but he clearly thought there was space for a quick exchange of dialogue and I don't think that exchange worked for me in terms of clarifying what the cosmological difference between the plans are.

My basic misunderstanding was thinking that Rassilon etc. had kind of put Gallifrey into pocket dimensional storage already, rather than shifting it in time from the last moments of the Time War to present day Earth orbit, so an exchsnge along the lines of "We've had reports of some sort of massive time-shift, a wobble in our galactic coordinates..." "It's something to do with the High Council's plan. Apparently they failed..." would have taken no more or less time but would have helped me immensely.

EDIT: Also if you want something accessible to people who've not got a strong grasp on continuity, you... don't make an episode where the A-plot is absolutely drenched in continuity and the B-plot is a sequel to a nearly 40 year old story. I think the fundamental missions the episode has of "Celebrate 50 years of the show's past" and "provide a special that people who aren't regular watchers can enjoy" were always going to trip it up and the real failure is the failure to simply pick one lane and stick to it.

Warthur fucked around with this message at 17:41 on Dec 31, 2023

Warthur
May 2, 2004



Got to The Caretaker in my watchthrough. I appreciate the attempt to examine the tension between anti-militarism and not being a prejudiced rear end in a top hat towards people who may have been in the military in the past but aren't necessarily onboard with that now... but at the same time, I struggle to blame the Doctor for constantly reducing Danny to "ex-soldier" when he has exactly three personality traits, "ex-soldier", "dates Clara", and "teaches maths", and all the narrative weight is resting on the first two. (The fact that Danny uses military-based analogies to explain why he bristles at the Doctor particularly emphasises this; if you want to show that his mindset and outlook and ideology are not solely shaped by his stint in the military, maybe show that his mental horizons are broader than that, you know?)

Warthur
May 2, 2004



Sydney Bottocks posted:

2. I see someone never watched the Pertwee years.
None of the soldiers in UNIT ever became travelling companions of the Doctor. At most some of them took brief trips but that's not enough to meet the criteria of Companion in my book, which is that you travel with the Doctor in the TARDIS across consecutive stories. (Liz Shaw gets an exception solely because the TARDIS was broken during her one season, and had it been functional then clearly she'd have been travelling in it regularly - by contrast it was super rare for the Brigadier or Benton or Yates to take trips in it, even in the two seasons when it was working fine.)

Warthur
May 2, 2004



I'm probably a bad person but when I saw the bit where Danny talks about how he dug a bunch of wells and people don't talk about that in connection with military service half of my brain thought "Well, Oxfam and that lot dig plenty of wells without the armed forces component so it kind of makes sense that people concentrate on the stuff unique to militaries which make them militaries" and half of my brain thought that this was a really weird use of the "...but you gently caress one sheep..." joke.

Though if we are going to morally condemn Danny, we may as well do it for him and Clara deciding it was perfectly fine to let all the kids fry in a solar flare in In the Forest of the Night because it was better to get them home to their parents, to die screaming and burning in their arms, than let them go off with the Doctor in the TARDIS to maybe survive somewhere.

Sure, the kids all survived and the flare didn't kill anyone because checks notes... a magic instant forest stopped it? No, clearly my notes are wrong. Anyway, something happened in that episode which clearly wasn't the forest thing, because that would be stupid, and the kids lived. But based on the knowledge Clara and Danny had, they were condemning the kids to die without even getting their opinions (the flare was news to the kids, a later scene emphasises this). What the gently caress?

For that matter, Danny loses a ton of points with me when he talks up how he doesn't want to go on a TARDIS trip even to watch a solar flare from an unbeatable vantage point because he's just too normie to enjoy or like anything weird or special, and then mere breaths later repeats Maebh's point about trusting more and fearing less. I get that he's meant to be a more grounded character who's suspicious of the TARDIS and doesn't want to get caught up in weird poo poo but there's a point where you seem to lack imagination, curiosity, and soul, and the point when he's passing up a chance to witness cosmic wonder and would rather condemn kids to die as solar radiation flash-barbecues them a la the Terminator 2 nuclear war scene is way, way beyond that point.

Warthur fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Jan 1, 2024

Warthur
May 2, 2004



Rochallor posted:

When they say "fan-favorite the Sea Devils," to which fan in particular are they referring?
A lucky one who missed Warriors of the Deep and Legend of the Sea Devils, clearly.

Warthur
May 2, 2004



Sydney Bottocks posted:

A) She's still a member of UNIT

B)This entire line of conversation has been hashed out pretty thoroughly, and I'm fairly sure the thread as a whole is very sick of it, so let's just leave it lying here on the ground where it belongs
Agreed, let me write the headstone on this sidetrack:

DoctorWhat posted:

The doctor doesn't want to travel with soldiers because the doctor wants companions who are creative, self-directed, and will challenge him.

Sydney Bottocks posted:

2. I see someone never watched the Pertwee years.

Warthur posted:

None of the soldiers in UNIT ever became travelling companions of the Doctor.

Sydney Bottocks posted:

Jo Grant did, and she was a civilian member of UNIT, which is a UN-sponsored governmental paramilitary secret police kind of organization, so my original point still stands.

SiKboy posted:

Remind me what the word civilian mean?

If you had a brainfart and lost the track of the conversation that's fine but the polite thing to do is to acknowledge and concede that you did, and I'm happy to risk an infraction to tell you that. :)

Warthur
May 2, 2004



Jerusalem posted:

It very rarely comes up in the history books but Dalekmania was actually a cover for a blushing nation that had secretly put pin-ups of William Hartnell in their bedrooms.
"This old body of mine is wearing a bit thicc."

Warthur
May 2, 2004



CobiWann posted:

Some people even say Davison was a better veterinarian than a doctor!
I'm sad about Davison polling last but not surprised because he's my own second favourite after McCoy - he feels like the sort of Doctor where even if you rank him highly he's not going to be the first one you think of.

Warthur
May 2, 2004



Got to Dark Water/Death In Heaven in my watchthrough.

The scene where Clara gives a speech to CyberDanny about how she and the Doctor are best friends and she'd never, ever lie to him kind of lands awkwardly when Clara began the two-parter by deceiving and betraying the Doctor in an attempt to force him to do something she knows he will never, ever consent to otherwise. This just makes her Clara look like a massive hypocrite, which pretty clearly wasn't the intention.

Also, aside from the mid-credits scene setting up the Christmas special, the end of the episode really comes across like Moffat wrote it as a potential end to the series, like he was worried the BBC were about to cancel it.

EDIT: Apparently Coleman had decided to leave at this point but then unexpectedly changed her mind, so that explains why the end feels like a final goodbye to Clara, but it still feels framed like it's also a potential farewell to the Doctor, what with all his talk about simply going home to Gallifrey and retiring.

Warthur fucked around with this message at 14:41 on Jan 2, 2024

Warthur
May 2, 2004



Barry Foster posted:

I agree, yeah.

Hoping for some more coherent stories in the rest of the season. Vibes is fine and all, and it was obviously knockabout Christmas fun, but Who is at its best when it has internal coherence within the story (the meta-myth, "canon" stuff is generally less important)

In principle I agree, if you're contradicting something said in a previous episode/serial that's a fine and honourable tradition, if you're contradicting stuff you said a few minutes ago it's time we sat you down and did a concussion check.

In the case of Church On Ruby Road I'm willing to believe at the moment that RTD's seeded stuff (like the Mrs Flood mystery and the identity of Ruby's mum) which will change how we see the episode once we get the answers.

Warthur
May 2, 2004



Infinitum posted:

Ruby comes off thick as a brick at the end, but I'm chalking that up to terrible writing.

Unfortunately they're doing a Beatles episode not a Jethro Tull one.

Warthur
May 2, 2004



Got to Last Christmas and I love it. I think it works because it starts out full goofy but then teases out darker ideas like the brain crabs, whereas stories like Kill the Moon or In the Forest of the Night start out with superfluously serious stories which just disintegrate into silliness.

Warthur
May 2, 2004



Open Source Idiom posted:

She's the same species as the aliens from The Quantum Possibility Engine, though it doesn't really matter. It's not even a cameo really, it's just a reference, like the Macra in New Earth.
Yeah, what's the deal with that one? Really comes across like in a first draft it was a "Macra cause car reliance to generate that tasty air pollution they love" story, but then it pivoted so the conclusion focused more on story arc hints/Face of Boe stuff, but the Macra-based stuff sort of stuck around in the revision process anyway.

Warthur
May 2, 2004



Detective No. 27 posted:

Mickey can easily have been killed off screen.

I will say, having just rewatched RTD era 1, I don’t think the Martha/Mickey pairing is that bad in hindsight. I remember most of the criticism was that they were written to got together because they were both black but I don’t think that holds up. I wasn’t keeping notes, but the only black couple I can even think of the entire era were Martha’s parents. Just about every couple in the show was interracial. In addition, they both had the weird trauma of having been spurned by The Doctor and Rose.

I think the bigger problem is that they barely interacted, and Martha already had a partner she seemed entirely happy with. It's a pointless tweak which seems to do nothing except give Mickey a consolation prize partner.

Warthur
May 2, 2004



PriorMarcus posted:

Isn't that just the opening of the Davros episode he wrote? Moffat doesn't seem the type to reuse an idea.
As Dabir points out, it happens in episode 1 of Genesis of the Daleks. You don't write for Doctor Who unless you're somewhat keen on reusing classic Who ideas...

(Also it was Davros in the handmine field in that episode.)

Bicyclops posted:

Honestly what Moffat needs most is an editor who can sand off some off some his bad habits, so assuming Davies actually does some redlines on stuff like sonic boner jokes, then he can come back once a year. I'll allow it.
Honestly, this is the thing. Most writers seem to only have one or two good Doctor Who stories in them per year. Both the RTD1 seasons and the first half of the Moffat run get into a situation where the showrunner's stories are either very good (because they're the person who best understands the big picture of what the show is going for at that time) or very bad (because trying to write and do showrunning at the same time is a hell of a task, there's a reason in the classic era the modern showrunner role was split between the producer and script editor) with not much in between.

That said I am now deep into Series 9 on my full watchthrough and it's very good, easily the best of the Moffat seasons I have seen, and he writes a bunch in it. So I don't rule out his capacity to suddenly come up with a fresh approach.

Warthur
May 2, 2004



Bicyclops posted:

Now that Doctor Who has the Disney money and they're doing spin-offs, pitch five Doctor Who spin-off ideas.
The Eighth Doctor Adventures. Deliberately shot in the style of a 1990s SF show.
Missy-ing Links. The hitherto-unexplored adventures of Missy.
Sapphire & Steel backdoor revival. Just have them cameo in one of the other shows and have their universe and the Whoniverse cross over.
Blake's 7 backdoor revival. Same principle as above, only now Paul Darrow's dead it's safe from being turned into The Avon Show.
Time Lord Notorious. The saga of a renegade Gallifreyan who took his time machine to the late 20th Century and became one of the biggest names in East Coast hip-hop.

Warthur
May 2, 2004



Holy poo poo, Series 9 is so so good. I've got to The Husbands of River Song in my watchthrough and you know what? I could go for a spin-off series where the concept is that it's about the Twelfth Doctor and River going on little adventures together during their 24 years of living together on Darillium (because you know they didn't just let the TARDIS gather dust in the corner unused during all that time), because the chemistry between them is far better than River/11 and on a par with/might be better than River/10.

Warthur
May 2, 2004



I am 99% convinced that "I'm an archaeologist from the future... I dug you up" is a quip which Moffat had wanted to give River Song for ages but never quite had the right story to use, but it really worked well here.

Also the only S9 story I'd say is below par is the Zygon one, which is basically weapons-grade centrism combined with an argument that living as your authentic self is an act of violence against society.

Warthur
May 2, 2004



Edward Mass posted:

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, there has not been a single episode of Doctor Who before or since as good as Heaven Sent. Yes, the Caves of Androzani, but that’s four separate episodes.

Heaven Sent is incredible but I think it lands as well as it does because of the legwork the entire Capaldi era does to that point to prepare you for it. The fourth wall narration, his interactions with Clara (and even her catchphrases), all the confession dial stuff so far, the Hybrid hints, they all do a lovely job of setting up the storytelling toolkit the episode uses and it wouldn't land the same without them.

Warthur
May 2, 2004



I predict the Beatles thing is a fakeout and most of the action of the episode takes place a few years later, dealing with what really happened to Syd Barrett.

Warthur
May 2, 2004



Just got through the Monks trilogy in series 10. Loved Extremis but it's an episode that can foreshadow literally any threat and I thought The Lie of the Land was fantastic, but TPATEOTW seems pointless.

I kind of wonder whether Whithouse delivered Lie of the Land first, then Moffat decided to bulk out the running order by writing prequels.

Warthur
May 2, 2004



Watched World Enough and Time/The Doctor Falls and I mostly love it, but I think there were two big missed opportunities:

- No Cyberman designs from the intervening versions between The Tenth Planet and Rise of the Cybermen in the waves sent up.

- It kind of felt like the end of the story should have included the Doctor enacting a cunning plan to invert the ship (whilst redirecting the thrusters so the ship didn't fall immediately into the black hole) - so that the Cybermen would no longer have the advantage of faster-paced development and it would take longer between waves for them to regain their strength.

Warthur
May 2, 2004



Speaking of Pertwee, I got to Arachnids in the UK, in which 13 and the fam run into a Green Death situation and then just... realise the spiders are going to die off anyway, declare that a humane, natural death via slow suffocation is preferable to a quick death by gunshot, and just sort of wander off without bothering to address the underlying problem.

Ma'am, 10 regenerations ago you were clowning on an AI who was doing the exact same thing here and now you won't stick around to thwart an obnoxious Trumpalike you don't particularly care for? Explain please.

Warthur fucked around with this message at 13:39 on Jan 12, 2024

Warthur
May 2, 2004



Open Source Idiom posted:

Speaking of dumb plans.

I feel like 90% of the Master's plans are:

1. Team up with a group of aliens
2. Do something dumb that gets my space/time boyfriend/girlfriend to notice me
2. Oh whoops we don't have a real stage three those aliens have betrayed me help help
3. My space/time boyfriend/girlfriend saves me.

Series 8 finale is in some respects kind of silly but I do like the way Missy is like "Look, Doctor! I made an alien army which wouldn't turn on me for once! Do you want to play with them?"

Warthur
May 2, 2004



My recommended episodes list:

Hartnell: The Time Meddler. The Hartnell era is odd because in its early stages the show is still figuring out what it is (and making some significant character changes to the Doctor as it does so), and in the back half of his era his health problems poleaxed his ability to fully participate in many serials. But this is from the thin slice of time after the initial teething troubles had been ironed out and before his health collapsed and it's excellent.

Troughton: Even though Power of the Daleks is only available with animated visuals set to the original soundtrack, it's still a banger of a story and also a tremendously important one because it's the first post-regeneration story, and therefore has Troughton tackling one of the biggest challenges any Doctor actor has faced (because if he didn't win the audience over here, that'd be it for the show). The Mind Robber, The Invasion, and The War Games are all from his final season, with his best companion lineup, and each end up being distinctly different and are (bar for some bits of The Invasion which have been pasted over with animation) all complete.

Pertwee: The Ambassadors of Death, Terror of the Autons, The Daemons, The Sea Devils, and The Time Warrior are all iconic stuff - you've got conspiracy thrillers, the Master's debut, Quatermass folk horror, James Bond on the high seas, and the first and best Sontaran story all there, and that lot will give you a taste of each of his companions at that.

Tom Baker: Lots of picks from this period because Tom was in the role for an age and it includes some of the best eras of the show. The span of time with Philip Hinchcliffe producing and Robert Holmes script editing is rightly revered; gems from that include Genesis of the Daleks, Terror of the Zygons, Pyramids of Mars, The Brain of Morbius, The Seeds of Doom, The Masque of Mandragora, The Hand of Fear, The Deadly Assassin, The Face of Evil, and The Robots of Death. Yes, I am just recommending the bulk of entire seasons at you, the era is that good.

The next phase of the show had Graham Williams as producer and it was somewhat shakier, but it had some gems still like Image of the Fendahl, The Ribos Operation, The Pirate Planet, and City of Death; the latter two were written by Douglas Adams right as his talent was coming to the boil and it shows.

His last season has a bit of a different approach, largely because it's the first season to be produced by John Nathan-Turner, but I think some of the stories in it are great. The Leisure Hive was a big landmark in shifting to a new production style, State of Decay feels like a lost gem from the Hinchcliffe era, Warriors' Gate is intriguingly trippy and Logopolis sees out the era with a bang.

Davison: Quality control went south a bit during this time, in part because early on Eric Saward became the script editor and, to put it kindly, was thrust into a role he wasn't ready for. Saward did write The Visitation before he became script editor, and that's rather charming, and I'll also go to bat for stories like Snakedance, Enlightenment, The Awakening, and The Caves of Androzani. (Caveat on Snakedance is that it's a sequel to Kinda, which is kinda alright but not top tier.)

Colin Baker: This era goes directly into the shitter, in part because Saward and JNT were working at cross-purposes and everyone else ended up collateral damage. Baker's best material is apparently on Big Finish audios. Vengeance On Varos creeps towards being OK without actually being good.

Terror of the Vervoids is by Pip and Jane Baker, who people seem to dislike, but to be fair as writers working in this era in particular the circumstances were never going to paint their work in its best light, and I like how Vervoids provides a nice little classic Base Under Siege story. A wise man (cough Chibnall cough) accused it of being cliched, unchallenging, and involving lots of running around in corridors with silly monsters, but in an era when the show was largely producing dreadful material turning in a gentle unchallenging nostalgia piece that's mostly alright counts as a victory in my book. The main problem with it is that it's embedded in the greater plot structure of The Trial of a Time Lord; the latest blu-ray release actually includes a standalone version which edits out the trial stuff, including the bits of the story which are lies embedded by the conspiracy that wants the Doctor to get convicted, and is improved for it.

And if you like super cheesy stuff you can just giggle at, Timelash is a hoot, especially when Paul Darrow is onscreen because he just chews on the scenery and plays his character like "What if Avon wasn't actually as clever as he thought he was?", which turns out to be the perfect choice.

McCoy: This was a very, very good era, in part because the show couldn't afford to do anything but commit 100% to making the best stories it could with a very minimal budget; if they ever settled for merely "alright" they'd have been canned even before they actually did. Recommended stories include Remembrance of the Daleks, The Happiness Patrol, The Greatest Show In the Galaxy, and the entirety of Season 26 (Battlefield, Ghost Light, The Curse of Fenric, and Survival), which for my money was the best season the classic show ever put out.

McGann: Again, his best stuff is on the Big Finish audios apparently. The TV movie is fun, but only if you're nostalgic to the sort of mid-to-lower-tier filmed-in-Canada SF shows that got put out in the mid-1990s, like that misguided Robocop show or Sliders or something.

Ecclestone: His season, like a lot of RTD's Who, slams between glorious nonsense and unbearable trash in a giddy fashion, but I think if you saw Rose, Dalek, Father's Day, and Bad Wolf/The Parting of the Ways you'd have a really good handle on his stuff.

Tennant: S2 has the run of episodes from School Reunion to The Satan Pit where his take on the character really comes together. S3 feels shakier, but The Runaway Bride is wonderful, Human Nature/The Family of Blood may well be the best story Tennant appeared in, and Blink was excellent. S4 I think is his strongest, with Partners In Crime, Fires of Pompeii, Planet of the Ood, and the run from The Doctor's Daughter to Midnight being great stuff.

Smith: His seasons are not to my taste, not least because the season arcs become more prominent than "here's a catchphrase which will make sense by the end" and I found the arcs very samey and solipsistic. However, The Eleventh Hour is a glorious glimpse of what might have been, and the era did strike gold with Amy's Choice, The Doctor's Wife, The Girl Who Waited, Cold War, and Hide.

Capaldi: Ended up being my favourite Doctor, but it took a whole to get there. S8 is his shakiest one, but gave us Deep Breath, Into the Dalek, Mummy On the Orient Express, and Last Christmas. Season 9 is a further refinement and gives bangers like The Magician's Apprentice/The Witch's Familiar, The Woman Who Lived (watch The Girl Who Died before that one for essential context), and the run of episodes from Face the Raven through to The Husbands of River Song. Season 10 may be the best thing the revived show's done to date, with only the "Monks Trilogy" (Extremis/The Pyramid At the End of the World/The Lie of the Land) being shaky and even then I think Extremis is very very good and I really don't mind The Lie of the Land.

Whittaker: Demons of the Punjab and It Takes You Away both hint at potential directions for this era which could have been grand. Instead, Chibnall doubled down on his worst instincts and habits for the rest of the era, with awful results.

Fourteennant: Honestly, all the 60th Anniversary specials are a lot of fun, and you can take in the entire era with just three episodes, so I wouldn't unrecommend any of them.

Warthur
May 2, 2004



Timby posted:

Y'know, I wouldn't blame him for not wanting to return to the show just because half the drat fanbase can't seem to remember that his name is Eccleston.

It's rude to mandela effect people, what is even this timeline, why is Trump not in jail?

Warthur
May 2, 2004



lines posted:

Yeah, that makes sense. Though I would say in 2011 "transvestite" was a reasonably normal word to use (though people would probably use it in a way that distinguished from transsexuals). Like, as in, I am saying this as a British trans person - it's not a term I've ever identified with but I'm fairly sure I know some people who at the very least did in the recent past, and I wouldn't necessarily consider use of it problematic now - though it depends how he was using it for sure. The misogyny sounds pretty unambiguous though! (As you say, could very much be a character view thing, but yes I agree at best that is definitely a misogynistic character.)
My understanding from people who've read deeper into the series is that the protagonist gets better at that stuff over time, in a way which either suggests it was meant to be a character thing or indicates Aaronovitch has been getting better at it.

Action Jacktion posted:

Supposedly the script had the Doctor threatening someone with a knife but Tom Baker thought that was out of character, so he just said "Why don't I use a jelly baby? They aren't supposed to know what it is anyway."
A good tweak, especially given how (spoilering for Hollismason's benefit) it has one of the Fourth Doctor's archetypal features becoming a thing of fear and horror for the locals, which fits the story wonderfully.

Warthur
May 2, 2004



The Hinchcliffe era peaked with Robots of Death and even if Talons were not massively racist (due to simply regurgitating Fu Manchu stuff uncritically) it would not be anywhere near as good as Robots of Death.

Warthur
May 2, 2004



keep punching joe posted:

Little Britain was disgusting ableist, classist, and bigoted trash at the time and I don't get why it was popular. Just horrible and unfunny. Not even 'edgy' yet still funny humour like on south park or wonder showzen. Just awful.

I'm glad matt lucas apologised for how poo poo it was.

I feel much less conflicted about liking Nardole now I know Lucas has distanced himself from that and apologised for it.

Warthur
May 2, 2004



My preferred solution is that every Time Lord has suppressed memories of being the Timeless Child because the Child got disintegrated as part of the process of propagating the capacity to regenerate. Tecteun reactivated those memories in hand-picked agents - one of whom was the Fugitive Doctor - so she could then use the residual memories of the brainwashing and whatnot she did on the Timeless Child to control them. The Fugitive Doctor was the last of these agents, whose defection was sufficiently disruptive that Tecteun decided to drop that angle, and if the Master had pushed back even further he'd have discovered that.

In other words, the Timeless Child is a body thetan attached to Time Lords, and that's why the Master lost all perspective when looking into it because it restimulated all his engrams.

Warthur
May 2, 2004



Random Stranger posted:

There's a real danger in long running media of fans taking it over and turning everything into canonizing in their awful fan theories and wallowing in past references. When RTD revived the show I was worried that something like that would happen, but instead he treated the show as something fresh and distinct, not even really acknowledging that the original series happened (instead of an abstract, "Oh, the Doctor's been out there doing stuff and fighting monsters" way) until the second season. Davies knew that the series had to be accessible and made a point of that.
A worthwhile point of comparison is Star Trek: Picard, which more or less turned into exactly that failure state in its third season. It got some traction, largely because the previous two seasons seemed to be driven by active hostility towards TNG rather than fannish reverence and it was a relief when season 3 didn't seem to actively hate the source material, but it's very much "fans smashing action figures together" in its approach.

Warthur
May 2, 2004



MikeJF posted:

Picard S3 and Lower Decks are both fans smashing their TNG action figures together, and one is fantastic (LDS) while the other is terrible.
Yeah, there's illustrative comparisons there and it's largely the difference between LDS having a fun new lens to put on all this stuff and Picard S3 just referencing old stuff in the hope of getting a Pavlovian response out of the viewer. There's no point to it other than "Here's Jean-Luc fighting the Borg again", just like there's no point to lots of Chibnall-Who from S12 onwards beyond "Here's us wheeling out that thing you like again".

In principle, regenerating the Doctor should be a grand way of keeping all that stuff fresh - because a new Doctor, especially if they have a new slate of companions, offers a new lens to put stuff through. But Chibnall didn't give Jodie enough meat to work with so we ended up with what we ended up with.

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Warthur
May 2, 2004



Gaz-L posted:

I mean, the Doctor is drawn to Ruby because she's an orphan with no knowledge of her birth family/origin. Like, RTD made it very explicit that he's Not Over It
Exactly. If the plan was to say "The 14th Doctor got over it so the 15th never ever has to think about it", then the stuff about 15 talking about being an orphan absolutely didn't belong in Church On Ruby Road.

There's a difference between "I have done therapy so I am not emotionally overwhelmed by my past trauma" and "I have done therapy so my past trauma can basically be treated as having never ever happened and never having potential relevance to stuff going on in the present" and it's pretty clear RTD is going for the former.

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